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Kagatori

Need help with Dodging as a Destroyer

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I'm a DD main. I have been since Beta. Looking back over my games over the last few months or so, I've noticed I'm starting to get stuck in a reoccurring pattern that I cant seam to break.. I'm not good at dodging, and I often get nailed with torpedoes less than 5 minutes after the match starts.

This typically happens with 1 of 3 scenarios;

1)  We have a cap and I'm sailing over from one cap to another to support allied ships (normally DD's). I'm not spotted or radio located, but torpedoes randomly show up broadside to my current path. I reduce speed and turn, but I don't really know the proper speed and rudder shift to get the angle right to avoid them, and I take 1. Either it sinks me or I"m left with 3k health or less.

2) I'm in a cap which is contested. None of the enemy has been spotted yet, so I stick around to contest the cap, but I have my rear facing the cap so I can run if needed. I get spotted, pop smoke when i start to lose some HP, and run away. I'm sailing away out of range, and torpedoes show up outside of my smoke. I try to avoid them, but cant get the angle right and take one on the side or rear of the ship. I might be 2/3 health from a gun battle, and 1 torpedo hit sends me back to port.

3) A CV spots me and cross drops 2 or 3 torpedo bombers. and I get sent back to port immediately.

Getting sent to port each time I get hit by them, doesn't really teach me how to avoid them.. I've tried turning towards them, or turning away, and changing speed, but each torpedo send is different, different km/hr, different detection, different angles. What works for one set of torpedoes, If I try to reproduce it, it doesn't work the second time.

So basically my question is; Is there any way to practice dodging torpedoes or somehow improve avoiding them?

I would like to be better at dodging them, but the game isn't giving me enough information on what I need to change. I watch lots of videos on WoWs from several CC contributors, but I see myself doing the exact same things they do, so I don't understand why it work's for them and not me.

Here is a replay file to show what I mean:

20180519_114412_PJSD518-Asashio_28_naval_mission.wowsreplay

and

20180519_124403_PJSD518-Asashio_47_Sleeping_Giant.wowsreplay

Thanks in advance to anyone who can assist.

Edited by Kagatori

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I wouldn't slow down in the first scenario. Keeping your speed will help you maneuver better. Yes, slowing down does make your turns a bit tighter, but it also reduces your ability to respond and correct yourself.

Also, be aware of what allies are behind you. It sounds like your running into torps that were meant for a battleship behind you. If you're in front of your BBs, be extra aware for torpedoes, as you'll be the one to spot them, and enemy DDs will be targeting them. Lastly, try to avoid running across choke points early in the game when the team' are vying for positions. That's when DDs are most likely to fire blind volleys, especially into channels and common areas players move to. You should probably already know this as a DD main. If you would fire a blind volley into a specific area, then don't go sailing there yourself if your team hasn't located all the red DDs.

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28 minutes ago, GhostSwordsman said:

I wouldn't slow down in the first scenario. Keeping your speed will help you maneuver better. Yes, slowing down does make your turns a bit tighter, but it also reduces your ability to respond and correct yourself.

Most ships have the tightest turn at 3/4 speed and actually widen their turns at 1/2 and 1/4 speeds*. However, even though your turn is the tightest at 3/4, you go through your turn faster at 4/4. It's a choice - do you need to turn tight or NOW?

 

*Mouse and I have tested many, many ships and I've yet to see an example of a ship this doesn't hold true for. However, we've not tested all ships, and unlikely exceptions could exist. I don't expect them to, though.

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Situational awareness of your surroundings where the torpedoes are coming where the bombs are being dropped where the ships are.  It's all about situational awareness and being able to see which direction things are coming in at you from.  You are in a destroyer you are faster than other ships, you have to plan things out further ahead than you normally would.  I will say again it's all about situational awareness. 

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1 hour ago, Lert said:

Most ships have the tightest turn at 3/4 speed and actually widen their turns at 1/2 and 1/4 speeds*. However, even though your turn is the tightest at 3/4, you go through your turn faster at 4/4. It's a choice - do you need to turn tight or NOW?

