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Edgecase

Secondary Clan Team will not work

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This is in reference to the WoWS Dev Blog post regarding secondary clan teams, the text of which can be found in the spoiler.

Spoiler

ST. Secondary clan team

In update 0.7.6 players that are in clans will have an opportunity to join one of two teams that will participate in Clan battles. The higher rated team will contribute to the the clan's overall standing, and teams will be designated as "Alpha" and "Bravo".

 

 
I will assume that this change is being made to address the following issue:

Issue: Forced Benching. A clan that is pushing for a high standing can only field its best players, lest it risk loss of rating. This prevents the vast majority of players in a clan from playing comfortably. This effect is particularly prevalent late in a season, when everyone is making a "final push" for rating.

Proposed solution: Allow clans to play independent "Alpha" and "Bravo" teams, with the higher-rated one counting for the clan's standing at the end of the season.

However, this solution will fail. This is because:

Fault: Bravos feed enemy Alphas. Something that most people may not realize is that the fight for the top at the end of a Clan Battles season is as much about competing teams not gaining points, as it is about your team gaining them.

Spoiler

This is because of the way the point structure in CB works -- a second place team can rapidly close the gap against a first place team without ever playing the first place team, by farming the living daylights out of the third, fourth, fifth, and so on place teams. The first-place team might be matchmaking against those same opponents, but they gain fewer points on a win (because of the larger rating difference), and suffer longer matchmaking times (because the system is more resistant to match them against opponents with a larger rating gap)*. So, the gap will close naturally, and the speed of that closure is based on how many easy-yet-profitable wins the second-place team can get.

* Fun fact, we discovered last season that the MM has a hard boundary of 500 points -- it literally will not let teams more than 500 points apart play, which means that a Hurricane team with 600 points could only ever hope to get matches against Hurricane 100+ teams, of which there may be only 3-4 until the late season.

Long story short, if our clan is fighting for first, we would never want to do something that allowed our competitors to gain points more easily. And that's exactly what would happen if we were to play our Bravo team near the end of the season.

Consider the following scenario:

  • [-US-] Alpha team (Hurricane 300)
  • [THEM] Alpha team (Hurricane 280)
  • [OTHER] Alpha team (Hurricane 250)
  • ... some others ...
  • [-US-] Bravo team (Hurricane 100)

Let's assume for a moment that the standings are somewhat accurate, and that our Bravo team is likely to lose to [THEM] Alpha, should they meet. This means that queuing our Bravo team at a time when they could match against [THEM] Alpha, is risking a point feed to a major competitor. We'd much rather have [THEM] fight [OTHER], a much closer matchup that could actually strengthen our lead if [THEM] happens to lose.

Therefore, the best play for our clan would be to NOT field the Bravo team. And that means that the Alpha/Bravo strategy will have defeated itself: Forced Benching is still occurring.

Spoiler

Can this happen? Absolutely. In fact, it will be rather common. Any time a clan's Alpha and Bravo teams are in a similar matchmaking spread, they will see some of the same opposing clans, particularly near the end of the season. Many competitive clans actually have deep benches of skilled players who can reach and maintain Hurricane standing, which means that this problem will be particularly pronounced near the top... again. So far, I have been unable to brainstorm any strategies to deal with this issue that do not end in basically this same place: either we bench the Bravo team at the end of the season, or we have to do something with undesirable side effects (for example, we could throw games to intentionally lower our Bravo team's rating, but that's obviously bad).

 

TL;DR: Bravos will get benched at the end of a competitive season because they'd feed points to competing Alphas, which defeats the point of having Bravo teams in the first place.

Edited by Edgecase
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What about a special criteria for Hurricane such that Bravo can only face other Bravos and Alpha can only face other Alphas?

Might be a nightmare for CB MM though.

 

Edited by Kombat_W0MBAT

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Most Bravo teams will have enough of a skill drop-off that they won't be in the same leagues. However, for a few clans, like yours, the second team will probably either be as good as, or close enough, to be in the same league. At that point, and only for those few clans, I can see it being an issue.

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To be fair, this won't really be the case for most clans.

