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SavageTactical

You guys thought Wargaming was expensive

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Not Warships related, but they do have a pay to play system like wargaming products.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.pcgamer.com/amp/new-star-citizen-ship-pack-unlocks-nearly-every-vessel-in-the-game-for-dollar27000/

My thoughts: you can take out a loan to play an unfinished spaceship game or spend $60 and cruise the galaxy in Elite Dangerous right now. After seven years and $200M dollars Star Citizen is beyond ridiculous. 

Edited by SavageTactical
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talk about a scam, isn't that thing still in alpha?:Smile_teethhappy:

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WG had Ships in alpha and I prayed I could be invited. When it went to Beta you could buy a bundle and jump right in. That was good game development.

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I would never, ever play Star Citizen. It's no longer vaporware, but I never expect it to achieve any of the benchmarks they promised. 

If you're looking for an MMO that appears to be rolling along decently right now in development, try pre-ordering this. It's only about a month away from beta, and should be released early next year.

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Expensive?  You want expensive?  Try hand-moderated PBM/PBEM gaming.  I played one for 25 years (with a break in the middle).  In power mode with combat, I often spent $500/month.  One guy who was a true power gamer (an ex-SF colonel) claims his accountants totaled up his spending at over $250,000.  I didn't have outside accountants but I'm sure my total was well into 6 figures. 

WoWS is a pissant in terms of costs.  Even PBW players are like misers in the wide world.

 

 

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Star citizen is very expensive, I know quite a few people who bought 5k packages, good luck to them, wows is far from expensive, its even free for those that want it that way.

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Uh, except you can play SC right now for only a minimum of $40 USD, and can get a refund whenever you want if you dont feel like its to your liking. (something even WG wont let you do, fyi) Also, with-in the next couple months, we'll be getting mining added to the game. We already have working cargo and the beginnings of an actual economy with buying and selling freight between different locations.

 

That pack isn't meant for normal customers. Its meant for those massive big spenders that literally want every ship in the game RIGHT NOW (theres currently 117 of them), including very limited edition ships that aren't available anymore. Some of the ships included in the pack are actually massive capital ships that can hold 30+ players at one time. The pack ALSO contains over 160 other items, like skins, ingame posters, ect. $27k USD is a reasonable price for something THAT large if you ask me.

 

SC is actually moving along at a reasonable pace now. They're adding in the core gameplay elements now, and also expanding on the ones already there.

 

Honestly, you people who are losing your minds over this new pack, seem like you're grasping at straws to find any way at all to denounce SC. Its kinda sad actually. xD

 

Also, last I checked, you have buy DLC to even THINK of landing on planets in E:D. You also cannot walk around your ships in E:D, and the actual content on those said planets is extremely limited. Hell, you cant even get out of your ship and walk around! xD

 

In SC, thats all included in the base game. No DLC, no microtransactions, nothing like that. You spend $40, and you're in the game and can land on planets and explore and haul cargo as soon as you finish downloading. :)

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33 minutes ago, CLUCH_CARGO said:

WoWs has very reasonable Prices.

They aren't reasonable. What's reasonable is that you don't have to spend anything and it gives the consumer the choice. 

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1 minute ago, NotoriousRNG said:

They aren't reasonable. What's reasonable is that you don't have to spend anything and it gives the consumer the choice. 

You have a reasonable choice of whether you want to spend real money to play. That alone is reasonable. 

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Super beautiful game. 

If I am not mistaken you can buy all space ships without spending real money in the future. Currently you can only buy pre access to certain ships so that you back the game.

Also the 27k package was requested by backers.

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1 minute ago, LemonadeWarrior said:

Super beautiful game. 

If I am not mistaken you can buy all space ships without spending real money in the future. Currently you can only buy pre access to certain ships so that you back the game.

Also the 27k package was requested by backers.

Yup, yup, and yup!

 

All ships will be available for in-game money once it releases (and possibly before then for testing I'd imagine)

 

And pretty much all the large price tagged packages were requested by current backers. CiG isn't the sole reason for those packs to exist.

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I bought into the game in 2014 .. spent $160 on a ship.. but after waiting for a year.. I got bored and uninstalled the game.. Maybe once its releases in 5 years I'll check it out again. 

