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KarlWithAHat

Tiered of Graf Zeppelin. (Please Balance)

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This could just be me. But I am getting tiered of being One Shot in the first minute by Graf Zeppelin's.  This has happened to me multiple times in many of my Tier 8 Battleships. Where i load up a game, start moving my ship then see all the Carrier's planes gunning straight for me. I maneuver as much as i can but it doesn't matter, and 3 air strikes later my tier 8 Battleship is dead with no damage done and a lose of credits.  I have been one shot with both Graf Zeppelin's load-outs, the 3 dive bombs and the 2-1 dive bombs & torp bombs.  I know Wargaming is working on new carrier play and that it is coming soon. But this is [edited] of a high degree. That this premium ship is an easy button on killing equal or higher tier ships, with no chance of player skill working.

Please, please Wargaming. See this and at least acknowledge that something is in the works to improve this. Cause it is not fun to join a game just to be killed in the first 30 seconds and loose credits, because there was not a single thing you can do.

Anyone else feel free to voice your thoughts, or let me know what someone can do.  Thanks

 

shot-18.05.29_20.12.50-0905.jpg

Edited by KarlWithAHat
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15 minutes ago, KarlWithAHat said:

This could just be me. But I am getting tiered of being One Shot in the first minute by Graf Zeppelin's.  This has happened to me multiple times in many of my Tier 8 Battleships. Where i load up a game, start moving my ship then see all the Carrier's planes gunning straight for me. I maneuver as much as i can but it doesn't matter, and 3 air strikes later my tier 8 Battleship is dead with no damage done and a lose of credits.  I have been one shot with both Graf Zeppelin's load-outs, the 3 dive bombs and the 2-1 dive bombs & torp bombs.  I know Wargaming is working on new carrier play and that it is coming soon. But this is [edited] of a high degree. That this premium ship is an easy button on killing equal or higher tier ships, with no chance of player skill working.

Please, please Wargaming. See this and at least acknowledge that something is in the works to improve this. Cause it is not fun to join a game just to be killed in the first 30 seconds and loose credits, because there was not a single thing you can do.

Anyone else feel free to voice your thoughts, or let me know what someone can do.  Thanks

 

shot-18.05.29_20.12.50-0905.jpg

What BB were you in? I'm wondering because you only shot down one plane. That usually spells Tirpitz, Amagi, or Bismarck. I don't want to belabor this but some BBs have really bad AA, and those will attract planes like flies to a corpse. Every CV with AP bombs knows you can delete them and they come after them preferentially if they are too far from allies.  Several T8 BBs have lousy AA. That's a choice you make when you play one. You either have to live with the fact that CVs will hunt you down and delete you at will, or hug a CA or CL with decent AA. Or play something with better defenses.

I don't know what happened in your fights but most of the time when people say there was nothing they could do about it there was actually stuff they could do to make it harder. It's like Pensacola sailing broadside then complaining how it got deleted by a BB. Last time I played in a Tirp and Enterprise showed up I became best friends with the Baltimore and the NC on my side. Where one of them went, I went until the plane threat left. 

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9 minutes ago, ExploratorOne said:

You know they have spent almost a year reworking the Graf?

And in that time it has gone from an unfinished mess to a different type of unfinished mess.

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11 minutes ago, ExploratorOne said:

You know they have spent almost a year reworking the Graf?

That just makes the failure even more colossal.

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Just now, Taichunger said:

That just makes the failure even more colossal.

^ Pretty much this.

The whole AP bomb thing is stupid to begin with, but to put out another sickly OP premium carrier and call it good? Money > game play.....:Smile_amazed:

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4 minutes ago, Tzarevitch said:

What BB were you in? I'm wondering because you only shot down one plane. That usually spells Tirpitz, Amagi, or Bismarck. I don't want to belabor this but some BBs have really bad AA, and those will attract planes like flies to a corpse. Every CV with AP bombs knows you can delete them and they come after them preferentially if they are too far from allies.  Several T8 BBs have lousy AA. That's a choice you make when you play one.

 

Last time I played in a Tirp and Enterprise showed up I became best friends with the Baltimore and the NC on my side. Where one of them went, I went until the plane threat left. 

Shouldnt have to make that choice. The possibility should not exist.

This advice makes me laugh. In midgame one is often alone. In the endgame one is almost always alone, with AA degraded from HE. 

Its not possible to avoid aloneness. If you are in Tirp or really any BB, you want to be where you can support the cap and tank for cruisers. But you cant if the P2W GZ is present.

"Lets reduce camping and lemming trains" say the devs. Then they give us GZ which necessitates both.

CVs need their own mode. That simple.