Unfortunately at the top though it will still cause this issue :(

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16 hours ago, Th3KrimzonD3mon said:

Most Bravo teams will have enough of a skill drop-off that they won't be in the same leagues. However, for a few clans, like yours, the second team will probably either be as good as, or close enough, to be in the same league. At that point, and only for those few clans, I can see it being an issue.

It will be an issue for small clans like mine. We can barely even field seven players most of the time, let alone two full teams. 

This means there is a basic disparity built into this: you can game this system by only playing your ALPHA team. This will guarantee that although you will face ALPHA teams as before, you will also face a certain number of BRAVO teams, meaning that over the course of the season you will acquire a definite edge to your ALPHA team WR over clans fielding both. Edgecase's analysis is totally correct. 

The only way to stop this is to make sure that BRAVO only faces BRAVO. Many clans will have enough good players to field 2 tough teams. For smaller clans like mine, there will be a significant drop off in quality in the BRAVO team, worsening this issue. Our ALPHA team is composed entirely of unicums who have high win rates, and are among the top players on the server in many of their ships. Our BRAVO team will be lead by me, a Perfectly Ordinary Sailor who should not be anywhere near CW. 

Never mind the rancor this will start within clans. "What? You *@&##*@ aren't putting me on the ALPHA team! You can all go (*@#@#$ yourselves!"

 

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29 minutes ago, Th3KrimzonD3mon said:

Most Bravo teams will have enough of a skill drop-off that they won't be in the same leagues. However, for a few clans, like yours, the second team will probably either be as good as, or close enough, to be in the same league. At that point, and only for those few clans, I can see it being an issue.

Different league teams still play each other though.

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Put clan struggled to field a team just once a week. Towards the end of last season we picked up some goid players,  for us, and went on a win streak.

I see 2 issues with struggling clans.

Alpha team not having enough players, can they substitute in other players?

Bravo team performing better than Alpha.

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15 minutes ago, Taichunger said:

It will be an issue for small clans like mine. We can barely even field seven players most of the time, let alone two full teams. 

This means there is a basic disparity built into this: you can game this system by only playing your ALPHA team. This will guarantee that although you will face ALPHA teams as before, you will also face a certain number of BRAVO teams, meaning that over the course of the season you will acquire a definite edge to your ALPHA team WR over clans fielding both. Edgecase's analysis is totally correct. 

The only way to stop this is to make sure that BRAVO only faces BRAVO. Many clans will have enough good players to field 2 tough teams. For smaller clans like mine, there will be a significant drop off in quality in the BRAVO team, worsening this issue. Our ALPHA team is composed entirely of unicums who have high win rates, and are among the top players on the server in many of their ships. Our BRAVO team will be lead by me, a Perfectly Ordinary Sailor who should not be anywhere near CW. 

Never mind the rancor this will start within clans. "What? You *@&##*@ aren't putting me on the ALPHA team! You can all go (*@#@#$ yourselves!"

 

 

This doesn't affect you then. This is only relevant for clans that have a large/active roster that previously benched certain players in favor of an A team that could push for points. 

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Its not alread happens?... 2 teans limit per clan? Now looks like they just going name it.

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Hopefully there is not a limit to the number of Alpha or Bravo teams per clan given there are several which can support two Alpha's at a time, or multiple Bravos in addition to an Alpha.

As @Edgecase pointed out, however, the underlying goal may need to be evaluated further by WG to be of benefit in the more competitive circles. Sounds like this may be a good concept for some clans though which is a good sign that WG is at least aware of the situation and developing new strategies.

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41 minutes ago, HyenaHiena said:

Its not alread happens?... 2 teans limit per clan? Now looks like they just going name it.

All teams on a clan currently share the same rating. Under the alpha/bravo plan, there will be two ratings.

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3 hours ago, Edgecase said:

All teams on a clan currently share the same rating. Under the alpha/bravo plan, there will be two ratings.

" The higher rated team will contribute to the the clan's overall standing "

hmm thats not means only the high rated team will be taken in consideration?

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6 minutes ago, HyenaHiena said:

" The higher rated team will contribute to the the clan's overall standing "

hmm thats not means only the high rated team will be taken in consideration?

It means that both teams will have independent ratings, but the higher one will count for season standings.

If they weren't independently tracked, there would be no "higher rated team" to speak of.

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