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_RC1138

0.7.5, Commanders, and what went down for RU DD Split

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So WGing has detailed the whats and hows of the USN Cruiser split and it is working pretty exactly as expected, but that means, as expected, that commander shifts among the line are going to be a nightmare. See while it was somewhat annoying during the RU DD split, most of the standard skill builds translated from T5 to the T10; PM, EM/LS, DE/SI, IFHE/AFT. Your millage may vary, but a commander that was on say, the old T7 Kiev, that got transferred to the incoming Minsk, wasn't at a huge disadvantage in the same configuration on the new ship.

That however, will not be valid at all on this split. Taken as expected, Commanders will stay at their tier, not their ship. So if you have a T6 USN Commander, he will stay at T6, even as the ships move around him. This is a much bigger problem than it was for the RU DD's due to the fundamental HUGE differences between the various tier ships.

For example, again, your millage may vary, but the 'most common' optimal 19 pnt USN T6 Cruiser (Cleveland) Commander is: PM, EM/HA or LS, DE/BoS or BFT, IFHE/CE with the IFHE being a *required* skill as I have proven elsewhere empirically:

With that being the case, and given that the Commanders will stay *at TIER* not ship, this build, which includes the vital IFHE, will be shifted to the new Pensacola T6. Problem is that build is totally incompatible with the Pensacola. A Pensacola, optimal, is be served with a, PM, EM/LS, DE/BoS, CE/MAA or AFT. It's different enough from the Clevelands that you wouldn't want the current T6 Commander on your new T6 CA. This holds true elsewhere; a T9 Baltimore Commander is not exactly optimized to how the Buffalo seems to be playing (LS on the Buffalo seems to be needed given how often it's rudder gets knocked out, likewise the higher emphasis on AA power on the Buffalo vs. the Balt seems to me that AFT instead of an extra 3 and 1 point skill (given how most of the T4 skills don't benefit a Balt at the moment (just CE really)).

Given this, and the way Commander will (not) be moved, it comes down to that Wargaming needs to provide either free respecs (even if limited exclusively to USN Commanders) or free retraining (so that you can move your commanders 'back' to their correct ships (take the 'new' Pensacola's Commander and put him back on the new T8 Cleveland, even though the Cleveland's build needs to change to include SI given it's new Radar advantage)) or move them to other ships if you decide you no longer want them on a Cruiser.

Personally, I have 19 point commanders on every USN Cruiser from T6 to T10 (including the Pensacola), plus a transfer from a different USN ship where I intend to place Halsey (and that commander is also 19 points), so I am look at potentially 125k*5=625k (assuming I pay the 200k credits) Commander XP, earned or spent, to get me back to JUST where I was before. And I know I'm not the only one who will have that scramble.

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I believe a while after the patch discounted respecs will be put on offer. From a financial viewpoint this would be a sound tactic to take advantage of the situation you just described. That said, I agree with your points and hope (though I know I am just kidding myself) that maybe respecs will be offered for free, at least for the Pensacola tier shift to Cleveland's spot.

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I agree. IF they won't let us put the Capt's in Reserve (with a new 0 pt Capt on the affected ships that will be moved thus leaving the Reserve Capt still assigned to original ship) they need to allow a free move/respec of these Capt's. I know we will get a lot of "free" stuff with this line split and all, so don't want to sound greedy, but it is extremely expensive in REAL money to move a bunch of Capt's around and then respec them when it isn't our choice/decision to do it. A good 750+ doubloons p/ Capt to retrain and respec.

Edited by AdmiralThunder
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3 minutes ago, AdmiralThunder said:

I agree. IF they won't let us put the Capt's in Reserve (with a new 0 pt Capt on the affected ships that will be moved thus leaving the Reserve Capt still assigned to original ship) they need to allow a free move/respec of these Capt's. I know we will get a lot of "free" stuff with this line split and all, so don't want to sound greedy, but it is extremely expensive in REAL money to move a bunch of Capt's around and then respec them when it isn't our chose/decision to do it. A good 750+ doubloons p/ Capt to retrain and respec.

To be 100% honest, I would trade getting the ships for free (as in, having to re-buy the credit value of the ships) than having to respec/retier my Captains: Retiering is a HUGE pain in the [edited], time consuming, *and* annoying for teams as, for 50% of that retraining period my skills work either 50% or 0% as they should.

