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Mulletproof

I don't carry smoke anymore.

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3 hours ago, inktomi19d said:

That game wasn’t fun for anyone but the DDs though. We had whole teams sitting and twiddling their thumbs behind walls of smoke with a no mans land in between. If I was in a DD back then, yeah, there was stuff to do, but in a CA or BB I basically had to wait for the DDs on one side or the other to screw up and die before the game could start. WG needed to add some way to break the stalemates; the DDs were the only ones doing anything.

The game has changed with the smoke firing nerf.  You remember all the people on the forum saying we can nerf radar when we nerf smoke???  We don't have the smoke excuse anymore, now the players are sitting and twiddling their thumbs because their DDs won't push up to initiate engagements by spotting and playing the objectives. 

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4 minutes ago, Slimeball91 said:

I think WG will change radar at some point.  Sadly it will probably be after they flood the game with so much radar that it brings the game to a complete standstill. 

After the season of T10 ranked WG will be able to see how dominate of a force radar is, and that it raises the skill floor of DDs to almost absurd levels.  Also, look at the last season of CW.  It was dominated be radar and now WG had to allow more BBs in the matches to contend with the overabundance of radar cruisers.  The writing is on the wall, more radar is not the way forward.  

Agreed while i don't believe radar is a bad thing in this game i do believe they re giving it to every ship willy nilly without having anything to counter it. almost everyship that comes out is now getting radar it seems.

 

For everyone else. Radar has been around. yes it sucks but if you are playing a high tier DD and you don't know radar ships and ranges well that's your fault if they've been spotted. Yes i know there are times that you get radared by a ship that hasn't been spotted yet and it sucks but i'd rather be radared and be at a distance away and be able to WASD my way out of it. yes it sucks at times but it's a counter to DD's smoke. should ranges or time radar is up be decreased? possibly. Should WG stop using radar on almost every new ship that is released...YES

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2 hours ago, enderland07 said:

The percentage of players I see announce or discuss their radars in chat is approximately 0%, which is unfortunate as it's a good way to get the decent/good players on your team to support you with fire.

Something like, "going to radar A in 10 seconds" means I will nearly always support you with fire if it's feasible. If you just randomly pop radar just because, I have potentially a 10 second slower reaction time.

I see radar announce in chat all the time and i do it all the time and if you have never seen it then you don't play enough high tier battles and seeing as DD is your least played class it tends to get overlooked.

And in ranked there as not been a single battle where radar is not announce or discuss when radar is present in game.

The team want the DDs to be at the front to screen and be the eyes but more and more DDs cant be at the front of a push because they will simply die from radar, so it slows the whole push down because they don't want to push without the DDs in the front and it not just as easy as saying shoot that radar ship and it will be dead because the radar ship is well and truly tucked away behind an island safe from gun fire.

 

So the team has to be brave enough to push around and flank without the DD to have a chance of killing the radar ship/ships before the DDs can get back to the front and most of us know that the last thing most high tier players do.

Edited by Final8ty

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11 hours ago, Flashtirade said:

The act netted me exactly 0 credits and 0 xp.

That's because it's impossible for a computer program to perceive and interpret such things on the fly, if at all. I could lay all the smoke in the world for or near friendly ships, but it's pointless if they waste it by firing inside it at critical distances and revealing themselves to the world, or simply not getting/staying inside it in the first place.

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12 hours ago, Elysion said:

I see. Ive seen some people imply its actually a bad idea to use smoke this way, but ive had two occurrences in the past week where smoking a friendly zao who was trying to maneuver to a flank had collapsed what was a fairly effective enemy defense.

CAs are my first priority for smoke.

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11 hours ago, A_Crying_Hipster said:

You're not playing DD correctly if you are getting in range of radar ships. If all you tunnel vision your play style to be is, "I must charge caps and sit in them until capped," then you won't learn how to DD. Div with some unicum DD players and you'll either learn the right way and adapt or you will hate the right way so much you'll quit again. 

