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LunchCutter

Why are high tier games usually sooo 1 sided?

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..for me anyway. It seems most of my tier 8+ games are 1 sided annihilations. Sometimes I'm on the team that does the roflstomp but often my team just gets smashed... A earlier game my side lost 4 ships in the first 3 minutes for zero enemy loss... Someone on my side called them a 'bunch of n00bs' but that means they are newbies and if they are piloting tier 9-10 boats they should have a decent amount of games under their belt and a decent understanding that charging off and attacking by yourself is suicide. It just seems the most fun games seem to be the tier 5-7 area. Lots are close and fairly balanced matches, but it seems rare to get this in the upper scale. Watching my teams Yamato go up the middle on Two Brothers at the start and quickly getting torped to death his excuse 'aw didn't think they'd be expecting that trick'.

 Had 3 rubbish games in a row tonight in both the Benson and the North Carolina, each game we were completely wiped out by a vastly superior side, the last 2 games we only sunk 1 ship.. Very unbalanced skill mixing and cringe worthy watching 'Yolo!' players try and attack all by themselves against multiple enemies.

 Not sure if MM could possibly look at skill mixing as these types of games are really not much fun.

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The high tier game are like domino's lined up to hit each other. Once a team loses two or three ships early the other team has a huge advantage that is seldom neutralized for a win.

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If you think this game is bad for one sides beat downs, try World of Tanks.  That is almost playable for me now, almost every single game ends in 3 minutes and is a complete one sided garbage beat down for one sided or the otber.

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2 minutes ago, StingRayOne said:

The high tier game are like domino's lined up to hit each other. Once a team loses two or three ships early the other team has a huge advantage that is seldom neutralized for a win.

That is two good looking birds in one post. Most Lewd, OP. +21 :cap_like:

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I have found that I can secure the top spot on my team when we lose by playing aggressively and taking a cap despite doing paltry damage and dying in the first 4 minutes of the game in my Baltimore.

 

I really dont understand the allure of passive play when I watch bbs and cruisers at a standstill or moving backwards very slowly get sunk by  a wall of skill from a flanking destroyer.

 

maybe some players are aces at passive play.....but some people obviously arent.

 

any math or statistics nerds ever do a chart showing ships death locations in wins vs losses?

 

it would be interesting to see if people playing in or one column away (column A,B,C, ETC)from their spawn point results in more wins than losses.

 

 

Edited by MokrieDela

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2 minutes ago, Hawk7389 said:

If you think this game is bad for one sides beat downs, try World of Tanks.  That is almost playable for me now, almost every single game ends in 3 minutes and is a complete one sided garbage beat down for one sided or the otber.

Lol that is why I ended up with reputation for being a master sniper in WOT that hits that target pretty much every time lol.

Had a friend I was platooned with and he was getting surrounded. He told me after I kept saving him and wondered where in the map I had been because enemy would come around the content and explode just as they were trying to take aim at each other,, next tank went up behind him, and another coming towards him. Lol nothing like having couple good friends that know each other like a book so if one is a good sniper the other can take a forward position and manage not to block any of the shots of the sniper, that takes practice and trust lol.

Might be part of what happens in WOT though if clueless teams are currently online since as I just gave an example of if you have couple experienced players they can quickly tear through enemy tanks if enemy team does not catch on to what is happening.

 

World of Warships is little different since it is naval warfare. I have noticed WOWs with Summer or Weekend teams can boil down to how many ships are shooting AP so they can Citadel enemy ships, how many ships are sailing broadside begging to be citadeled, which side has some ships that will focus fire and coordinate a little, Radar ships can make a difference but only if used correctly. The list can go on, but sitting back and sniping like I can do in World of Tanks does not work as well in WOWs since the 2 games are so different.

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Why are high tier games usually sooo 1 sided?

my hunch is that it's likely the same reasons low and middle tier games are often lopsided 

Edited by Dr_Dirt

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because there is no real MM to speak of, because horribly unbalanced teams (skill wise), because yolo, because high tier can punish mistakes very hard, snowball effect, etc...

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1 hour ago, StingRayOne said:

The high tier game are like domino's lined up to hit each other. Once a team loses two or three ships early the other team has a huge advantage that is seldom neutralized for a win.