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This package is for the whales inside the game, Many of which already have spent $20 - 50,000K, Giving them a option to melt vast amounts of ships to package them together to save alittle money and get some rare ships that are hull limited. In fact, Unless you contact support, You aren't able to even buy this package until you've spent $,1,000 backing the game. It's not meant to be a package to the average person that's new to the project. 

We have been asking for better updated packages for some time, Ones that offered more up to date ships. This is them doing what we asked for. Nothing more. 

All ships can be earned in game with no real money. All you'll need is a game package for $45. And as mentioned, Once aUEC ship sells happen this year, People will be able to grind out credits in game and buy currently flyable ships to test out. However with each new patch, Your credits and bought ships (to test with) will be wiped. 

Lastly, These types of articles from PC Gamer and others are only there to click bait people, To make them pissed or mad because of something they want to bring to attention. Somehow I wouldn't be surprised if we have some mighty big spenders right here in the Wows community that gets up there in the thousands upon thousands for store buys of RNG packs. From holiday ones to campaign ones. At least with SC you get what you want to pay for, Not a gamble to get it.

Not trying to start a war, We all find enjoyment in different things. But there is no need to bash one when another can be just as bad. Only not talked about. I understand that SC isn't finished yet and that makes things worse but if you look at many popular triple A games, They take years to build from the ground up as well. Only difference is you don't hear about them until they are only a couple years from being finished. Plus they have a huge publisher paying the bills. Diablo 3 for example, A small simple game like that took 7 years if I recall. 

I highly suggest if you back the game, Just do it with a entry package and wait a couple years. 

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Disclaimer; I have KickStarted and helped fund Star Citizen.

  Do I hope my money isn't wasted yes am I going to white knight them no, but I see a lot of attempts to by people to use false arguments to attack it.

1) $27K package was asked for by people funding development also a basic function of supply and demand.  So why the heck people are complaining, I can think of many reasons but no need to list them off.

2) "They have missed deadlines game is vaporware/scam!"  Making the expanded scope game that many people backed for is going to take a good while probably in the range of 7-9 year.  Will this anger some people yes I know a few people who backed for the original vision of the game, but they are also willing to wait for what is coming.

3) "They have already raised $200 million dollars, why are they asking for more?"  Mainly cause games (Two games as well "Squadron 42" Singleplayer/"Star Citizen" Multiplayer) of the scope that it is set for now cost a lot to make.  Destiny(2014) clocked in at $140 million, Watch Dog(2014) $68 million, Battlefield 4(2013) ~$100 million these are all older games.  https://www.techspot.com/article/771-cost-of-making-a-game/

 

  At first I was kind of depressed with the progress with the game but I have started paying more attention recently and the basic building blocks of modules/manufacturer design parts/etc. are hitting the end of their development cycle and we are starting to see more ships/vehicles/job systems enter the alpha faster and faster.  So IMO the game is still up in the air but it is getting more and more real now.

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1 hour ago, Naviss said:

I understand that SC isn't finished yet and that makes things worse but if you look at many popular triple A games, They take years to build from the ground up as well. Only difference is you don't hear about them until they are only a couple years from being finished.

I've worked on triple-A games. They aren't made the way they are trying to make SC, with a bunch of random modules that they somehow think will all fit together at some point.

Most of the game industry recruiters I know won't even try to place someone Cloud Imperium. The folks I've heard who work there just shrug their shoulders and say they'll continue to ride the wave for as long as they can.

Games ship because the developers are starving and can't make payroll, not because an artist, designer, or programmer feels that everything is perfect. Games ship when the publisher forces the developers to release the game, when the developers kick and scream and cry about how they need more time to get the game perfect.

Games don't ship when you give someone a pile of money and say, "Take your time and get it right." That's never happened and it never will happen.

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6 hours ago, SavageTactical said:

Not Warships related, but they do have a pay to play system like wargaming products.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.pcgamer.com/amp/new-star-citizen-ship-pack-unlocks-nearly-every-vessel-in-the-game-for-dollar27000/

My thoughts: you can take out a loan to play an unfinished spaceship game or spend $60 and cruise the galaxy in Elite Dangerous right now. After seven years and $200M dollars Star Citizen is beyond ridiculous. 

At least Star Citizen provides a persistent universe to play in. I can understand those prices because they are limited runs, not cash shop spam. 
WoWS is nothing but team death match ad nauseum.