If you're a gun boat DD, you play it like a cruiser. If you're an invisitorping DD, you should be flanking far to the side of caps so you can spot for your team while simultaneously identifying where the radar ships are. Then, based on that Intel, you continue to spot for your team and nuke from range with your torps. 

Caps are strategically vulnerable locations on the map. Better to surround them and nuke the enemy that charges them like fish in a barrel, THEN cap after. 

If that fails, it has nothing to do with it being a bad tactic and everything to do with a massive skill imbalance not in your team's favor. 

99.9% of the player base never even takes a mental note of the number and type of radar ships the enemy has during the loading screen. Even subtle tasks like that is what separates the unicums from the scrubs. 

That's how i play and i also get the most moaned for  because the majority of the player base simply just don't understand it.

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8 hours ago, Lensar said:

Use your crappy IJN smoke to drop screens for your radar cruiser teammates on your way towards the cap where you'll be punched repeatedly in the face, as is your job as an IJN DD.

:Smile_great: 

Edited by Final8ty

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13 hours ago, CLUCH_CARGO said:

DD's/any other ship that park in Smoke deserve all the firepower raining down upon them.

Sounds like sour grapes to me.

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3 hours ago, Elo_J_Fudpucker said:

Smoke... we are talking about smoke.. 

The point is that there are thousands of people that make it work for them... 

95% of the time when im radared im not in smoke or anywhere near smoke.

Just being on a cap will trigger radar, just detecting the radar ship will  trigger radar, no smoke needed to trigger radar.

And most battles if there is going to be a DD alive it is me at the end of the battle  because most do not make it work for them.

Edited by Final8ty
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7 hours ago, inktomi19d said:

They used to have different icons. I wish they would go back to that. 

Yeah... I feel like a muppet getting chased by a Z52 and popping smoke after the detected notification goes off only to find out it was actually a DM and the Z hadn't even popped his hydro yet. 

I'm not sure if there's a particular balancing reason why they don't have it more distinctive? 

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15 hours ago, CLUCH_CARGO said:

DD's/any other ship that park in Smoke deserve all the firepower raining down upon them.

Yeah how dare they use a mechanic that allows them to deal minor damage to battleships without being instantly deleted in response.

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Just now, KiyoSenkan said:

Yeah how dare they use a mechanic that allows them to deal minor damage to battleships without being instantly deleted in response.

Interesting that ships with smoke were balanced around having smoke, then that was thrown out of the window.

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Smoke is for:

  • Supporting my allies with cover
  • Running away from a dangerous situation
  • Giving me somewhere to shoot my guns without getting detected
  • Setting up traps and/or luring an enemy away from battle

Fubuki, HSF Harekaze, Asashio, Fletcher, Shimakaze can all do it

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3 hours ago, SavageTactical said:

Sounds like sour grapes to me.

Not sour grapes it is just a tool and when used wrong {Spamming from} the Player deserves to be killed for his/her stupidity. Ships at sea do not stop movement {ever hear of sitting ducks?} Stupid play deserves instant rebuttal. This is why I say those who sit in smoke deserve to be fired upon by all who can shoot. Radar makes this very evident. Ships that have Smoke also have speed and maneuverability two very important tools that are ignored by those who  sit still. 

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When I first switched Smoke off my Tashkent and took the repair party, the first game I took it in and announced this, an allied Missouri that spawned near me sank me. He then announced in chat that he sank a worthless destroyer.

 

I agree with the OP, but be prepared for entitled, selfish players to do stuff like this to you in response.

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And the very best part of today... EVERYBODY gets radar. The stack of cued Clevelands is miles long.
Unintended consquences, lol.

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5 hours ago, Slimeball91 said:

The game has changed with the smoke firing nerf.  You remember all the people on the forum saying we can nerf radar when we nerf smoke???  We don't have the smoke excuse anymore, now the players are sitting and twiddling their thumbs because their DDs won't push up to initiate engagements by spotting and playing the objectives. 