Yes, yes,yes

Low Tier games are easily decided by who is the Captain of the CV. At least our Tier 8+ CV Jockeys arn’t from wildly different skill levels.  I have moved five of my 19 point Captains to Tier 10 and left two at Tier 8 because of how much more enjoyable it is to play high tier games.   When it comes to Random I prefer Tiers 8+.  Great ships and great players. 

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Stingray hit the nail on the head.

The higher the tier, the more deadly the ships, and once one side is at a 2 ship disadvantage, it's over pretty fast. And I've found many tier 8 ship guys BUY a ship with less than 600 games, so they are also at a disadvantage in skill at the higher tier.

At tier 8 there is a different meta. (and it is because one mistake can take you out of the game)

Inexperienced players that get to the higher tiers too fast, get wiped out just as fast. So if they are on your team (or three of them) you are down 3 ships very fast. And if they are on "reds" your team rolls!

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3 hours ago, Hawk7389 said:

If you think this game is bad for one sides beat downs, try World of Tanks.  That is almost playable for me now, almost every single game ends in 3 minutes and is a complete one sided garbage beat down for one sided or the otber.

This is SOOO true.  It's really painful for me to play now.

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One-sided battles are the norm, but occasionally you can get in a good position to turn things around. Had that twice this week in Shimakaze and Missouri, but only because very experienced w/ minimap reading, positioning, and planning.

That said, they are very annoying after T7. Hard to accept potatoes can fail all the way to T10 and be just as clueless as at T5.

Edited by Reymu

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4 hours ago, LunchCutter said:

..for me anyway. It seems most of my tier 8+ games are 1 sided annihilations. Sometimes I'm on the team that does the roflstomp but often my team just gets smashed... A earlier game my side lost 4 ships in the first 3 minutes for zero enemy loss... Someone on my side called them a 'bunch of n00bs' but that means they are newbies and if they are piloting tier 9-10 boats they should have a decent amount of games under their belt and a decent understanding that charging off and attacking by yourself is suicide. It just seems the most fun games seem to be the tier 5-7 area. Lots are close and fairly balanced matches, but it seems rare to get this in the upper scale. Watching my teams Yamato go up the middle on Two Brothers at the start and quickly getting torped to death his excuse 'aw didn't think they'd be expecting that trick'.

 Had 3 rubbish games in a row tonight in both the Benson and the North Carolina, each game we were completely wiped out by a vastly superior side, the last 2 games we only sunk 1 ship.. Very unbalanced skill mixing and cringe worthy watching 'Yolo!' players try and attack all by themselves against multiple enemies.

 Not sure if MM could possibly look at skill mixing as these types of games are really not much fun.

shot-18.05.18_22.07.jpg

Because random is Random

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9 hours ago, Hawk7389 said:

If you think this game is bad for one sides beat downs, try World of Tanks.  That is almost playable for me now, almost every single game ends in 3 minutes and is a complete one sided garbage beat down for one sided or the otber.

I used to play WoT but the horrible gun accuracy, cone of rng and the repetitive nature of it out me off. I had a game last week for the first time in years but it hasn't aged well. Ground Forces is vastly superior. 

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On 5/18/2018 at 5:23 AM, LunchCutter said:

..for me anyway. It seems most of my tier 8+ games are 1 sided annihilations.

Last year I gathered about a hundred games of data on this. In high tier matches most games are never in doubt, or outright collapses. 
 

The reasons are obvious. 

1) Small differences in RNG quickly accumulate -- if 1/3 pens become cit hits, then a cruiser can die early. The firepower disparity then quickly compounds.

2) the choked, channeled, unplayable maps cut teams into little pieces that lead to quick collapses. Say that both teams are cut into identical 6 ship divisions on two parts of the map. If one ship from the red team in each half dies, green suddenly has a two ship advantage, and is well on their way to winning, even though the advantage isn't great locally. Note that there are only four possible outcomes: red and green trade, red and green trade, red up two ships, green up two ships. Thus, 50% of outcomes on choked, channeled high tier crapmaps are potential collapses in which one side is down a couple of ships right from the get-go.