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I suddenly feel like a genius for only Training Cleveland captain with the basics needed to get the ship able to fight and did not take him all that far beyond 10 points. So at least I will not have to worry about 19 point commander retraining costs. Had other lines that took priority and just had a feeling I needed to wait on getting Cleveland Commander too high in level.

There is a trick to avoid the retraining costs though if you are not needing a unique commander on a ship that is. Get your new ship, recruit a new 1 point Captain, then use a ton of Elite Captain XP earned from some of your good ships that have 19 point Captains and you can get your new ship captain trained.

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1 minute ago, Admiral_Thrawn_1 said:

I suddenly feel like a genius for only Training Cleveland captain with the basics needed to get the ship able to fight and did not take him all that far beyond 10 points. So at least I will not have to worry about 19 point commander retraining costs. Had other lines that took priority and just had a feeling I needed to wait on getting Cleveland Commander too high in level.

There is a trick to avoid the retraining costs though if you are not needing a unique commander on a ship that is. Get your new ship, recruit a new 1 point Captain, then use a ton of Elite Captain XP earned from some of your good ships that have 19 point Captains and you can get your new ship captain trained.

Well I took advantage of the last clan-wars respec and reset all my USN Cruiser captains other than DM and Balt and Cleveland, in anticipation of the shift.

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As the Scenarios get swamped with stock Dallas's using zero point captains...

Drats..  Double Drats.. Triple Drats...

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We'll have more information available before the update, but your Commander will stay with the ship they were assigned to or as otherwise stated in the patch notes.  Any additional ship you receive will have a Captain with 1 point per tier based on where it is the tech tree.  This does not necessarily mean there will be a 1:1 translation of skills but it will be as close as possible. 

There are not plans to offer a respec at this time. 

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Just now, Radar_X said:

We'll have more information available before the update, but your Commander will stay with the ship they were assigned to.  Any additional ship you receive will have a Captain with 1 point per tier based on where it is the tech tree.  This does not necessarily mean there will be a 1:1 translation of skills but it will be as close as possible. 

There are not plans to offer a respec at this time. 

It’s good that the commanders will stay with the ship but I don’t see why you can’t offer free respecs, it’s incredibly helpful

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Never mind, Radar X cleared that up

Edited by crzyhawk

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9 minutes ago, Radar_X said:

We'll have more information available before the update, but your Commander will stay with the ship they were assigned to.  Any additional ship you receive will have a Captain with 1 point per tier based on where it is the tech tree.  This does not necessarily mean there will be a 1:1 translation of skills but it will be as close as possible. 

There are not plans to offer a respec at this time. 

This is good to hear. Can deal with respec'ing if need be but retraining as well would be very expesnive.

Thank you.

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15 minutes ago, Radar_X said:

We'll have more information available before the update, but your Commander will stay with the ship they were assigned to.  Any additional ship you receive will have a Captain with 1 point per tier based on where it is the tech tree.  This does not necessarily mean there will be a 1:1 translation of skills but it will be as close as possible. 

There are not plans to offer a respec at this time. 

Just to be clear, this is in contrast to what was said by Gneisnau: that Captains will be moved to New ship at the same tier; said expressly:

Quote

The Tier VI cruiser Pensacola (in the same build as Cleveland). All commanders and XP earned with cruiser Cleveland will be transferred to the Tier VI cruiser Pensacola.

Quote

The Tier VII cruiser New Orleans (in the same configuration as Pensacola). All Commanders and XP earned with the cruiser Pensacola will be transferred to the Tier VII cruiser New Orleans.

And ext. for each ship.

 

So which of you is right? Because if you are, then my Cleveland (T6) Captain gets moved to the new T8 position (although he still needs a respec as SI is worthless on the T6 version, while a T8 Cleveland HUGELY benefits from it, likewise a current T9 Baltimore benefits heavily from SI to get that extra radar and repair, but at T8 it will be of less use). If Gneis is right, then my T6 Cleveland Captain is going to be placed on the T6 Pensacola, which is REALLY bad.