 

*Mouse and I have tested many, many ships and I've yet to see an example of a ship this doesn't hold true for. However, we've not tested all ships, and unlikely exceptions could exist. I don't expect them to, though.

Here's a question out of curiosity: Does a ship bleeding speed in a turn affect the overall turning circle?

For example, IJN DDs bleed a lot of speed in a turn. Going full port or starboard, they tend to end up only going at speed as if they were already at 3/4 speed. Not all DDs are that poor at keeping speed in a turn, but all ships do bleed some speed in turns. That's the only reason why I suggest not slowing down(at least not intially, as in until you're sure you'll dodge the torpedoes or when you can tell that slowing down will help you dodge them), as doing so tends to slow you down even further when you do turn. The slower you're going the harder it'll be to respond to things such as incoming torpedoes.

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1 minute ago, GhostSwordsman said:

Here's a question out of curiosity: Does a ship bleeding speed in a turn affect the overall turning circle?

I should qualify, when I say a 3/4 speed turn, I mean a turn at 3/4 throttle. Ships turn tightest when holding the speed you get with throttle set to 3/4.

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Thanks for the replies above.

A few more questions;

1)

14 minutes ago, Lert said:

I should qualify, when I say a 3/4 speed turn, I mean a turn at 3/4 throttle. Ships turn tightest when holding the speed you get with throttle set to 3/4.

I've always had Propulsion Modification 2 installed on my DD's instead of Steering Gears Modification 2.

I was always under the assumption Propulsion Modification 2 is better since it lets you leave an area faster, like if your in smoke and incoming torpedoes, or you get radar'ed?

Should I be swapping this out and installing Steering Gears Modification 2 instead? And would Steering Gears Modification 2 make the ship loose less speed in a turn from faster rudder shift, and make the turn tighter? Or would the added speed from the quicker rudder shift cause you to "drift" more causing your turning arc to be larger?

 

2)

1 hour ago, SuperSpud1 said:

I will say again it's all about situational awareness. 

Situational awareness in regards to what though? That's a very broad.  Do you mean like keeping tabs on where enemy and allied ships are? I leave last known position on the mini-map to give me a general idea of where ships might be headed. But that dosen't help you for ships which have not yet been spotted.

image.png

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  I don't have steering gears mod at all on any of my destroyers.  If torps are coming at you, or even say a ship or shells, you just have to plan ahead for it and steer out of the way accordingly.

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14 minutes ago, Kagatori said:

I've always had Propulsion Modification 2 installed on my DD's instead of Steering Gears Modification 2.

I was always under the assumption Propulsion Modification 2 is better since it lets you leave an area faster, like if your in smoke and incoming torpedoes, or you get radar'ed?

Should I be swapping this out and installing Steering Gears Modification 2 instead? And would Steering Gears Modification 2 make the ship loose less speed in a turn from faster rudder shift, and make the turn tighter? Or would the added speed from the quicker rudder shift cause you to "drift" more causing your turning arc to be larger?

I've not done tests regarding these modules, so I honestly don't know. I should run some tests tomorrow, if I remember to.

I know steering gears mod 2 doesn't affect time-through-turn, as it only affects the speed of rudder deflection, not the amount of rudder deflection.

However, I don't know if prop mod 2 affects speed bleed, that is worth testing. That said, I haven't tested this. Maybe Mouse has, I don't know.

If you want to, you can test this yourself. The methodology Mouse and me use is as follows:

- Bring your ship without prop mod 2 to the throttle setting you want to test, IE, 1/4, 1/2, 3/4 or 4/4, and wait for the speed to stabilize.
- Go full deflection on rudder and again wait for the ship's speed to stabilize.
- Pick a cardinal direction, and start a stopwatch when the ship points in that direction.
- Do a few full laps laps to minimize human error in timing, say, 4 or 5 laps.
- Time how long the ship takes to do the chosen amount of laps, divide total time by number of laps.
- Do this again at the same speed setting, but with prop mod 2.
- Congratulations, you now have an idea of the time investment, tedium and credit cost Mouse and me subject ourselves to willingly, for the community.