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46 minutes ago, Tzarevitch said:

What BB were you in? I'm wondering because you only shot down one plane. That usually spells Tirpitz, Amagi, or Bismarck. I don't want to belabor this but some BBs have really bad AA, and those will attract planes like flies to a corpse. Every CV with AP bombs knows you can delete them and they come after them preferentially if they are too far from allies.  Several T8 BBs have lousy AA. That's a choice you make when you play one. You either have to live with the fact that CVs will hunt you down and delete you at will, or hug a CA or CL with decent AA. Or play something with better defenses.

I don't know what happened in your fights but most of the time when people say there was nothing they could do about it there was actually stuff they could do to make it harder. It's like Pensacola sailing broadside then complaining how it got deleted by a BB. Last time I played in a Tirp and Enterprise showed up I became best friends with the Baltimore and the NC on my side. Where one of them went, I went until the plane threat left. 

It was a Tirpitz, I do play German BB's. And I know there AA was not the best. But this was in the first 2 minutes of the game. And I was deployed by myself on the flank. So I did not have time to meet up with any AA CA or CL.

It was a game i get 1 salvo off and then deleted by something i have no hope of stopping. I literally got 10 km in my ship then was removed. Don't know how i could play that different. And if i get killed for sailing broadside on to a battleship, then i get what i deserve. I made a mistake and my skill, or lack of got me killed, that's fair. I don't think it is fair that this carrier can delete me and no amount of skill from me will help stop that.

Edited by KarlWithAHat
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24 minutes ago, Taichunger said:

Shouldnt have to make that choice. The possibility should not exist.

This advice makes me laugh. In midgame one is often alone. In the endgame one is almost always alone, with AA degraded from HE. 

Its not possible to avoid aloneness. If you are in Tirp or really any BB, you want to be where you can support the cap and tank for cruisers. But you cant if the P2W GZ is present.

"Lets reduce camping and lemming trains" say the devs. Then they give us GZ which necessitates both.

CVs need their own mode. That simple.

Actually that is very much a choice you should have to make. The same way you take steps to protect yourself against DDs, you take steps to protect yourself against planes. I have never understood why BBs will happily use tactics and rely on allies to protect against  being torpedoed by DDs but the thought of doing the same to deal with planes is absolutely anathema. 

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4 minutes ago, KarlWithAHat said:

It was a Tirpitz, I do play German BB's. And I know there AA was not the best. But this was in the first 2 minutes of the game. And I was deployed by myself on the flank. So I did not have time to meet up with any AA CA or CL.

It was a game i get 1 salvo off and then deleted by something i have no hope of stopping. I literally got 10 km in my ship then was removed. Don't know how i could play that different. And if i get killed for sailing broadside on to a battleship, then i get what i deserve. I made a mistake and my skill, or lack of got me killed, that's fair. I don't think it is fair that this carrier can delete me and no amount of skill from me will help stop that.

I can tell you, Tirpitz's AA is the worst. When I played my Enterprise I went after them preferentially if they moved too far from allied AA cover. If they stayed close to allied AA I left them alone. It isn't worth it to CVs to lose a ton of planes flying into the hornet's nest after a BB that is well protected. They'll go after the low hanging fruit who is sailing off by himself. 

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1 hour ago, ExploratorOne said:

You know they have spent almost a year reworking the Graf?

You also now they've spent over two years trying to get CVs as a whole balanced, and look at what we have to show for that. It doesn't matter how long the monkey pounds on it with his hammer; the car isn't going to get fixed.

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But the Tirpitz is a premium ship, surely they cant be one shotted by Ap dive bombers? Unfortunately they can, and has happened to me twice. Last game at tier 9 in a Tirp with enemy cv Lex I called myself as a target....BUT spawned next to two Missous!! Yay I was safe but shortly into the game our Alsace was deleted....I don't even usually drive BB but this seems unfair, and they can (Midway) wreck Des even with defaa...

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47 minutes ago, Happy668 said:

agree with OP, GZ is god mode in steroids

Can’t really understand how slow, uptiered bombers are destroying higher tiered ships; especially so early in the game.

(-)

Don’t worry; soon carriers will be nerfed into oblivion by the so-called rework; and the oft delayed movment towards getting all destroyers concealment ‘buffed’ to 20 or so kilometers, so they won’t be able to one-shot things in the first minutes of a game, can resume. :cap_haloween:

Edited by Estimated_Prophet

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5 minutes ago, Estimated_Prophet said:

Can’t really understand how slow, uptiered bombers are destroying higher tiered ships; especially so early in the game.

Answer: Extremely accurate dive bombers that are minimally affected by DF dispersion-wise (They are still accurate even when in “panic” mode), which drop AP bombs that will decimate or even sink ships if they have over 30 mm of deck armor. Yeah. Basically, when the AP dive bombers reach you, pray to RNGesus.

Note: The minimum thickness of the armor for GZ’s AP bombs to have their full damage potential is 35 mm, which is greater than 30 mm but this is satified by the citadel deck armor or the other deck armor underneath the main deck, giving  higher effective armor thickness.