But seriously, Star Citizen is going to crash and burn at some point. There's no way that game should still be in development with the amount of money that's been thrown at it; see Elite: Dangerous. At some point in the near future, you're going to hear about how several millions of dollars were embezzled from the company and development halted as investigations take place, at which point you'll be lucky if you get a stripped down single player version of the game.

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5 hours ago, NotoriousRNG said:

Yes. But the prices of $80 for one ship are far from reasonable. 

It depends on which ship you want, and how badly you want it. I've probably thrown about $100CDN at this game so far, but for that I got the Tachibana, Yubari, Ishizuchi (with Yamamoto collection unlock), Anshan, Texas and Graf Spee, and equipped all my T6+ ships that didn't yet have it with perma-camo. The thought of spending $80 on just one ship isn't one I want to entertain, when with judicious and well-timed spending I could have so much more for the same money.

Edited by Ensign_Cthulhu
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6 hours ago, CLUCH_CARGO said:

WoWs has very reasonable Prices.

No, it doesn't; only someone new to having money/spending said money on games/dlc would ever think otherwise. Even in the simplest metric; cost/hour, Wargaming product DLC prices are on the most extreme high end, with only the aforementioned Star Citizen and Eve being grosser offenders.

On average, people play even T8 Premiums only about 100 times (server averages are ~100 games per premium over T5). That equates to, assuming a 15 minute match on average, 1500 minutes, or 25 hours per DLC piece. Using T8's as the most egregious example, the minimum cost per T8 is between about $45 USD and $60 USD, depending on the ship type. Taking the middle, ~$53 USD, that translates to, for T8's on average, of a cost per hour per premium ship, of ~$2.12 per hour. For contrast, according to Steam's Stats, the average play time for the entire game on say, Metro Last Light, is about 47 hours on average, with an original retail price of $60 USD at release (which *has* decreased over time and thus shifts it to being actually MORE economical, but assuming the 'worst') has a cost/hour of $1.27, nearly a full dollar value more. And that's an ENTIRE game; these ships are SINGULAR DLC pieces.

Conversely look at Burial at Sea, a $20 USD (at release) DLC released for Bioshock Infinite. Average Playtime of it was in the 12 hour range. That translates to ~$1.67 per hour (which is, for the record, about what the industry aims for in cost/hour).

If you look at WoWs as a whole, it is up their with the WORST practices of mobile games.

Currently average player game counts are in the 2000 games range. Again, assuming 15 minute matches, that is ~500 hours of gameplay. Each premium ship added as a portion of that total drives the cost up, ~$1.00 per premium on average, to a total potential cost per hour of *$20* per gameplay hour, which is insane.

No, by the math, and basic economics, WoWs is full on *price* gouging. They never drop the cost of DLC (sales only, not blanket depreciation), and their starting price per DLC is WAY out of wack in the cost-per-hour valuation. And the FTP aspect does not offer an 'out' to the prices, as many FTP games exist, and only one other: War Thunder, price gouges to this degree on singular DLC pieces.

Edited by _RC1138
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3 minutes ago, _RC1138 said:

On average, people play even T8 Premiums only about 100 times

More fool them, if they don't get the best fun out of their investment.

What you have to remember is that the server average is just that. I would like to know what the distribution is, knowing that it is NOT fully Gaussian; the curve is bounded absolutely on the left at zero (they bought it, they parked it, they never played it for whatever reason) or more reasonably one (they bought it, played it once and gave up in disgust), and has a moving bound on the right, defined by the greatest number of games anyone has ever played in a particular premium ship.

What is that upper bound for, say, the Tirpitz right now? (A better question might be what it was before the German commander and Dseehafer missions, knowing that those would have created a definite spike.)

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39 minutes ago, Ensign_Cthulhu said:

More fool them, if they don't get the best fun out of their investment.

What you have to remember is that the server average is just that. I would like to know what the distribution is, knowing that it is NOT fully Gaussian; the curve is bounded absolutely on the left at zero (they bought it, they parked it, they never played it for whatever reason) or more reasonably one (they bought it, played it once and gave up in disgust), and has a moving bound on the right, defined by the greatest number of games anyone has ever played in a particular premium ship.

What is that upper bound for, say, the Tirpitz right now? (A better question might be what it was before the German commander and Dseehafer missions, knowing that those would have created a definite spike.)