Ha! I know,  right?

This was never about smoke. It was always about players who didn't want to pay attention to where DDs were and where torps might be coming from.

5 hours ago, DarknessxRisenx said:

Radar has been around. yes it sucks but if you are playing a high tier DD and you don't know radar ships and ranges well that's your fault if they've been spotted. Yes i know there are times that you get radared by a ship that hasn't been spotted yet and it sucks but i'd rather be radared and be at a distance away and be able to WASD my way out of it. yes it sucks at times but it's a counter to DD's smoke.

It's not about not knowing the ranges, it's about what it does to the overall gameplay.

Seriously, I can't stress enough how this was literally the worst mechanic in online gaming history.

Before radar: DDs would frequently knife fight each other if they were at an off-cap or if the teams weren't in position. If teams were in position, DDs would decide if they felt like they had enough support to go hard against the enemy DD. The weaker DD or the one that felt they had the least amount of support would withdraw, often ceding the point. DDs would then continue to try get each other spotted, while remaining as unspotted or safe themselves.

After radar: DDs sail to the flank and look for 10-12k of open area between them and any possible hiding places for radar cruisers. Teamates [edited] for DDs to spot or cap. DD tries to sail right on the edge of detection range while hoping to spot the radar cruiser so BBs can shoot it. DD eventually gets radared and immediately tries to turn and run out of radar range. Meanwhile, everyone on the enemy team lines up to punch that DD repeatedly in the face until he dies or moves out of radar range.

Seriously, playing a DD is signing up to let the other team repeatedly punch you in the face at the start of a match.

So what do DDs do? They either a) Play it super cautious and go wide on the flank, providing limited spotting and no capping support to the team, or b) Yolo forward into the cap or towards the enemy, because f--- it, if you can be radared and repeatedly punched in the face by the enemy team anytime at the start of the match without warning, might as well just yolo and switch to another ship once yours is sunk.

Of course, none of this takes into account the YY, which is a highly mobile, concealed, radar platform with a very short cool down time. This counters every pathetic argument that has ever been made about "know which ships have radar" or "Pay attention and know where the radar ships are," since this ship can literally be anywhere, and it can radar you without ever being seen itself. I want to level one up so I can abuse it and make people quite the game, but I am so disgusted with WGs inability to recognize what they've done with the game, and the fact that they keep doubling down on by giving every single ship in the game radar, that I just can't being myself to care enough to grind up to the YY.

I'm not convinced there was ever any problems with DDs, other than ignorant players who didn't want to pay attention, but even if there was, there were plenty of ways to address the problem without the addition of radar. Excuse me, without all the IJN DD nerfs, IJN torp nerfs, RPF addition, AND radar, which of course, were all added within the same month, because...omg DD's were just that out of control.

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Thinking about it, if you wanted to reduce radar in the game, make it share a slot with the healing consumable. That would create an opportunity cost, and force a choice between two styles of play: a cruiser could either zig-zag at max range and spam HE against BBs (in which case they almost always take some return fire and need the heal to keep going), or they can hug their island waifu and illuminate DDs. 

Part of my thinking is that the complaints seem to be more focused on higher tier radar, and higher tier CAs tend to be in better shape as far as stats go. But Baltimore (or New Orleans when it was tier 8), Atlanta, and Indianapolis are not very powerful ships anyway, and the radar seems to give them a bit more niche utility. People can make those ships work, but even DD-hunting is risky for them since it puts them in a place where they will take damage, and if they don’t get deleted they will still be left hurting for the rest of the match. 

I'm a fan of radar when it helps cruisers to be relevant (and honestly, the max-range HE-spammers are not relevant to the outcome of most matches). But I can see where it’s too common in some tiers, and every cruiser in the game which has a heal was already doing well enough without radar. So the choice should be either repair party or surveillance radar, not both. 

Bonus points if that rule applies to the Missouri. 

