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SyndicatedINC

Team Damage Threshold

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*Disclaimer: this is not a whine thread.  I have not turned pink under the new system, and thus have no personal gripe.  Rather this is just based on multiple in battle observations I have made of friendlies and enemies who turned pink and/or took significant damage/died due to it since the change to the TK system was introduced*

Wargaming, the upcoming patch notes have an adjustment correcting part of the problem players are experiencing due to the latest team damage penalty system:

https://worldofwarships.com/en/news/common/american-cruisers/#misc

Quote

We've rolled out a minor update to the Unsportsmanlike Conduct Prevention System. Now, when a player hits an allied ship, mirror damage will be inflicted on that player only after receiving an allied damage warning. Immediate infliction of mirror damage occasionally resulted in situations when a team lost two players at a time.

 

However as the recent ichase video shows:

 

The problem isn't just the instant reflected damage, it is the damage threshold that is consider unsporting.   We realize that the exact numbers are something that you keep secret, which is your prerogative.   However we as players can see the instances of the warnings and have noticed that players are getting censured for extended ramming damage when the game bugs out and ships become stuck together.   We have seen unicum players go 10 games or more without a single point of team damage yet instantly turn pink for the first stray BB shell to overpen a teammate.   

These instances used to only turn players pink when they had a history of questionable behavior or low enemy to friendly damage ratios.   Sure we all witnessed the stray BB shot citadel a teammate for a pinkening, but not a lone pen or overpen out of a dozen games of otherwise high enemy damage with no friendly damage.  While the exact ratios are secret, it is obvious to all that those ratios have changed.   Given that we now have an orange level, that makes sense.  However the reflex damage still begins at pink, which doesn't make sense when the ratio is now so low.   2 otherwise good players who happen to get their ships stuck together don't deserve to be reflex damaged to death.  Their team doesn't deserve to be down 2 ships because of a bug coupled with an over sensitive TK system.  The BB which gets rammed by a cruiser right as it fires, and overpens that teammates super structure doesn't deserve to be turned pink, let alone then take reflex damage from the ram (which was not even their fault as they got rammed).   

The latest changes will go towards fixing some issues with the system, but the sensitivity is still a problem and these changes won't stop the reflex damage after the initial hit (which is often when someone gets rammed).  Thus it will still be severely damaging/killing players who were not TKing their team.

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11 minutes ago, SuperSpud1 said:

DON'T FIRE AT YOUR ALLIES

 

7 minutes ago, HazeGrayUnderway said:

Fix is simple.  Don't attack your teammates.  Problem solved.  What's so difficult to understand???

hwVkKHw.gif

 

First two comments are typical from the INotReadicusButIRespondicus crowd.

Note the very first sentence: 

Quote

*Disclaimer: this is not a whine thread.  I have not turned pink under the new system, and thus have no personal gripe.  Rather this is just based on multiple in battle observations I have made of friendlies and enemies who turned pink and/or took significant damage/died due to it since the change to the TK system was introduced*



I did not attack my teammates, nor was I turned pink.  This isn't a post about punishment done to me as I received none.  It is about what I have seen happen in game to teammates and enemies.

Additionally for those that bothered to actually read before making snide comments

 

Quote

 ...see the instances of the warnings and have noticed that players are getting censured for extended ramming damage when the game bugs out and ships become stuck together.

 

 

The issue doesn't exist from just shooting friendlies.   I witnessed 2 enemy ships get stuck on each other until they both pinked and reflex damage died.   This is a bug not a feature.

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Just now, HazeGrayUnderway said:

Don't damage your allies then.

hwVkKHw.gif

You people make things so difficult for yourselves.

 

 

....and again....

 

j60zc.jpg.ff24d191ea81ef1ba2a7fee4059edca5.jpg

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1 minute ago, SyndicatedINC said:

 

 

....and again....