The Tirpitz highlights EXACTLY the value problem; some Premiums spike in usage and thus have a higher $/hour value, but the same person that buys the Tirpitz may also have bought the Graf Spee, or the Emdem, which will have comparatively lower $/hour return (even being cheaper to start). The DLC prices in this game are WAY out of wack for the value imparted; as most evidenced by WGing games being some of the most *profitable* MMOs in the world, despite having comparatively small player bases. It is ALSO why Western Devs have NOT copied their practices, because where a niche audience will tolerate such price gouging (captive audience and all), more 'democratized' audiences will not. Look at (rightfully placed) furor over Battlefront 2: those prices were comparatively cheap, and people threw one helluva fit. Why? Because that general audience can get their Star Wars/TPS/FPS fix elsewhere without being price gouged and did not appreciate it there. Here, we have no way to complain cause what ELSE would we do?

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45 minutes ago, _RC1138 said:

No, it doesn't; only someone new to having money/spending said money on games/dlc would ever think otherwise. Even in the simplest metric; cost/hour, Wargaming product DLC prices are on the most extreme high end, with only the aforementioned Star Citizen and Eve being grosser offenders.

On average, people play even T8 Premiums only about 100 times (server averages are ~100 games per premium over T5). That equates to, assuming a 15 minute match on average, 1500 minutes, or 25 hours per DLC piece. Using T8's as the most egregious example, the minimum cost per T8 is between about $45 USD and $60 USD, depending on the ship type. Taking the middle, ~$53 USD, that translates to, for T8's on average, of a cost per hour per premium ship, of ~$2.12 per hour. For contrast, according to Steam's Stats, the average play time for the entire game on say, Metro Last Light, is about 47 hours on average, with an original retail price of $60 USD at release (which *has* decreased over time and thus shifts it to being actually MORE economical, but assuming the 'worst') has a cost/hour of $1.27, nearly a full dollar value more. And that's an ENTIRE game; these ships are SINGULAR DLC pieces.

Conversely look at Burial at Sea, a $20 USD (at release) DLC released for Bioshock Infinite. Average Playtime of it was in the 12 hour range. That translates to ~$1.67 per hour (which is, for the record, about what the industry aims for in cost/hour).

If you look at WoWs as a whole, it is up their with the WORST practices of mobile games.

Currently average player game counts are in the 2000 games range. Again, assuming 15 minute matches, that is ~500 hours of gameplay. Each premium ship added as a portion of that total drives the cost up, ~$1.00 per premium on average, to a total potential cost per hour of *$20* per gameplay hour, which is insane.

No, by the math, and basic economics, WoWs is full on *price* gouging. They never drop the cost of DLC (sales only, not blanket depreciation), and their starting price per DLC is WAY out of wack in the cost-per-hour valuation. And the FTP aspect does not offer an 'out' to the prices, as many FTP games exist, and only one other: War Thunder, price gouges to this degree on singular DLC pieces.

I look at the whole time spent around playing the game to factor in the hourly rate.  Time in port setting up for the next game, post game analysis, time researching ships, builds and time reading these forums count towards the hourly rate.  Looking at it this way, WoWs is much more engaging than most other games (for me) and less expensive than calculating money spent on a single ship and what it costs to play that one ship only while in battle.

I also consider what I spend on this game in comparison to other hobbies and entertainment and it ranks somewhere in the middle.  I have two other hobbies that are much more expensive in terms of money outlay and much less expensive in terms of time spent.  So the cost per hour for those are much, much more.  For example, I'm a car enthusiast and I like taking my car to the track.  There are a lot of other expenses around owning a car that I don't factor into a track day but just considering the cost in terms of consumables and the cost of the event and it's easily into the upper triple digits per hour for on-track time.  If I break it down to the full activity (not just track time), it's in the upper double digits.

The downside of this evaluation is that it makes it easier for me to spend money in WoWs...

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21 minutes ago, ClassicLib said:

I also consider what I spend on this game in comparison to other hobbies and entertainment and it ranks somewhere in the middle.

It ranks way, way down for me. I consider what I spend on my cameras and lenses, and factor in cost per shot. Then there is the fact that I like to shoot (and home-develop) my own black and white film, and it gets more expensive than WOWS really quickly.

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I used to want to play Star Citizen but they are taking way to long. I wouldn't waste my money on it. I got a rare code for it... Sells for over $100.

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