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18 hours ago, Dictonary said:

. Just keep in mind which radar ship went to which flank and you will be fine.

This -- or fairly similar wording -- has been mentioned in several posts in this thread.  Maybe I'm misunderstanding what you and others here are implying.  This idea seems to assume non-aggressive DD play.   You are waiting to figure out where the Radar cruisers are going and therefore are not aggressively scouting and pushing caps at the start of a match.  It implies that you're waiting for someone else on your team to stumble into radar zones of control and someone else identifying red cruiser locations.    

Aggressive DD play is by default filled with risk.  I don't think that you can reasonably avoid the risk of being caught by radar.  To me, the discussion should focus on DD tactics that assume you will be occasionally spotted by radar.  

Edited by Dr_Dirt

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Yea watched KOS stream.. notices everyone was driving Gearings with their 16 and a half K torps that don't get spotted from orbit with the occasional Z thrown in but Shimakaze was notable by it's absence.  Big hint about just how useful shimmy's smoke and torp are considered. by top players.. or to put it another way.. at tier 10 Shimmy is dangerous but not competitive.  IJN DD's do fine up to the Yugumo and the tier IX and X second DD line ships with be nasty knee biters when they appear and will be used in competition play but for no tier X comp meta, the shimmy is unworthy of serious consideration.  I gives up to much capability, it lacks capability, and it torps are too easily detected on to long of a reload timer.  Give me a tier 10 version of a Yugumo with TRB please, or make the Yugumo tier X, because Yugumo as it is right now is a better tier X boat then the Shimmy, aand it gets the tactical flexibility of running TRB.

But on the IJN DD"s with the option to dump smoke for TRB yea you do it, because if you don't have smoke your less likely to stick your ship in where it will be insta deleted.  With out smoke you play more carefully, you work the edge of detection more exactly.   And running with out smoke is not selfish.  Not any more.  Selfish is cruiser and BB who crawl behind island that block and ability to fire on any thing the DD illuminates while capping so the opposing ship have an unopposed shot at the DD which is why so many DD BUY IT! so early in the game.  It's not that they don't have ships close nuff to support its that they don't have ships POSITIONED properly to provide support.  The BB and the cruisers move defensively with no thought whatsoever at where they may need to be able to shoot, and rare indeed is the consideration of moving where you can get clear shots and anything even looks funny at the capping DD on your side.

SO frankly if NOT packing smoke improves your game, then don't run smoke.  

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16 minutes ago, Dr_Dirt said:

This -- or fairly similar wording -- has been mentioned in several posts in this thread.  

"Git gud" is the default response of people who don't want to admit radar causes more problems than it solves, just because they enjoy using it to ruin the game for other people.

 

Funnily enough, smoke has been nerfed a few times, and you'll notice that "You can nerf radar when Smoke gets nerfed!" has stopped being the go-to defense.

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For everyone else. Radar has been around. yes it sucks but if you are playing a high tier DD and you don't know radar ships and ranges well that's your fault if they've been spotted.

I can keep track of, say, 3 radar ships; but when there is 5-6 (i.e. multiple radar ships per cap), I find keeping track of their locations/cooldowns pretty much impossible.

Perhaps anecdotal, but games with many radar ships tend to be the most passive, as even the destroyers camp.

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15 hours ago, Vangm94 said:

Smoke is for:

  • Supporting my allies with cover
  • Running away from a dangerous situation
  • Giving me somewhere to shoot my guns without getting detected
  • Setting up traps and/or luring an enemy away from battle

Fubuki, HSF Harekaze, Asashio, Fletcher, Shimakaze can all do it

You can do not one of those things if they have radar. Considering that we might assume Tier 7,8,9,10 battles for those dds this means that most/all of the cruisers you see in battle now, have radar. 

Put another way: Cleveland has radar out to 9km. So my smoke is effective when i'm sitting >9km away. 

It's hard to be >9km away from the Cleve when the redteam has 4 of them. Oh, and they see you first so you're never really sure. 

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