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KaptainKaybe

Recommendation: Buff Perth/Huanghe/Cossack Style Smoke

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I'm seriously worried about the Cossack design. In the same way that Perth and HuangHe worry me. I'm *especially* worried they'll use this design on Haida, certainly one of the ships I've been most eagerly anticipating, being Canadian and all. When they announced that Cossack is being tested with Perth style smoke, I cringed.

Every other DD and all the RN cruisers can slot  a 'regular' smoke. Which is to say that it puffs for a short duration (RN cruisers have a MUCH shorter duration), but then they last for quite some time. Now in the case of most DDs, that means they can puff out a HUGE smoke cloud, slow down, and then have this huge smokey area to move back and forth that lasts anywhere from around 70s to 120s or so. Obviously, RN cruiser smoke clouds are a lot smaller, but still last a healthy chunk of time.

Perth smoke instead rests for only 10 seconds, but keeps puffing out non stop for 90s which seems like a really big deal. And it *should* be a big deal. But it's not.

Due to how current smoke mechanics works, you cannot move at more than a quarter speed to stay concealed while puffing. This means moving around around 8 or 9 knots, which is really pointless for any sort of aggressive play. And since the smoke cloud actually rests for 10 seconds before dissipating, it means that no matter what you do, it's always stupidly easy for enemy ships to roughly guess where you are since your smoke cloud is tiny and moving with you. Now, RN cruisers also suffer from this, but nowhere near as bad since you can still create an okay smoke cloud by moving at full speed, cutting speed just as your last puff spits out, and then backing up into your cloud.

But that's not in fact that worst problem. The worst is the *reload*. The way every single consumable in the game works is that the reload timer starts when the consumable active time stops. If you're a battleship using Repair Party, the consumable will heal you over time for 28s. When it stops healing you, it goes on it's 80s cooldown. Use Damage Control Party, same deal. Now in the case of regular smoke, the timer starts when the last puff puffs. But that smoke cloud is still sitting there for you to sit in. So let's take Kidd, for example. The smoke spits out for 28s, but then lasts for 124s. Which basically means your smoke cloud, assuming you're sitting where it last stopped puffing, will keep you safe for 128 seconds of her 160s reload, or 32 seconds of being unable to cover yourself in smoke. The Pan Asians have it even better ... the no smoke window is a measly 10 seconds! German DDs have it worst for regular smoke users at around 80s. In the case of Perth, the no smoke window is 160s - 10s smoke cloud ... 150s! That's TWO AND A HALF minutes, with the premium version, of not being able to use smoke to protect yourself! That's insane! There's no core gameplay mechanic consumable in the game that leaves you vulnerable this long. DDs and RN style fragile light cruisers *depend* on smoke to survive.

So suggestions:

- GREATLY reduce the cooldown on those smokes. As in down to 90s or less with the premium smoke. I'd say maybe even add an extra smoke charge, but that's probably asking a lot.
- Change the properties of the smoke so it's puff intervals are every half second to allow the ship to puff out smoke and stay concealed if going at half speed instead of merely a quarter speed. Wargaming wants an aggressive smoke ... then let the ship actually be aggressive. Plus it's a lot easier to dodge incoming torps if you're turning at 16 knots than it is if you're doing so at 8.

Honestly, I really dig the idea of Perth style smoke. It's really a neat gimmick and it should be embraced. But not in it's current form. It's far too weak. It didn't bother me so much that it was only on Perth as that's a seemingly one off cruiser. It didn't bother me so much on HuangHe as that cruiser is garbage regardless of anything you could add to it, lol. But now with Cossack being outfitted with it, and the potential of it being added to Haida as well as it's another Tribal class destroyer, and even worse that it could be the core smoke for an entire tech tree of RN or Commonwealth DDs, this needs to fixed ASAP as I really don't see this as being remotely playable in it's current form.

 

TL;DR: Perth style smoke forces you to only move at quarter speed and has a *monstrous* cooldown. Needs fixing.

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I have been recently playing the Perth and I regularly get my [edited] handed to me. I’m an experienced RN CL driver with over 500 battles in the Leander, but I feel that the Perth is simply weaker - not just because the lack of heal means you can’t take risks, but because the huge delay in smokes means you can’t just plant your feet on a strategic point and force the enemy to blast you out. Somehow, the Perth’s major advantages of HE, better concealment and a Spotter Plane don’t make up for this. 

Shorter cooldown duration to be about on par with Leander definitely would not go astray. 

Edited by UltimateNewbie
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Play with friends in a div of 3 perths or a hh. Fun for days. If solo play it like a Leander, and try to plan your smokes to end near islands.

Fun shios, you just have to really watch the smoke timer. Stealth is unreal on these ships. As long as you stop firing on time, you can find a safe island to fire over until your next smoke.