3) CVs and detonations add pointless cancer damage and kill ships before they can fulfill their damage potential. Their effect is particularly noxious when they kill capping DDs. Causing collapses and returning players to the queue is the sole purpose of those worthless, unethical game mechanics. 

4) High tier ships have stupidly fast ROF, which magnifies (1) and (2) above. Any ship, irrespective of the size of its health pool, that wanders into range early can easily be focused and killed in under a minute. The fire chance of high tier ships is also absurdly high.

5) The team with a +1 advantage in radar, or in divisions, or in players who have Rank 1-5 wins over 60% of the time. Radar drives collapses by taking DDs out of the game early, permitting the team with the still-living DDs to control space and push into it to wreck the other team in crossfires.

6)  The two-tier MM spread means that the higher tier boats have a supply of low tier fodder ships which often die quickly, triggering collapses as the firepower advantage escalates. That's why there is a two-tier MM spread, it gets ships killed quickly and returns the players to the queue faster. It also gives them an incentive to grind to more powerful ships.

7) Many players are experienced and good, and can easily tip the scales from defeat to outright collapse by their presence in the game, or quickly exploit mistakes. Giving broadside to a competent high tier BB player is usually suicide because high tier BBs combine good dispersion with experienced players, whereas at the lower tiers battleships like New York, Fuso, or Lyon can spam out shells, but can seldom put very many on target and are more forgiving of mistakes.

8) The CV skill disparity leads directly to collapses -- in most high tier games in which a CV appears, one side or the other has a large skill advantage with a predictable outcomes.

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14 hours ago, Taichunger said:

Last year I gathered about a hundred games of data on this. In high tier matches most games are never in doubt, or outright collapses. 
 

The reasons are obvious. 

1) Small differences in RNG quickly accumulate -- if 1/3 pens become cit hits, then a cruiser can die early. The firepower disparity then quickly compounds.

2) the choked, channeled, unplayable maps cut teams into little pieces that lead to quick collapses. Say that both teams are cut into identical 6 ship divisions on two parts of the map. If one ship from the red team in each half dies, green suddenly has a two ship advantage, and is well on their way to winning, even though the advantage isn't great locally. Note that there are only four possible outcomes: red and green trade, red and green trade, red up two ships, green up two ships. Thus, 50% of outcomes on choked, channeled high tier crapmaps are potential collapses in which one side is down a couple of ships right from the get-go.

3) CVs and detonations add pointless cancer damage and kill ships before they can fulfill their damage potential. Their effect is particularly noxious when they kill capping DDs. Causing collapses and returning players to the queue is the sole purpose of those worthless, unethical game mechanics. 

4) High tier ships have stupidly fast ROF, which magnifies (1) and (2) above. Any ship, irrespective of the size of its health pool, that wanders into range early can easily be focused and killed in under a minute. The fire chance of high tier ships is also absurdly high.

5) The team with a +1 advantage in radar, or in divisions, or in players who have Rank 1-5 wins over 60% of the time. Radar drives collapses by taking DDs out of the game early, permitting the team with the still-living DDs to control space and push into it to wreck the other team in crossfires.

6)  The two-tier MM spread means that the higher tier boats have a supply of low tier fodder ships which often die quickly, triggering collapses as the firepower advantage escalates. That's why there is a two-tier MM spread, it gets ships killed quickly and returns the players to the queue faster. It also gives them an incentive to grind to more powerful ships.

7) Many players are experienced and good, and can easily tip the scales from defeat to outright collapse by their presence in the game, or quickly exploit mistakes. Giving broadside to a competent high tier BB player is usually suicide because high tier BBs combine good dispersion with experienced players, whereas at the lower tiers battleships like New York, Fuso, or Lyon can spam out shells, but can seldom put very many on target and are more forgiving of mistakes.

8) The CV skill disparity leads directly to collapses -- in most high tier games in which a CV appears, one side or the other has a large skill advantage with a predictable outcomes.

9) Without an experienced CV to counter them, experienced DDs can quickly gain map control and keep the entire enemy team spotted and (those that can) send torps from multiple sides onto any feasible resistance from the other team. 

Edited by GabeTheDespot
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Because wg can't balance stupid?