Edited by _RC1138

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8 minutes ago, _RC1138 said:

Just to be clear, this is in contrast to what was said by Gneisnau: that Captains will be moved to New ship at the same tier; said expressly:

And ext. for each ship.

 

So which of you is right? Because if you are, then my Cleveland (T6) Captain gets moved to the new T8 position (although he still needs a respec as SI is worthless on the T6 version, while a T8 Cleveland HUGELY benefits from it, likewise a current T9 Baltimore benefits heavily from SI to get that extra radar and repair, but at T8 it will be of less use). If Gneis is right, then my T6 Cleveland Captain is going to be placed on the T6 Pensacola, which is REALLY bad.

How I phrased it is pretty confusing so apologies on that.  The patch notes are accurate, but my larger concern was communicating the transfers may not exactly be 1:1 in terms of skills.

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Just now, Radar_X said:

How I phrased it is pretty confusing so apologies on that.  The patch notes are accurate, but my larger concern was communicating the transfers may not exactly be 1:1 in terms of skills.

It's beyond that: it's a rare black or white situation: either they stay with the ship they are on (requiring no retraining, which is the WORST part of the shift) or they don't, and do require retraining. I don't mind being stuck with no SI on the Cleveland for a few months till the next free respec happens, but I do mind having to play for 125,000 Commander XP worth of matches to get that samesaid commander BACK into a fighting position. It's bad because it's not fair to my own team, as I cannot contribute sufficiently (no IFHE at T8 on a CL? Bad combo) and it eats up tons of time retraining a commander in a way that it kinda has to happen as, at the moment, there are no Premium CL's that at least would make sense to temperoarily assign to and retrain on.

So I can sorta understand not giving a free respec, but free retraining, even if it's *only* for USN Captains, is somewhat required as there is the potential to have millions of XP required to get back to where you are *today*. Put simply: I didn't ask to have the Cleveland moved to T8, and I feel like I'm getting a twist of the knife if I ALSO have to slog through 20-25 matches waiting to get him fully retrained on the new T8 slot.

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2 minutes ago, _RC1138 said:

I didn't ask to have the Cleveland moved to T8, and I feel like I'm getting a twist of the knife if I ALSO have to slog through 20-25 matches waiting to get him fully retrained on the new T8 slot.

Exactly.  Since this change is being forced on us (not saying it is a bad change at all, but we don't have a choice), we should at least not have to be penalized for it.  Just wipe the effected commanders skill points and assignments, and let players choose where to put them.  Easy peasy.  Making people spend credits/doubloons/commander XP/grind time to get BACk to where they were before seems outside the premise of this and inconsistent with previous WG comments.  This one topic seems to be the only place that you guys are going cheap.

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I have them all from the Omaha up to Baltimore, I really need to look at my captains, I have advanced my Captains as I've gone up in Tier, so my Baltimore Capt. I'm pretty sure is my highest USN Point capt, or even with maybe my NO capt.   So he will move down to the t8 Baltimore and i'll get a Buffalo and a new Capt at 9 points?  As my Baltimore capt I think is either 14 or 15 that's not so good.  No 19pt captains to worry about..

Either that or I'm totally confused on how this is working.  :) which is a strong possibility.  Not to mention I don't have a "TON" of Dubloons, credits nor "elite captain XP"  to redo the situation.

And on top of that my T6 Cleveland capt is not really high point so moving him to T8 should be interesting.

But.. in the end it's a game, not something to get seriously concerned over..

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Read this from the Public Test Forum: 

It states that your fully spec'd Cleveland Capt and ship XP get left behind on the Pensacola and you get a stock hull Cleveland with no ship XP and an 8 pt Capt.

"Your favorites Pensacola, New Orleans and Baltimore will stay in the tech tree of heavy cruisers but will be shifted one tier lower with ship parameters re-adjusted accordingly. Cleveland is moving to Trier VIII in the alternative split of the U.S. light cruisers. Des Moines stays at Tier X with a new ship—Buffalo—settling in at Tier IX. Ship replacement rules are designed to ensure maximum advantage to players with the underlying principle being "you don't lose anything".