 

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I use the Perth to contest cap points and find the moving smoke cloud very effective.  Perth is not a plant in one spot type of ship and can be very effective at breaking an enemy push or blocking a choke point.  It is difficult to hit or torp inside of its smoke and is good at escorting injured BBs out of a conflict zone.  The moving smoke cloud is especially useful with the Smoke Upgrade Module.  Having a shorter cool down would be nice, of course...  

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I think the speed increase is the most useful buff. When I got back into the game, I was quite interested in the Perth style smoke, until I started playing against it and realized how easy it STILL is to torpedo spam. You don't have the aim indicator, but the cloud is so small, a little kentucky windage on the aim and you can still get kills. Being able to go half speed would make the blind torpedo beats much easier, without making it as OP as smoke used to be.

 

Matt

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1 minute ago, mobryan said:

I think the speed increase is the most useful buff. When I got back into the game, I was quite interested in the Perth style smoke, until I started playing against it and realized how easy it STILL is to torpedo spam. You don't have the aim indicator, but the cloud is so small, a little kentucky windage on the aim and you can still get kills. Being able to go half speed would make the blind torpedo beats much easier, without making it as OP as smoke used to be.

 

Matt

They all mount hydro... So you just played against some bad players. Hydro lasts close to the same time as smoke, and has basically the same cooldown.

The smoke upgrade module is a must have if you plan on sharing your tiny smoke puff.

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32 minutes ago, KaptainKaybe said:

Due to how current smoke mechanics works, you cannot move at more than a quarter speed to stay concealed while puffing. This means moving around around 8 or 9 knots, which is really pointless for any sort of aggressive play. And since the smoke cloud actually rests for 10 seconds before dissipating, it means that no matter what you do, it's always stupidly easy for enemy ships to roughly guess where you are since your smoke cloud is tiny and moving with you. Now, RN cruisers also suffer from this, but nowhere near as bad since you can still create an okay smoke cloud by moving at full speed, cutting speed just as your last puff spits out, and then backing up into your cloud.

The biggest issue in the concealment mechanics is the nerfing of the 2 km rule when inside smoke and firing.  That happened in 0.6.12. Now you're visible when firing out of a smoke cloud, depending on your gun caliber and distance of the spotting ship. I had used the Perth to aggressively Cap, but that is dependent on knowing where the radar ships are.

The problem I see with the Cossack having Perth style smoke is that she will be dependent on other ships to see outside, where the Perth has a Spotter/fighter consumable to do so.

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18 minutes ago, Bill_Halsey said:

The problem I see with the Cossack having Perth style smoke is that she will be dependent on other ships to see outside, where the Perth has a Spotter/fighter consumable to do so.

Well, every DD has this issue. My own concern with Cossack is a DD needs to move quickly and turn quickly to dual other DDs, so her smoke is useless for that. Sitting in her own smoke, as small as that cloud will be when she's sitting in it, means it's super easy to smoke torp her. And that moving smoke cloud, when shelling bigger ships, is strictly inferiour in every way to regular smoke clouds since those bigger ships can blind fire more easily into that very slow moving cloud ... and of course, once the cloud runs out, the cooldown will last foreeeeever. It'll make her smoke faaaar inferiour to every DD smoke as a consequence. And given how small the smoke clouds would be, it's kinda useless in a support role since a battleship as big as a Bismarck or Iowa would need to be literally hugging the DD to use it. I honestly see no point to any DD having the Perth style smoke at all. Not that I see a point in Perth having it either, lol. Perth would be a MUCH stronger cruiser if it had the Leader style smoke as it stands now.

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Separately to whether or not the Perth/Huang He smoke is any good or not is my concern over how well that style will work on a destroyer.

The emission time not counting against the cool down means you have 90s (or 117s with the special module) of emission followed by the standard cool-down of 160s. This means that (without JoaT/Flag etc) you're looking at 250-277s between smoke uses.

If you have to pop a smoke just to survive 20s, but are then unable to exploit it, or say you get radar'd because you're up close (and this is T7 not T6 like Perth/Huanghe) then you're really punished.

In contrast if you waste a smoke on the superb Pan-Asian version you're looking at 110 seconds until your next one is available. For the 'normal' smoke it's 180s from pressing the button. That is hugely more conducive to your survival than the 250-277s. Smoke is not just 'offensive' but 'defensive' as well.

 

The Perth can exploit it's creeping smoke far better than Cossack (or moreso Haida) likely will, as Perth brings it's own off-ship spotting in the form of a plane and longer-ranged hydro, meanwhile it mounts 8x 6in guns which given 90-117s of unimpeded and relatively close-range fire can be highly destructive. In contrast Haida or Cossack spending 90-117s bombarding targets with 6x or 8x 4.7in guns isn't nearly as imposing, especially given the shell arcs, it's very likely that in far less than the smoke run-time your target will retreat out of effective range of the 4.7in gun wasting your smoke.

