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Beneej_Spoor

Catharsis: Admiral Spoor "Why are you playing? [Because I don't want you to anymore]" -NoZoupForYou

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In response to feedback from Catharsis III, I will tidy things up. In fact this video to make things easier on myself will feature two videos:

We'll start here, and we won't have the minute by minute breakdown in an effort to tidy things up and sound less abrasive. Shout outs to Notser, Gneisenau013, Captain_Dorja, and anyone else I've overlooked who provided more direct feedback. Especially to everyone who found Catharsis III wordy, nitpicky and boring, hopefully this is better:

So, we'll ignore the Click-Bait Nature that seems to be a staple of Zoup's of the title and focus on the question itself and a handful of statements he makes.

I've pointed out previously "Why are you still playing", much less anyone playing any game they're in comes down to more than just the singular factor of whether or not a game is good. I've made comparisons to Star Trek: Online, Madden 16 through 18, and War Thunder. To answer his question, we play at least some of those games because no alternatives exist. I find his question cathartic because he's ranting about people who rant, essentially.

Ironically, despite how intensely I may disagree with him, or anyone; it almost  his job as a community contributor to find out what's wrong with the game and point it out and advocate on our behalf or his own to have it corrected. If anything, he'd have every single reason and every right to be absolutely furious along with his colleagues depending on the change; even if I happen to disagree with what he things needs changing (namely according to him the players in this video).

Now he states he's not talking to veterans, but if you listen to his video, who could be possibly be speaking to that would be among his audience for this video? Listening carefully and consider his tone specifically towards Battleships in other installments, and Hindenburg, which I will feature later; it's more of the same "Quit complaining [because you're ruining my experience, which I assume means you're ruining everyone else's]" We've gotten a new patch as of late to try to improve upon the community standards in terms of reports, team damage and toxic behavior, though I suppose he had to show contempt for the large part of either a Newbie or Veteran audience to this game who have plenty of legitimate gripes.

Example, Phil Helmuth in Texas Hold'em has the record for most championship wins in the World Series of Poker, but if you listen to him blow up, you'd have no idea he's any good. To quote him "For you this is a game, for me this is my life". Some folks are that passionate and just because they love the game or see the good in it, or are even champions, doesn't mean they don't have a lot to get furious about.

If I include myself, I'll even say I don't want the illegitimate gripes to go away, that's a freedom we have that say we don't in Steel Ocean. At least a feedback mechanism exists in ANY capacity here, which is another reason why we'll play and deal with gross generalizations and ironically him saying "I'm tired of hearing people complain all Battleships suck, all Destroyers suck". That was perhaps the critical irony in his rant on people ranting about the game; considering he's chief among them to think that Battleships "Are in a good place right now" or even the notion that battleships, much less any class for that matter, have a place to be.

There are plenty of reasons to still play. Just not all of them are any good.


 

 

Here's the meat and potatoes of what I'd like to get into as a follow up especially in context of his previous videos. Considering he's targeted this ship for his example, but I will concede this easily applies to Zao or Conqueror.

He notes how this ship seems to reinforce selfish play and he jumped in specifically to save a star. Now, I've noted in my elaborate mess of an essay on "Fix XP", that it's convenient for him to choose to push this narrative now after he got the smoke change he wanted in 6.11, he believes Battleships are in a good place right now, but because a handful of folks dislike this ranged meta (which has existed since at least season 6 with the Belfast, and season 7 with the Cleveland), he feels this is grossly selfish and unsportsmanlike

Now, I'll join him and say that I would rather not play this way, but I had to change and play like this because it's what he asked for in previous patches, to make Battleships more and more irrelevant. I suppose as collateral damage, Carriers and Destroyers have been shafted too, because how can you hope to close the distance with these ships who play to their insane range. I emphasize again, I do not want to play like this, but I won't complain about it, since that's how the game's designed and if I'm winning, I'm happy. Cruisers, as I noted in my statistic video for NA and EU all time, dominate even more than they used to, but I wouldn't dare say any of these cruisers (with one obvious exception) are overpowered. It would be insane for me to call the whole class unsportsmanlike or overpowered, but the implications exist.