..."Players that already have the Tier VI cruiser Cleveland get:

  • The Tier VI cruiser Pensacola (in the same build as Cleveland). All commanders and XP earned with cruiser Cleveland will be transferred to the Tier VI cruiser Pensacola.
  • Also, players get the Tier VIII cruiser Cleveland in stock build and a Commander with 8 skill points for the ship".

So, how do you not "lose anything" when you lose your fully spec'd ship, its XP, and its fully spec'd Capt and in return get a stock hull ship, 0 XP and an 8 pt Capt? We ground through the ship already, why do we need to ground through it again. Upgrades may have to be re-purchased. Modules may have to be repurchased (they do say all mounted items will be placed in inventory, so upgrades, etc, may be able to be used on other ships), but nothing compensates you for the lost Captain skill points. You have to grind your way through the game again to get them  back up to 19 skill points. Similar things occur to other ships you have that are moving.

This is not losing anything? Yes, you certainly do lose something.

Why not leave our ships the way they are when they move, letting us make adjustments as we may need? Give the stock, stripped hulls and castrated captains to the new ships. Let us work them up into the ships and captains we develop them into. 

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Just stockpile elite XP for retraining your captains. Or keep some Restless Fire camos and Confederate flags in reserve.

Problem solved.

Captains getting moved around is hardly a big deal on our end as technically the account and everything within belongs to WG. Much as you might hate it, they're not obliged to give anything to ease the respec.

Don't see the use of being self-entitled. Not persuasive to WG.

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https://worldofwarships.com/en/news/common/update-515/

IJN DD split rules. 

Quote
  • If a player researched Fubuki VIII before the update went live, then Kagero VIII, Fubuki VI, and the hull (B) for Akatsuki VII become researched; the undistributed ship XP available on Fubuki VIII is transferred to Kagero VIII.
  • If a player purchased Fubuki VIII before the update went live, then all upgrades, signals, flags, and consumables mounted on her are demounted and stored in the depot; Fubuki VIII plus all modules mounted on her are removed from the player's account; Fubuki VI together with a ship slot are added to the player's account; Kagero VIII is added to the player's account.

The XP stayed with the old ship last time, too. 

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13 minutes ago, Willy55_1955 said:

..."Players that already have the Tier VI cruiser Cleveland get:

  • The Tier VI cruiser Pensacola (in the same build as Cleveland). All commanders and XP earned with cruiser Cleveland will be transferred to the Tier VI cruiser Pensacola.
  • Also, players get the Tier VIII cruiser Cleveland in stock build and a Commander with 8 skill points for the ship".

This seems a bit odd.  Wouldn't it make better sense to get the tier VI CL instead of the tier VI CA Pensacola?  A CL for a CL instead of a CA for a CL?

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8 minutes ago, Reymu said:

Just stockpile elite XP for retraining your captains. Or keep some Restless Fire camos and Confederate flags in reserve.

Problem solved.

Captains getting moved around is hardly a big deal on our end as technically the account and everything within belongs to WG. Much as you might hate it, they're not obliged to give anything to ease the respec.

Don't see the use of being self-entitled. Not persuasive to WG.

Yes, you're right...everyone should just roll over and take whatever WG gives them....and say...."Thank you sir, may I have another..." :Smile_teethhappy:

Just glad I could give a crap about the US line, because it certainly seems like they are simply going to piss people off, rather than actually providing something "fun and engaging".....

 

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1 hour ago, Old_Baldy_One said:

Exactly.  Since this change is being forced on us (not saying it is a bad change at all, but we don't have a choice), we should at least not have to be penalized for it.  Just wipe the effected commanders skill points and assignments, and let players choose where to put them.  Easy peasy.  Making people spend credits/doubloons/commander XP/grind time to get BACk to where they were before seems outside the premise of this and inconsistent with previous WG comments.  This one topic seems to be the only place that you guys are going cheap.

 

Hate to say it, but this has happened in every other split/rearrangement, and there's nothing new here. It didn't work when the IJN DDs were shuffled and split ( and they didn't even get a finished split line ), so I doubt it will be any different here. Just suck it up and pay the dabloons, or enjoy the new ships your commanders have been transferred to.

 

After all, WG is not refunding dabloons for permanent camos but credits (which can't then be used to repurchase a permanent camo). The cost of repairing WG's actions are always on the player.