We use this methodology (without the prop mod 2 finagling) to determine the turning circles of ships at different speed settings. If you know the speed traveled and the time taken, you can calculate the distance traveled. With distance traveled you can calculate the turning circle diameter.

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3 hours ago, Lert said:

However, I don't know if prop mod 2 affects speed bleed, that is worth testing. That said, I haven't tested this. Maybe Mouse has, I don't know.

I went ahead and saved you the trouble and tested it. I just did a replay file and played it back second by second and recorded the ships speeds in an excel sheet. I only tested one ship though, so the sample size is small and has room for error.

But the main point is that the values were different, so it does show there is *something* there that is different.

i did 8 tests in total. All tests were full rudders. 4 Were at the different speeds (Full, 3/4, 1/2 and 1/4) without the module, and 4 with the module.

Note: I disregarded my tests for 1/4 speed, because ships do not "bleed" speed at 1/4 throttle. The knots at full rudder and no rudder at 1/4 throttle is exactly the same.

Now onto the results..

Test 1: Full Speed (35.1 knots) at Full Rudder.

With Steering Gears Modification 2 the ship lost less speed during the turn, and had significantly more speed at the beginning of the turn.

image.png.7b7bd75d87895268aeaaabab0503d131.png

Test 2: 3/4 Speed (26.2 knots) at Full Rudder.

With Steering Gears Modification 2 the ship lost less speed during the turn. The module gave the ship more speed at the beginning of the turn, but it evened out at about 11 seconds.

image.png.d8b31ce449669ab74a57080f05340299.png

Test 3: 1/2 Speed (17.4 knots) at Full Rudder.

With Steering Gears Modification 2 the ship lost less speed during the turn but it was hardly noticeable.

image.png.420d1c78a72894c87dc07b0939400396.png

Again, this was only 1 ship, and a small sample size.

So yes the rudder module does indeed reduce speed "bleeding" during a turn, in addition to adding more speed at the end of a turn, especially if the turn is under 10 seconds.

Edited by Kagatori
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Just now, Kagatori said:

I went ahead and saved you the trouble and tested it. I just did a replay file and played it back second by second and recorded the ships speeds in an excel sheet. I only tested one ship though, so the sample size is small and has room for error.

But the main point is that the values were different, so it does show there is *something* there that is different.

i did 8 tests in total. All tests were full rudders. 4 Were at the different speeds (Full, 3/4, 1/2 and 1/4) without the module, and 4 with the module.

Note: I disregarded my tests for 1/4 speed, because ships do not "bleed" speed at 1/4 throttle. The knots at full rudder and no rudder at 1/4 throttle is exactly the same.

Now onto the results..

Test 1: Full Speed (35.1 knots) at Full Rudder.

With Steering Gears Modification 2 the ship lost less speed during the turn, and had more speed during the turn, especially at the front end of the turn.

image.png.7b7bd75d87895268aeaaabab0503d131.png

Test 2: 3/4 Speed (26.2 knots) at Full Rudder.

With Steering Gears Modification 2 the ship lost less speed during the turn. The module gave the ship more speed at the beginning of the turn, but it evened out at about 11 seconds.

image.png.d8b31ce449669ab74a57080f05340299.png

Test 3: 1/2 Speed (17.4 knots) at Full Rudder.

With Steering Gears Modification 2 the ship lost less speed during the turn but it was hardly noticeable.

image.png.420d1c78a72894c87dc07b0939400396.png

Again, this was only 1 ship, and a small sample size.

So yes the rudder module does indeed reduce speed "bleeding" during a turn, in addition to adding more speed at the end of a turn, especially if the turn is under 10 seconds.

Thank you for testing! If I read this correctly though, it takes longer for the speed to stabilize during a turn, but in the end it stabilizes at the same speed in a sustained turn, with or without mod?