I can provide specifics, but I've carried on long enough. He suggests a lot of things that would actively hurt people who wish to play this game for fun even or even at least a mildly competitive level and he targets the ships, not the issues with Ranked laddering.

Here's only one quote this time:

4:39 “I don’t have the time, I don’t have the patience . . .”

So mysteriously when you or the other CCs cannot perform as well or it gets tougher for them (by virtue of the design choices [the CCs] advocated for I might add) its Wargaming’s fault and they have to get rid of us [by introducing more obstacles like moving irrevocable from 10 to 15]. When you, or Noster, and Flamu do perform well, but “decent” players are struggling and complaining, they just have to play better, [change the way you play, just get good], and it’s our fault.

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You place too many big and unnecessary words in your writing. It's a common mistake that writers make to try to sound smart.

I have to read each one of the paragraphs twice and I'm still not sure I understand your point.

Type like you are speaking to someone face to face. Would you really say things like, " I find his question cathartic because he's ranting about people who rant, essentially." when speaking to a group of people?

 

https://youtu.be/ctf260qnDeU

 

Edited by Rabbitt81
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I watched the first video and read the first part of your post, and I really feel like you are misinterpreting what he says so you can complain. Zoup was not talking about people with legitimate gripes, he was talking to people that rage on the forums and in chat all the time. The kind of people who tell a tier 5 DD to uninstall because they forgot or ran out of camo. The kind of people who call others c***s because they didn't do exactly what the other player wanted.

His point was that if you are so angry at the game all the time, so much so that you negatively impact the other players who just want to have fun, then something needs to change.

That's not even getting into the rest of your slightly incoherent rambling. How is it ironic for him to say he's sick of hearing people say all battleships suck if he thinks battleships are in a good place right now? That not ironic, that's completely expected.

Also, what does, "The notion that battleships, much less any class for that matter, have a place to be," even mean? I think you may have left out a few words there.

Finally, if you want to complain about clickbait titles, don't put your own words in Zoup's quote so more people will click to see of that's true.  

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Is putting up a complaint thread about current Community Contributors part of the audition process to become a new one? 

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3 minutes ago, Baskerville77 said:

I watched the first video and read the first part of your post, and I really feel like you are misinterpreting what he says so you can complain. Zoup was not talking about people with legitimate gripes, he was talking to people that rage on the forums and in chat all the time. The kind of people who tell a tier 5 DD to uninstall because they forgot or ran out of camo. The kind of people who call others c***s because they didn't do exactly what the other player wanted.

His point was that if you are so angry at the game all the time, so much so that you negatively impact the other players who just want to have fun, then something needs to change.

That's not even getting into the rest of your slightly incoherent rambling. How is it ironic for him to say he's sick of hearing people say all battleships suck if he thinks battleships are in a good place right now? That not ironic, that's completely expected.

Also, what does, "The notion that battleships, much less any class for that matter, have a place to be," even mean? I think you may have left out a few words there.

Finally, if you want to complain about clickbait titles, don't put your own words in Zoup's quote so more people will click to see of that's true.  

I suppose I should have been more detailed post, but let me elaborate at least in particular for his first point overall in the video and letting things go. I wanted to argue you can be good, or even unicum and have plenty to complain about. I mean if your point is "people who have absolutely zero positive to say about the game and are angry absolutely all the time", then I want him to point out who, because they're either never going to see his claims, or he's referring to people who are invariable veterans. So he's invented this group of people to argue against, salty new players who aren't veterans because veterans enjoy the game in some small way.

I also have pointed out before, he complains, or rather "Suggests Constructively" that Battleships were in a bad place, and were destroying the game in 2017, now though after numerous changes, they're in a good place right now. I mean surely you know he's said and claimed these things. So it's ironic in his first video he says "He's tired of hearing people say Battleships suck, and destroyers suck" etc. when he does the same thing. Or maybe you mean literally, it's not ironic, it's what he's supposed to do, it's expected; therefore, not ironic at all.