Edited by Jakob_Knight
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1 hour ago, Radar_X said:

We'll have more information available before the update, but your Commander will stay with the ship they were assigned to or as otherwise stated in the patch notes.  Any additional ship you receive will have a Captain with 1 point per tier based on where it is the tech tree.  This does not necessarily mean there will be a 1:1 translation of skills but it will be as close as possible. 

There are not plans to offer a respec at this time. 

That is not correct. You lose your captain and when the ship moves you get a stripped, stock hull and n 8 point capt. Read the 0.7.5 notes on the Public Test Forum under "Replacement Rules".

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17 minutes ago, zubalkabir said:

This seems a bit odd.  Wouldn't it make better sense to get the tier VI CL instead of the tier VI CA Pensacola?  A CL for a CL instead of a CA for a CL?

The *replacement* rules make sense, as the T6 Cleveland is not being replaced with the T6 Dallas, rather, it is being replaced with the T6 Pensacola; thus, that's the ship you get. A *new* T6 on a *separate* tree is being added, the Dallas, at T6. It's the movement of Captains that is the nightmare and definitely qualifies as 'taking something away' given how much grinding is needed to retrain the same T6 Cleveland Captain, placed on the Pensacola at patch, and then needing to be manually moved (and thus retrained) on the new T8 Cleveland. And, as I said in the Op, this problem is created because of the HUGE fundamental difference between the Cleveland and the Pensacola (really any 152mm gunned vs 203mm gunned Cruiser) that makes their Captain inherently incomparable, even when forgetting the relative tankiness of a Cleveland and the brittleness of a Pensacola. As such, there would NEVER be a situation where you wanted to keep the T6 Cleveland's Captain on the Pensacola and as such, it should be *known* to WGing that players will NEED to move their captain to the T8 and thus, require excessive retraining.

They could mitigate this one of two ways, either are acceptable (both would be great):

1) Offer Free Respecs: then, even if you shinny 19 Point Cleveland Commander is moved to the new T6 Pensacola, you can at least have the option to optimize him around the new ship's HUGELY different playstyle, and not leave you, and your team (I might add, cause that needs to be said *loud and damn clear*, that NOT doing this hurts other players as much as the person stuck with it as you have a teammate with an unoptimized Captain to their playstyle) with a handicapped player.

2) Offer Free Retraining: Then, if I so choose, I can move my new Pensacola Captain back to the T8 Cleveland so that I can enjoy a Captain that is at least MOSTLY optimized for the expected playstyle and likewise, allow me to shift my other Captains around (Baltmore's to Buffalo's, New Orleans to Baltimore's, ect) so that, even stuck with potentially not as wanted skills, they are at least on ships/tiers they made sense on: SI makes a lot of sense on a Balt at T9, or a Buffalo at T9, but NOT a Balt at T8.

Edited by _RC1138

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1 minute ago, zubalkabir said:

This seems a bit odd. 

You're getting a Tier VI main-line ship in exchange for the Tier VI main-line ship that is being promoted to Tier VIII in the alternative line.

I note with interest that the 0.7.5 tech tree shows Tier VIII Cleveland as representing a divergent research path from Tier VII New Orleans. That will no doubt end when 0.7.6 drops.

 

20 minutes ago, Willy55_1955 said:

So, how do you not "lose anything" when you lose your fully spec'd ship, its XP, and its fully spec'd Capt and in return get a stock hull ship, 0 XP and an 8 pt Capt?

Because the Pensacola which appears in her place will be fully stocked with all the XP that the Cleveland held:

21 minutes ago, Willy55_1955 said:

"Players that already have the Tier VI cruiser Cleveland get:

  • The Tier VI cruiser Pensacola (in the same build as Cleveland).

which means that if you finished the grind you can research New Orleans at once.

And your new stock cruiser is Tier EIGHT rather than Tier Six.

 

I'm looking forward to having a second Tier VIII cruiser to keep my Edinburgh company without the need to grind out the extra 200K XP for her. 10K represents a good day's play for me, and many times it's closer to 5K. This split is going to save me about a month of grinding, and I'm already making plans for what I'm going to do with the 8-point captain they'll give me. From my perspective, this is generosity up to the eyeballs.

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