 

j60zc.jpg.ff24d191ea81ef1ba2a7fee4059edca5.jpg

The answer was always simple.  Don't damage your teammates.  That also includes... Not sailing into them like an idiot.

hwVkKHw.gif

 

Do you guys need additional aid, written instructions to go pick up the mail?

Edited by HazeGrayUnderway

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40 minutes ago, SyndicatedINC said:

The problem isn't just the instant reflected damage, it is the damage threshold that is consider unsporting.   We realize that the exact numbers are something that you keep secret, which is your prerogative.   However we as players can see the instances of the warnings and have noticed that players are getting censured for extended ramming damage when the game bugs out and ships become stuck together.   We have seen unicum players go 10 games or more without a single point of team damage yet instantly turn pink for the first stray BB shell to overpen a teammate.   

These instances used to only turn players pink when they had a history of questionable behavior or low enemy to friendly damage ratios.   Sure we all witnessed the stray BB shot citadel a teammate for a pinkening, but not a lone pen or overpen out of a dozen games of otherwise high enemy damage with no friendly damage.  While the exact ratios are secret, it is obvious to all that those ratios have changed.   Given that we now have an orange level, that makes sense.  However the reflex damage still begins at pink, which doesn't make sense when the ratio is now so low.   2 otherwise good players who happen to get their ships stuck together don't deserve to be reflex damaged to death.  Their team doesn't deserve to be down 2 ships because of a bug coupled with an over sensitive TK system.  The BB which gets rammed by a cruiser right as it fires, and overpens that teammates super structure doesn't deserve to be turned pink, let alone then take reflex damage from the ram (which was not even their fault as they got rammed).   

The latest changes will go towards fixing some issues with the system, but the sensitivity is still a problem and these changes won't stop the reflex damage after the initial hit (which is often when someone gets rammed).  Thus it will still be severely damaging/killing players who were not TKing their team.

I disagree with your analogy that the fixes coming in the next patch are doing to fix anything you mentioned. There are other situations in where the system needs to be tweaked but it doesn't cover your example. Since no one can test the new system in PTS because you likes to get kicked out of there, we don;t know for sure what the results will be. The situations I want to see solve is

  1. Firing arc intrusion with out giving the shooter a warning or the woundering friendly a warning he is going to get shot. That right there is 2 days pink for 1 salvo of HE with fire. 
40 minutes ago, SyndicatedINC said:

Their team doesn't deserve to be down 2 ships because of a bug coupled with an over sensitive TK system. 

Unfortunately its not a Court room to determine who deserves what when people are arrogant in thinking its cool to torp people when there are friendlies in front (which is 90% of all pink occurrence). Teams can adapt and over come, but if not blame the one shooting at allies with torps to begin with. 

In Summery. I don;t think this will fix anything that you mentioned if anything it will let the victim die while the perpetrator lives on since we dont want a 2 ship down scenario.. I am sorry big guy I am totally against that. Cheers

 

Edited by Navalpride33
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4 minutes ago, HazeGrayUnderway said:

The answer was always simple.  Don't damage your teammates.  That also includes... Not sailing into them like an idiot.

hwVkKHw.gif

 

Do you guys need additional aid, written instructions to go pick up the mail?

 

The habit is quickly becoming an addiction....

 

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2 minutes ago, Navalpride33 said:

I disagree with your analogy that the fixes coming in the next patch are doing to fix anything you mentioned. There are other situations in where the system needs to be tweaked but it doesn't cover your example. Since no one can test the new system in PTS because you likes to get kicked out of there, we don;t know for sure what the results will be. The situations I want to see solve is

  1. Firing arc intrusion with out giving the shooting or the woundering friendly a warning. That right there is 2 days pink for 1 salvo of HE with fire. 

Unfortunately its not a Court room to determine who deserves what when people are arrogant in thinking its cool to torp people when there are friendlies in front (which is 90% of all pink occurrence). Teams can adapt and over come, but if not blame the one shooting at allies with torps to begin with. 