Also the clickbait thing, I do for effect, but he has called his own titles that:

I'm obviously being insulting when I call him the "WatchMojo" of Warships, that's a value judgement, but I can clarify more if needed.

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5 minutes ago, Umikami said:

Is putting up a complaint thread about current Community Contributors part of the audition process to become a new one? 

I wish, but not, that's the fast track to ensure you never become one. Though I suppose I should have been far more specific, so I have to find the middle ground between point by point analysis, and vague rambling.

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1 minute ago, Beneej_Spoor said:

I wish, but not, that's the fast track to ensure you never become one. Though I suppose I should have been far more specific, so I have to find the middle ground between point by point analysis, and vague rambling.

Really ... because my opinion is "Either play or don't." That is the choice it all really boils down to; the rest is just window dressing. My Opinion.

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8 minutes ago, Umikami said:

Really ... because my opinion is "Either play or don't." That is the choice it all really boils down to; the rest is just window dressing. My Opinion.

Oh I agree, it's when one's opinion turns into projection it becomes a problem. He imagines some substantial minority who are new, or have little experience in the game; have zero positive things to say. I am not saying I haven't been toxic, but this toxicity he's aiming at, I'm partially arguing he feeds that fire along with others when they gang up on classes of ship, much less classes of player (toxic or not).

Someone noted before my points are rambly and illegitimate. That's fine, because I imagine even if anyone else said myself or their points were illegitimate, I don't then suddenly think they should stop. Kinda where I pulled my Phil Hellmuth example. You can be the champion of your field and still be perhaps more toxic than an inexperienced player. I'm no champion, but I'm also not inexperienced (be it playing games or designing bad games for my masters degree).

Edited by Beneej_Spoor

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12 minutes ago, Beneej_Spoor said:

I suppose I should have been more detailed post, but let me elaborate at least in particular for his first point overall in the video and letting things go. I wanted to argue you can be good, or even unicum and have plenty to complain about. I mean if your point is "people who have absolutely zero positive to say about the game and are angry absolutely all the time", then I want him to point out who, because they're either never going to see his claims, or he's referring to people who are invariable veterans. So he's invented this group of people to argue against, salty new players who aren't veterans because veterans enjoy the game in some small way.

I also have pointed out before, he complains, or rather "Suggests Constructively" that Battleships were in a bad place, and were destroying the game in 2017, now though after numerous changes, they're in a good place right now. I mean surely you know he's said and claimed these things. So it's ironic in his first video he says "He's tired of hearing people say Battleships suck, and destroyers suck" etc. when he does the same thing. Or maybe you mean literally, it's not ironic, it's what he's supposed to do, it's expected; therefore, not ironic at all.

Also the clickbait thing, I do for effect, but he has called his own titles that

 

There are plenty of people that fit his description. The two examples I gave in my first post? They happend over the course of one day. You cannot spend any meaningful length of time in this (or any other online game) and not come across people like the ones he describes.

Heck, just today there was a guy in the forum spamming the same thread over and over about how he has no idea how the game works and thus it sucks.

In addition, when he complained about BBs being in a bad spot, he had reasons beyond "I hate all BBs." He had gripes, they were fixed, and he is happy. He was talking about people who say DDs are garbage because they don't have homing torps, or that BBs are garbage because fire hurts them.

He was aiming at people who never have a good thing to say about the game or thier teammates, and ruin the experience for everyone.

In addition, Zoup is using clickbait titles for effect, just like you. I don't like clickbait titles when he does them any more than you.  The difference is that he hasn't attacked anyone for it while doing the same thing himself.

Finally, I don't care how good you are at something. If you are Phil Hellmuth or a poker noob, you still don't have a right to be toxic because you are good at a game. Even less so in a team based game like Warships, than in a solitary game like poker.

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Does the OP actually get Zoups point in the video?  Zoup is tired of them I'm especially tired of toxic players and I  think everybody else is tired of the Toxic players.  The ones that are constantly complaining about something.  They complain just to complain or are toxic just to be toxic.  Those are the players he is talking about.  The second video has absolutely nothing to do with the first video.  Period.  Frankly Zoup has it dead on.  