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21 minutes ago, Dictonary said:

Answer: Extremely accurate dive bombers that are minimally affected by DF dispersion-wise (They are still accurate even when in “panic” mode), which drop AP bombs that will decimate or even sink ships if they have over 30 mm of deck armor. Yeah. Basically, when the AP dive bombers reach you, pray to RNGesus.

Note: The minimum thickness of the armor for GZ’s AP bombs to have their full damage potential is 35 mm, which is greater than 30 mm but this is satified by the citadel deck armor or the other deck armor underneath the main deck, giving  higher effective armor thickness.

Thanks.

Never wanted anything like that as a CV driver. I would have been happy just to have dive bombers that would cause SOME damage; as opposed to the entire squad completely missing, or doing nothing more than useless, often temporary module damage.

Such fun; trying to defend against a low health destroyer; attacking it one, two, or even three times with full, or nearly full squads; and not once scoring a single point of damage...

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If anything they should make concealment expert as a Tier II skill.  Bismarck has a lot of hard decisions if it wants to make its AA worth anything.  You give up concealment or torpedo acquisition if you want it.  Plus, is it really fair for a Tier IV Destroyer to fight a dedicated Clemson player with ten or more points?

Edited by Big_Tidday_Goth_GF

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13 minutes ago, Flashtirade said:

All this nonsense because they couldn't just make USN HE DBs more accurate.

GZ was a mistake.

The GZ itself wasn't a mistake,  but having AP bombers be that accurate from any angle with that low of an arming time requiring that little of armor TO arm however, was.  And then you roll that into a ship that has the highest damaging torpedo bombers in game along with a series of gimmicks...the only reason its not a bigger deal than what it is,  is because its all about to change.  I am a fan of CV's but the GZ is too much,  even if it will only hold that title for a few months before the changes hit.

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2 hours ago, Tzarevitch said:

Actually that is very much a choice you should have to make. The same way you take steps to protect yourself against DDs, you take steps to protect yourself against planes. I have never understood why BBs will happily use tactics and rely on allies to protect against  being torpedoed by DDs but the thought of doing the same to deal with planes is absolutely anathema. 

I protect myself from DDs by playing cautiously and adjusting my movements, which is all fine and dandy, I can only protect myself against CV by either enter a lemming train, or if I use a bunch of mods and captain points which would otherwise be completely useless and my skill is irrelevant, that's not dandy at all. And don't forget some ships just don't have good AA regardless of build.

Quote

If anything they should make concealment expert as a Tier II skill.  Bismarck has a lot of hard decisions if it wants to make its AA worth anything.  You give up concealment or torpedo acquisition if you want it.  Plus, is it really fair for a Tier IV Destroyer to fight a dedicated Clemson player with ten or more points?

Agreed, CE is way too important and everything is forced to take it regardless of what build you're aiming for. It's on the level of Situational Awareness except it costs 4 whole points.

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3 minutes ago, Palladia said:

The GZ itself wasn't a mistake,  but having AP bombers be that accurate from any angle with that low of an arming time requiring that little of armor TO arm however, was.  And then you roll that into a ship that has the highest damaging torpedo bombers in game along with a series of gimmicks...the only reason its not a bigger deal than what it is,  is because its all about to change.  I am a fan of CV's but the GZ is too much,  even if it will only hold that title for a few months before the changes hit.

I was referring to the design of GZ as a whole, which you elaborated on, but I do think the starting point for these issues was the devs trying to introduce AP bombs as a balancing mechanic instead of just buffing the USN HE ones.

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Don't wanna get your Bismarck or Tirpitz deleted by GZ? Make friends with a Saipan.

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2 hours ago, KarlWithAHat said:

It was a Tirpitz, I do play German BB's. And I know there AA was not the best. But this was in the first 2 minutes of the game. And I was deployed by myself on the flank. So I did not have time to meet up with any AA CA or CL.

It was a game i get 1 salvo off and then deleted by something i have no hope of stopping. I literally got 10 km in my ship then was removed. Don't know how i could play that different. And if i get killed for sailing broadside on to a battleship, then i get what i deserve. I made a mistake and my skill, or lack of got me killed, that's fair. I don't think it is fair that this carrier can delete me and no amount of skill from me will help stop that.

Starting too far away from friendly AA has always been a major issue for ships that dont have a chance of defending themselves and wont be able to reach an ally soon enough to matter. The CV mains will have you believe its a good mechanic because they directly benefit from the occasional BB or DD that cant reach help before they hit it. 

 

My advice is get a friend to play with, divisions always spawn near each other so you can guarantee AA support early in the game when you need it. Tier 8 has some very good AA ships like the Kut, Chappy, Kidd, etc. soon it will have the Cleveland and Baltimore which will also be very good at shooting planes down. The thing with CVs is if you choose wrong before you reach the game a smart CV will walk all over you, its the choices you make before you hit the battle button that keep the CV away from you. I play with an IRL friend a lot and I probably wouldnt be here if I didnt play with him. 

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