In Summery. I don;t think this will fix anything that you mentioned if anything it will let the victim die while the perpetrator lives on since we dont want a 2 ship down scenario.. I am sorry big guy I am totally against that. Cheers

 

That firing arc scenario seems to be what WG is aiming their "fix" at.   While I agree that the 'fix' is nothing of the sort, I do have to admit that it would stop the massive health loss in situations of firing arc such as in the ichase video.   That is what I meant.   Not that the fix actually is a fix.  Just that it will correct this one specific instance.

 

I do agree however though it is actually a bad idea in that it will allow the intentional torping to come back.  

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3 minutes ago, SyndicatedINC said:

 

The habit is quickly becoming an addiction....

 

LeafyAllKob-size_restricted.gif.ccdc6e2f67d62437eaf39399b9a85eb3.gif

It's easy.  Don't sail into your teammates, don't cause damage to them.

hwVkKHw.gif

Why do you people have such a hard time playing this game?  Is it hard to even login?

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2 minutes ago, HazeGrayUnderway said:

It's easy.  Don't sail into your teammates, don't cause damage to them.

hwVkKHw.gif

Why do you people have such a hard time playing this game?  Is it hard to even login?

 

Continuing the discussion you are having in your own head rather than the one in the thread....

 

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You guys make it a point to send shells your team's way also?  Sailing into them, getting in the way of their shots?  If so, then I can understand how the current system is troublesome.

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3 minutes ago, HazeGrayUnderway said:

You guys make it a point to send shells your team's way also?  Sailing into them, getting in the way of their shots?  If so, then I can understand how the current system is troublesome.

Warmer, but still not the topic of discussion at hand.

 

5b0d9e37439e4_singandamiss.gif.50206cb3d6a9568038143f7faa7e5e5d.gif

 

 

Edited by SyndicatedINC
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7 minutes ago, SyndicatedINC said:

Warmer, but still not the topic of discussion at hand.

 

5b0d9e37439e4_singandamiss.gif.50206cb3d6a9568038143f7faa7e5e5d.gif

 

 

None of that stuff you mentioned in your initial post can happen if you're not damaging your teammates.

 

Like I said, simple, really.

 

There is no need to worry about Team Damage Threshold if you're not Damaging them.  Not hard, people.

Edited by HazeGrayUnderway

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5 minutes ago, HazeGrayUnderway said:

It's easy.  Don't sail into your teammates, don't cause damage to them.

hwVkKHw.gif

Why do you people have such a hard time playing this game?  Is it hard to even login?

Even if you have never accidentally sailed into someone (something I don't actually believe), I cannot fathom someone going over 11 thousand battles without someone else accidentally hitting you. Accidental ramming damage happens all the time, even to the very best players. And I do personally believe that the penalty system is oversensitive to ramming damage. Even a single point of pink ramming damage wipes that game from the progress of turning white again, even if you were rammed or you just lightly swapped paint with a friendly you were laying smoke for.

Seriously, go find one of the threads that is actually whining about turning pink and annoy that poster. Leave the only thread that is an actual (attempted) intelligent discussion about how the TK system can be improved alone if you don't actually have anything to add.

59 minutes ago, SyndicatedINC said:

However we as players can see the instances of the warnings and have noticed that players are getting censured for extended ramming damage when the game bugs out and ships become stuck together

I can't really comment on the rest of the things you have brought up, OP, not having ever turned pink myself, but I have seen ships get stuck together and turn pink from that. The problem there is the game cannot tell the difference between one player deliberately ramming the other and a genuine bug. Heck, it's pretty much impossible for the computer to recognize who did the ramming in cases where it is trolling.

I would say that to fix the ramming damage problem, (or at least part of it) the game shouldn't count friendly ramming damage under a specific threshold. That would solve some problems. Admittedly, the more minor ones, but being as that I am not a game dev, the more major ones are beyond my ability to theory-craft a solution to.    