Edited by SuperSpud1
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39 minutes ago, Beneej_Spoor said:

Oh I agree, it's when one's opinion turns into projection it becomes a problem. He imagines some substantial minority who are new, or have little experience in the game; have zero positive things to say. I am not saying I haven't been toxic, but this toxicity he's aiming at, I'm partially arguing he feeds that fire along with others when they gang up on classes of ship, much less classes of player (toxic or not).

Someone noted before my points are rambly and illegitimate. That's fine, because I imagine even if anyone else said myself or their points were illegitimate, I don't then suddenly think they should stop. Kinda where I pulled my Phil Hellmuth example. You can be the champion of your field and still be perhaps more toxic than an inexperienced player. I'm no champion, but I'm also not inexperienced (be it playing games or designing bad games for my masters degree).

Dissension is the prime motivator of change' every time two people, anywhere at anytime, butted heads over any issue, there was a golden opportunity for change, and a parallel opportunity to make something better or worse; oft times depending solely on point of view. To provide a somewhat ludicrous example, murder is just fine, if you practice cannibalism. Civilization is the means of mitigating the strong emotions which are present during conflicting viewpoints; we no longer physically kill each other (as often?) over disagreements, though professional and social death is just as common, and possibly just as cruel. Civilization also teaches us that we should convince others rather than force them into our viewpoints; thus we learn to both project our views out to the public and do so as society deems fit. If no one ever argued, we would still be happily living in caves and bashing animals with antelope thigh bones to get our daily meat.

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8 minutes ago, Umikami said:

Dissension is the prime motivator of change' every time two people, anywhere at anytime, butted heads over any issue, there was a golden opportunity for change, and a parallel opportunity to make something better or worse; oft times depending solely on point of view. To provide a somewhat ludicrous example, murder is just fine, if you practice cannibalism. Civilization is the means of mitigating the strong emotions which are present during conflicting viewpoints; we no longer physically kill each other (as often?) over disagreements, though professional and social death is just as common, and possibly just as cruel. Civilization also teaches us that we should convince others rather than force them into our viewpoints; thus we learn to both project our views out to the public and do so as society deems fit. If no one ever argued, we would still be happily living in caves and bashing animals with antelope thigh bones to get our daily meat.

 

3 minutes ago, Admiral_Thrawn_1 said:

C66E15D3-DD9D-433A-A929-9BC26237EF22.jpeg.2915b21ffbcf83ba13bad40dca60f4fa.jpeg

I actually like these both and fair enough. I should stick to my more technical (albeit salty) analyses from now on. Thank you though for posting.

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21 minutes ago, Beneej_Spoor said:

I actually like these both and fair enough. I should stick to my more technical (albeit salty) analyses from now on. Thank you though for posting.

Always enjoy a good conversation; thank you, too.

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18 minutes ago, jason199506 said:

can i get a TLDR?

Yeah, I suck at that, but here's my try

He asks everybody, well, not everybody, just toxic people who wouldn't listen to him anyway "Why are you playing?". My answer "Name me a better game? I hate this game sometimes but I'm stuck, what more do you want from me?"

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10 hours ago, Beneej_Spoor said:

Yeah, I suck at that, but here's my try

He asks everybody, well, not everybody, just toxic people who wouldn't listen to him anyway "Why are you playing?". My answer "Name me a better game? I hate this game sometimes but I'm stuck, what more do you want from me?"

NO. You are completely misunderstanding and/or misrepresenting what Zoup has said; and if what's already been said by others hasn't set you straight already, I'm not sure what else I can say to explain where you're wrong.

 

11 hours ago, SuperSpud1 said:

Does the OP actually get Zoups point in the video?

No, I don't think they do. 

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17 hours ago, francesabyss said:

Wg took all my cash then my soul.

I play because i have nothing left to give but my sanity.

You made me Laugh for two min ..You know small minds our easily amused ...Thanks Bro

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