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The cool down is the aspect that I would change. cool down doesn't start till after the last puff of smoke.

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Take a look at my recent ‘Holy...’ thread.

No issue whatsoever with Perth or its smoke.

To me, Leander and its worthless, soggy crumpet throwers, is the real garbage, unplayable ship.

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I average between 75 and 80k with all three ships.  I think they are fine.  Just more folks need a class on how to play them.  All of them can be ridiculous in farming if used properly.

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Yeah, the delay on ... well, I wanna call it "Commonwealth Smoke" needs to drop to no more than 60s with premium.  60s / 40s would be preferable.

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2 hours ago, KaptainKaybe said:

I'm seriously worried about the Cossack design. In the same way that Perth and HuangHe worry me. I'm *especially* worried they'll use this design on Haida, certainly one of the ships I've been most eagerly anticipating, being Canadian and all. When they announced that Cossack is being tested with Perth style smoke, I cringed.

Every other DD and all the RN cruisers can slot  a 'regular' smoke. Which is to say that it puffs for a short duration (RN cruisers have a MUCH shorter duration), but then they last for quite some time. Now in the case of most DDs, that means they can puff out a HUGE smoke cloud, slow down, and then have this huge smokey area to move back and forth that lasts anywhere from around 70s to 120s or so. Obviously, RN cruiser smoke clouds are a lot smaller, but still last a healthy chunk of time.

Perth smoke instead rests for only 10 seconds, but keeps puffing out non stop for 90s which seems like a really big deal. And it *should* be a big deal. But it's not.

Due to how current smoke mechanics works, you cannot move at more than a quarter speed to stay concealed while puffing. This means moving around around 8 or 9 knots, which is really pointless for any sort of aggressive play. And since the smoke cloud actually rests for 10 seconds before dissipating, it means that no matter what you do, it's always stupidly easy for enemy ships to roughly guess where you are since your smoke cloud is tiny and moving with you. Now, RN cruisers also suffer from this, but nowhere near as bad since you can still create an okay smoke cloud by moving at full speed, cutting speed just as your last puff spits out, and then backing up into your cloud.

But that's not in fact that worst problem. The worst is the *reload*. The way every single consumable in the game works is that the reload timer starts when the consumable active time stops. If you're a battleship using Repair Party, the consumable will heal you over time for 28s. When it stops healing you, it goes on it's 80s cooldown. Use Damage Control Party, same deal. Now in the case of regular smoke, the timer starts when the last puff puffs. But that smoke cloud is still sitting there for you to sit in. So let's take Kidd, for example. The smoke spits out for 28s, but then lasts for 124s. Which basically means your smoke cloud, assuming you're sitting where it last stopped puffing, will keep you safe for 128 seconds of her 160s reload, or 32 seconds of being unable to cover yourself in smoke. The Pan Asians have it even better ... the no smoke window is a measly 10 seconds! German DDs have it worst for regular smoke users at around 80s. In the case of Perth, the no smoke window is 160s - 10s smoke cloud ... 150s! That's TWO AND A HALF minutes, with the premium version, of not being able to use smoke to protect yourself! That's insane! There's no core gameplay mechanic consumable in the game that leaves you vulnerable this long. DDs and RN style fragile light cruisers *depend* on smoke to survive.

So suggestions:

- GREATLY reduce the cooldown on those smokes. As in down to 90s or less with the premium smoke. I'd say maybe even add an extra smoke charge, but that's probably asking a lot.
- Change the properties of the smoke so it's puff intervals are every half second to allow the ship to puff out smoke and stay concealed if going at half speed instead of merely a quarter speed. Wargaming wants an aggressive smoke ... then let the ship actually be aggressive. Plus it's a lot easier to dodge incoming torps if you're turning at 16 knots than it is if you're doing so at 8.

Honestly, I really dig the idea of Perth style smoke. It's really a neat gimmick and it should be embraced. But not in it's current form. It's far too weak. It didn't bother me so much that it was only on Perth as that's a seemingly one off cruiser. It didn't bother me so much on HuangHe as that cruiser is garbage regardless of anything you could add to it, lol. But now with Cossack being outfitted with it, and the potential of it being added to Haida as well as it's another Tribal class destroyer, and even worse that it could be the core smoke for an entire tech tree of RN or Commonwealth DDs, this needs to fixed ASAP as I really don't see this as being remotely playable in it's current form.

 

TL;DR: Perth style smoke forces you to only move at quarter speed and has a *monstrous* cooldown. Needs fixing.

Sorry

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