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9 minutes ago, HazeGrayUnderway said:

None of that stuff you mentioned in your initial post can happen if you're not damaging your teammates.

 

Like I said, simple, really.

 

There is no need to worry about Team Damage Threshold if you're not Damaging them.  Not hard, people.

 

Finally we get to the route of the miscommunication.  You are starting from an incorrect presumption.   A player does not always have the choice of team damage.   Spawn bugs can start ships already in contact with each other, especially if in a division.   Sever connection issues and cause players to load in late and already be getting rammed by a teammate.    A large slow ship (CV/BB) has not the ability to avoid friendly DDs ramming into them.   

 

I have witnessed the current system turn players pink and reflex damage them to death or near death for things that are either #1 WG bugs or #2 beyond the literally physical control of the player to avoid.   

 

A player complaining about being pinked for a 5HP ram likely has done damage elsewhere.   However a bug causing 2 ships to spawn over each other and suffer ~500HP each while separating should not be Pinking both ships.

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2 minutes ago, SyndicatedINC said:

 

Finally we get to the route of the miscommunication.  You are starting from an incorrect presumption.   A player does not always have the choice of team damage.   Spawn bugs can start ships already in contact with each other, especially if in a division.   Sever connection issues and cause players to load in late and already be getting rammed by a teammate.    A large slow ship (CV/BB) has not the ability to avoid friendly DDs ramming into them.   

 

I have witnessed the current system turn players pink and reflex damage them to death or near death for things that are either #1 WG bugs or #2 beyond the literally physical control of the player to avoid.   

 

A player complaining about being pinked for a 5HP ram likely has done damage elsewhere.   However a bug causing 2 ships to spawn over each other and suffer ~500HP each while separating should not be Pinking both ships.

Alright then :Smile_honoring:

 

 

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4 minutes ago, Baskerville77 said:

I can't really comment on the rest of the things you have brought up, OP, not having ever turned pink myself, but I have seen ships get stuck together and turn pink from that. The problem there is the game cannot tell the difference between one player deliberately ramming the other and a genuine bug. Heck, it's pretty much impossible for the computer to recognize who did the ramming in cases where it is trolling.

I would say that to fix the ramming damage problem, (or at least part of it) the game shouldn't count friendly ramming damage under a specific threshold. That would solve some problems. Admittedly, the more minor ones, but being as that I am not a game dev, the more major ones are beyond my ability to theory-craft a solution to.    

 

This is all part of that threshold level.  It used to be that if 2 players who were not habitual team damagers got stuck on each other, they could lose hundreds of hit points without turning pink.  So long as neither of them actually died from it, the odds of them turning pink was zero.

 

Now however it seems that how long you went is irrelevant, if you do a few hundred or more damage to a single DD you turn pink.  

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1 hour ago, SyndicatedINC said:

*Disclaimer: this is not a whine thread.  I have not turned pink under the new system, and thus have no personal gripe.  Rather this is just based on multiple in battle observations I have made of friendlies and enemies who turned pink and/or took significant damage/died due to it since the change to the TK system was introduced*

Wargaming, the upcoming patch notes have an adjustment correcting part of the problem players are experiencing due to the latest team damage penalty system:

https://worldofwarships.com/en/news/common/american-cruisers/#misc

 

However as the recent ichase video shows:

 

The problem isn't just the instant reflected damage, it is the damage threshold that is consider unsporting.   We realize that the exact numbers are something that you keep secret, which is your prerogative.   However we as players can see the instances of the warnings and have noticed that players are getting censured for extended ramming damage when the game bugs out and ships become stuck together.   We have seen unicum players go 10 games or more without a single point of team damage yet instantly turn pink for the first stray BB shell to overpen a teammate.   