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27 minutes ago, Lert said:

Thank you for testing! If I read this correctly though, it takes longer for the speed to stabilize during a turn, but in the end it stabilizes at the same speed in a sustained turn, with or without mod?

Correct, so the mod reduces the "bleed rate" of the turn, which means it takes longer for the ship to reach the "sustained turn" speed. In the end, it still stabilizes at the "sustained turn" speed with or without the mod.

 

I would also make the assumption that over the duration of the turn, the arc of the turn would be slightly smaller and larger at certain points because the ship is moving "faster" through the turn.

For example, if you took test 1, and froze the ships at 5 seconds into the turn;

The ship with the mod is going at 33.0 knots. The ship without the mod is going 32.3 knots.

We do know that ships traveling at 3 knots can make a tighter turn than ships at 30 knots, so one could assume that the "momentum" of the extra 0.7 knots is pushing the ship farther outwards in a turning arc.

Something like this:

image.png.48ff930f28d5cad931edf5df8fdeebab.png

I know WoWs doesnt always follow real world physics. But I don't have any way to verify this in-game, so at this point it is just an assumption.

Edited by Kagatori

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5 minutes ago, Kagatori said:

I know WoWs doesnt always follow real world physics. But I don't have any way to verify this in-game, so at this point it is just an assumption.

I know from extensive testing with dozens of ships of all types (except CVs) across all tiers that in this game ships traveling at 1/4 speed make a wider turn than those traveling at 3/4 speed.

To test this take a ship, get to a stable, sustained speed at full rudder deflection, time how long it takes for a lap. With speed and time you can calculate distance, distance around a circle is circumference and with the circumference known you can calculate the diameter / radius of the turning circle.

In Mouse and my experience, the 3/4 throttle turning circle is the tightest and the 4/4 one takes the least time to complete a lap. 1/2 and 1/4 tend to be the widest circles.

Thank you again for your test work with prop mod 2, its good data, and though the sample size is very small, I have no reason to believe other ships would behave differently. What ship did you use?

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17 minutes ago, Lert said:

To test this take a ship, get to a stable, sustained speed at full rudder deflection, time how long it takes for a lap.

I might be misunderstanding, but I don't think you can measure the curve that way though, can you?

Because the mod doesn't affect the "sustained turn speed". You would only want to measure the first 14 seconds of the turn (The time it takes for a ship to reach "sustained turn speed" with or without the mod), which is not enough time to complete a full lap, right? Or am I misunderstanding?

I can do a full lap with and without the mod, but that will only give me an average of the whole lap including the time after the ship already reached the "sustained turn speed". It wont show the shape of the curve during the first 10 seconds of the turn.

I have an idea to try though. if I can put my ship in the "exact" same spot, and use a smoke screen, and look down from overhead in a replay. And then use that same smokescreen without the mod, it will show me the exact shape of the curve. I'll try and see if I can do that.

Edited by Kagatori

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2 minutes ago, Kagatori said:

I might be misunderstanding, but I don't think you can measure the curve that way though, can you?

Because the mod doesn't affect the "sustained turn speed". You would only want to measure the first 14 seconds of the turn (The time it takes for a ship to reach "sustained turn speed" with or without the mod), which is not enough time to complete a full lap, right? Or am I misunderstanding?

You're completely right, I was thinking about something else, mea culpa.

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7 hours ago, Kagatori said:

1)  We have a cap and I'm sailing over from one cap to another to support allied ships (normally DD's). I'm not spotted or radio located, but torpedoes randomly show up broadside to my current path. I reduce speed and turn, but I don't really know the proper speed and rudder shift to get the angle right to avoid them, and I take 1. Either it sinks me or I"m left with 3k health or less.

Gauging the proper speed/angle to dodge a spread of torpedoes is something which only comes with practice.  If you aren't getting enough of that practice in during random battles, you could always try creating a training room and having a friend try to torpedo while you try to dodge.