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I only have 30 games or so at tier 8 and couple hundred with some tier sevens but I actually have enjoyed it more and my winning percentage (which I realize I don't really control...only contribute to) is much higher than for lower tiers.  Granted, it took me 1000 battles to figure out the basics on DD, BB, and CA and get comfortable with the stats/play style for each of the lower tier ships but players at the higher tiers on my teams seem to suggest and then follow a general plan once someone speaks up...doesn't happen often at lower tiers...as soon as someone says lets take A & B...one or two ships set sail for a suicide mission to C.  Also most battles have come down to five or six ships on one side and three or four on the other for me.  It will probably normalize itself out as I play them more, but so far so good.

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at t10,  effective  fighting range is 15km+ for most ships.      if you can't perform well at range (or have enough situation awareness  if playing DD0  you won't do well at high tier.  

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21 hours ago, GabeTheDespot said:

9) Without an experienced CV to counter them, experienced DDs can quickly gain map control and keep the entire enemy team spotted and (those that can) send torps from multiple sides onto any feasible resistance from the other team. 

But in that case, DDs from both sides cancel each other out. Then it becomes an issue of individual skill and RNG.

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17 minutes ago, Taichunger said:

But in that case, DDs from both sides cancel each other out. Then it becomes an issue of individual skill and RNG.

Only if there is a perfect balance of skill will the primary determining factor be RNG, as can be noticed (to a greater extent) when a CV is more experienced, which is more frequent in matches with CVs, as there are 1 per side usually. Although massive DD skill disparity is rather infrequent, there are a lot more matches with DDs to roll that chance! DDs have a slightly lower skill floor than CA/CLs, but a much higher ceiling to boot, and they can have much more effect on a match than them much more easily. 

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1. Many players don't get any better once they reach high tier. They fail their way from Tiers 1-4 into Tiers 5-7 and into 8-10. If you keep playing and accumulate lots and lots of battles, eventually you'll get there somehow, even if it means your team's usually carrying you and you don't contribute much or at all.

 

2. High tier meta is extremely campy and calculative. It's all about who makes the most mistakes, not who puts up the best fight. If one team ends up making many more mistakes compared to the other team, they're swiftly punished for it by big guns, HE spam, and torpedoes. You can't get away with a lot of stuff that you can get away with at mid and lower tiers.

 

It's for these reasons that I currently have no plan to progress beyond Tier 7. I've played a few matches at Tier 8 and was immediately turned off by the passive gameplay. I guess not going beyond Tier 7 makes me a 'casual' in the eyes of some, but trust me I'm not exactly a 'casual' player. If one day high tier matches became aggressive and pushy as the norm, I'd totally go above Tier 7.

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On 5/18/2018 at 9:23 AM, LunchCutter said:

..for me anyway. It seems most of my tier 8+ games are 1 sided annihilations. Sometimes I'm on the team that does the roflstomp but often my team just gets smashed... A earlier game my side lost 4 ships in the first 3 minutes for zero enemy loss... Someone on my side called them a 'bunch of n00bs' but that means they are newbies and if they are piloting tier 9-10 boats they should have a decent amount of games under their belt and a decent understanding that charging off and attacking by yourself is suicide. It just seems the most fun games seem to be the tier 5-7 area. Lots are close and fairly balanced matches, but it seems rare to get this in the upper scale. Watching my teams Yamato go up the middle on Two Brothers at the start and quickly getting torped to death his excuse 'aw didn't think they'd be expecting that trick'.

 Had 3 rubbish games in a row tonight in both the Benson and the North Carolina, each game we were completely wiped out by a vastly superior side, the last 2 games we only sunk 1 ship.. Very unbalanced skill mixing and cringe worthy watching 'Yolo!' players try and attack all by themselves against multiple enemies.

 Not sure if MM could possibly look at skill mixing as these types of games are really not much fun.

shot-18.05.18_22.07.jpg

Why are they rubbish? Because WG has a tendency to stack 1 team w/better players than the other. 

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8 hours ago, MajorRenegade said:

Because wg can't balance stupid?

I knew I should have scrolled down before I answered...dammitman! Ya cain't feex shtupid!

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