These instances used to only turn players pink when they had a history of questionable behavior or low enemy to friendly damage ratios.   Sure we all witnessed the stray BB shot citadel a teammate for a pinkening, but not a lone pen or overpen out of a dozen games of otherwise high enemy damage with no friendly damage.  While the exact ratios are secret, it is obvious to all that those ratios have changed.   Given that we now have an orange level, that makes sense.  However the reflex damage still begins at pink, which doesn't make sense when the ratio is now so low.   2 otherwise good players who happen to get their ships stuck together don't deserve to be reflex damaged to death.  Their team doesn't deserve to be down 2 ships because of a bug coupled with an over sensitive TK system.  The BB which gets rammed by a cruiser right as it fires, and overpens that teammates super structure doesn't deserve to be turned pink, let alone then take reflex damage from the ram (which was not even their fault as they got rammed).   

The latest changes will go towards fixing some issues with the system, but the sensitivity is still a problem and these changes won't stop the reflex damage after the initial hit (which is often when someone gets rammed).  Thus it will still be severely damaging/killing players who were not TKing their team.

It seems like the team damage threshold is 10-15% of the target ships HP. So, if you hit a DD, you don't have to do much damage.

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1 minute ago, HazeGrayUnderway said:

Alright then :Smile_honoring:

Honestly that is what drove me to make this post.   Over the weekend I witnessed a CV on my team get turned pink by a disgruntled DD on our team who decided to ram the CV because they didn't like how the CV was playing (CV was actually playing very well and got both Confederate and the new King of Skies achievement).  However the DD rammed into them until they turned pink and nearly died from reflex damage.   So when the enemy spotted the CV the first shell killed it and we almost lost the match.   

 

I also witnessed 2 enemy DDs in division spawn at game start on top of each and their team complained in chat because they both were pinked and reflexed nearly to death.   On a 4 cap domination map, with only 2 DDs per side this put their team instantly at a massive disadvantage.  

 

Lastly I witnessed an enemy cruiser and BB ram into one another to dodge a torp spread (which they successfully did), however they became stuck together and unable to separate.   Eventually they turned pink and reflex damage killed them both.  Given that our team had only a lone DD, who was below 1k HP, and their team had cap and points advantage the game should have been their team's victory, but because of this their last two ships died and they lost.   


I have also witnessed situation such as the ichase video wherein two ships get close, one fires, and clips the other, turns pink and loses a chunk of health, then gets rammed by the 2nd ship.  While true they fired the rounds that turned them pink, the current system and the new system is still going to reflex damage kill them for ramming damage done to them by a teammate who rammed into them, not for damage they did ramming into a teammate carelessly.  

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Considering the team damage stupidity that I have witnessed in WoT, I'd rather it be too sensitive than not sensitive enough.

9 minutes ago, SyndicatedINC said:

I have witnessed the current system turn players pink and reflex damage them to death or near death for things that are either #1 WG bugs or #2 beyond the literally physical control of the player to avoid.   

A player complaining about being pinked for a 5HP ram likely has done damage elsewhere.   However a bug causing 2 ships to spawn over each other and suffer ~500HP each while separating should not be Pinking both ships.

Having ships be immune to team damage until they have traveled far enough to/or otherwise no longer count as "inactive"  would fix most of those cases.

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Turn Off team damage... It works in Scenarios.... Nobody seems to go out of their way to do damage in those and accidents do happen with zero penalties.

TK is a useless part of the game added to make "Realism" in a non realistic game. { Radar through islands..... Invisible ships......Speed of ships.......etcetera}

Turning Off this one part would not change anything but the B-I-T-C-H sessions. 

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22 minutes ago, CLUCH_CARGO said:

Turn Off team damage... It works in Scenarios.... Nobody seems to go out of their way to do damage in those and accidents do happen with zero penalties.

TK is a useless part of the game added to make "Realism" in a non realistic game. { Radar through islands..... Invisible ships......Speed of ships.......etcetera}

Turning Off this one part would not change anything but the B-I-T-C-H sessions. 

It will change the choices people make when their finger is on the left mouse button.

This would not be a good thing.

Leave team damage in the game.

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