I skimmed through your research involving turning times in relation to ship speed, but the absolute fastest way to turn in the smallest radius possible involves chopping your throttle as you initiate the turn and then bringing it right back up as you get your nose to the desired heading.  This is even more effective when your speed boost is active.  The tricky part with this is that every ship obviously has different turning and acceleration characteristics, even more so when factoring in module choices, to it once again comes down to time in ship and getting a good handle on that handling.

7 hours ago, Kagatori said:

2) I'm in a cap which is contested. None of the enemy has been spotted yet, so I stick around to contest the cap, but I have my rear facing the cap so I can run if needed. I get spotted, pop smoke when i start to lose some HP, and run away. I'm sailing away out of range, and torpedoes show up outside of my smoke. I try to avoid them, but cant get the angle right and take one on the side or rear of the ship. I might be 2/3 health from a gun battle, and 1 torpedo hit sends me back to port.

Always expect torpedoes when you're in a contested cap...heck, expect them even when the cap is uncontested unless you can account for every torpedo ship on the enemy team.  The key factor is having a good guess at exactly where unspotted enemy torpedo ships are most likely to be given the terrain, time in battle, and performance characteristics of the opposing vessels and thus angling your ship to minimize the chances of taking one, whether while stationary or running.  Even doing all of that, it's still going to hinge on how precise you are with your steering on a given ship, which once again comes with...time.  These are often the situations where simply slowing down once you're close to where you want to be pointing is best--your rudder adjustments are obviously going to be more accurate at lower speeds vs. higher.  That said, if you're still spotted and taking fire it's better to keep going full speed and risk eating a torp rather than slow down and guarantee eating numerous shells.

7 hours ago, Kagatori said:

3) A CV spots me and cross drops 2 or 3 torpedo bombers. and I get sent back to port immediately.

Against a good carrier player in a ship capable of manually dropping torpedoes, the best you can realistically hope to do is only take one or two hits.  It's maybe not fair to us, but it's the reality of the game and that carrier player payed their dues to get that good.  Against a lesser opponent, there are things you can do to make their job harder:

  • First and foremost, if you're already plane spotted you lose nothing by activating your AA guns and manually targeting the closest squadron.  Every plane you shoot down is one less to worry about later, or even if there isn't a "later" it's a smidge more XP for the battle.
  • If there's a friendly cruiser or battleship nearby, turn toward them as soon as you know you're going to be detected by those aircraft.  Not only will their AA help you out, the carrier might decide to drop on that bigger target instead of you.
  • Do not do anything which will excessively bleed your speed until the planes are committed to their drop.  More speed = more options in this scenario.
  • If there are islands nearby, try to hug one as closely as possible while still maintaining said speed.  This effectively eliminates some angles from which the carrier player can drop.
  • Turn in to the first squadron to commit to an attack run, even before they've dropped their torpedoes (you can tell they're committed when the planes fan out into line abreast formation).  Plane-launched torpedoes have a minimum arming distance, and I've frustrated many cross-drop attempts by running straight into one spread before they've had time to arm.
  • Don't let yourself eat 2 torps from one squadron while dodging one torpedo from another.  In most cases you can survive a single air-launched torpedo hit, even two or three in higher tiers, so don't be afraid to take a hit if it allows you to dodge others.

Above all, keep in mind that even Yuro and other famous torpedo-dodgers take their share of torp hits.  Those just don't generally make the videos. :Smile_teethhappy:

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57 minutes ago, Kagatori said:

I have an idea to try though. if I can put my ship in the "exact" same spot, and use a smoke screen, and look down from overhead in a replay. And then use that same smokescreen without the mod, it will show me the exact shape of the curve. I'll try and see if I can do that.

Here it is for anyone who is curious;

Red path is without the rudder mod, blue path is with the rudder mod.

path.thumb.png.377cb0097118a27b6a6c80f5c18876ad.png

And apparently smoke does not generate in the center of your ship when turning? I guess it generates where your rear is. I never knew this.

P.S. I read over all the replies for advice. Thank you for everyone who offered suggestions to my original post. I will try my best to learn from them and apply them.

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