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Plaatduutsch

Epic Buff to Low Tier CVs?

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The Cleveland goes to T8 when the USN CLs come live

The Cleveland has been a solid fleet defender at mid tier. 

She always brings confidence for her surrounding ships when playing against CVs.

The new T6 Dallas has very weak AA compared to Clev

Cleveland  91 dps@5km (7.2km max)

Dallas         46 dps@5km (7.2km max)

T6 Pensacola   58 dps @4.2km (6km max)

:Smile_sceptic:

What we see is a 50% decrease on AA capability of T6 USN cuisers

And nothing can balance the CV at T6

Although CV's only enemy has always been the enemy CV, other surface ships does deserve a chance to defend themselves. 

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If you looked over the entire AA suite for both ships, you'd realize that the Dallas has enough AA DPS to stop a T6 CV.

No, you don't need T8-level AA to stop a T6 CV. That's just ludicrous.

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Cleveland had always been the first slap in the face across a new CV player.  There simply isn't any good AA Cruisers below Tier VIII that are in decent numbers.

 

Tier VI Dallas and Tier VI Pensacola don't have the core of powerful 127mm DP turrets that Cleveland has.  They may have good short & medium range AA but that doesn't help other ships of your team.  It's the long range AA that reaches out and swats planes.

Tier VI Nurnberg has Hull-C for an AA option, giving up some torps, but almost nobody does that.  Same thing for the even much, much rarer Makarov.

Hell, even Tier VII is very dicey.

Atlanta has great AA but as a Premium, she's not as common as Cleveland.  Cleveland was a tech tree ship and anybody could get her, which did help towards her AA reputation because you were very likely to run into her.

Upcoming USN CLs Boise & Helena have the same deal in AA philosophy as Pensacola, Indianapolis, Dallas... Should be good short, medium range AA but forgettable long range AA.

The other Non-USN Cruisers at Tier VII have mediocre to garbage AA.  The German Cruiser Line doesn't start having good AA until Tier VIII.

 

Really, when Cleveland leaves to go to Tier VIII, the only real, bonafide AA Cruiser below Tier VIII is Atlanta.  Cleveland will be dealing with Tier VIII-X games.

Cleveland leaving to go to Tier VIII is the single greatest buff for Tier V-VII CVs that will happen since... I don't know.

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13 minutes ago, CarefreeTongue said:

If you looked over the entire AA suite for both ships, you'd realize that the Dallas has enough AA DPS to stop a T6 CV.

No, you don't need T8-level AA to stop a T6 CV. That's just ludicrous.

Yes, Clev has very good AA, or should I say: it is the only ship on tier 6 that runs DFAA normally? It being the only one balanced itself. The sad thing is that after the change, USN cruisers are still the only DFAA while the effectiveness was cut by 50%. I don't mind the nerf to AA as long as AA is common for all T6 CA/CLs

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4 minutes ago, Plaatduutsch said:

Yes, Clev has very good AA, or should I say: it is the only ship on tier 6 that runs DFAA normally? It being the only one balanced itself. The sad thing is that after the change, USN cruisers are still the only DFAA while the effectiveness was cut by 50%. I don't mind the nerf to AA as long as AA is common for all T6 CA/CLs

Also has DFAA at T6: Any cruiser not called Leander or Perth.

Why do people complain about not having enough AA when AA is by far the most increasable stat in the game?

Edited by CarefreeTongue
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22 minutes ago, CarefreeTongue said:

If you looked over the entire AA suite for both ships, you'd realize that the Dallas has enough AA DPS to stop a T6 CV.

No, you don't need T8-level AA to stop a T6 CV. That's just ludicrous.

Nope, Dallas is a shadow of Cleveland in terms of AA.

For reference, Cleveland's Wiki Page.

In short, Dallas pretty much matches Cleveland's short and medium range AA.  Where things go bad for Dallas is long range AA.

Dallas

127mm 2x2, 5km range, 30 DPS

Cleveland

127mm 6x2, 5km range, 90.6 DPS

 

Pop in Defensive Fire to triple that DPS

Dallas' long range AA with those figures matches Cleveland WITHOUT Defensive Fire to 90 DPS.

Cleveland WITH Defensive Fire?  Her long range DPS goes to 270 DPS.

That is why planes simply fall from the sky when Cleveland is around and pops DF.  No other Cruiser below Tier VIII, except for Atlanta, matches that plane killing power.

 

Cleveland at Tier VI with mighty AA is a good thing... Because you do recall, as a Tier VI ship, she saw a lot of Tier VII-VIII, which possibly could include some ultra powerful CVs from those tiers.

Edited by HazeGrayUnderway

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6 minutes ago, CarefreeTongue said:

Also has DFAA at T6: Any cruiser not called Leander or Perth.

Why do people complain about not having enough AA when AA is by far the most increasable stat in the game?

Only the USN CA/CLs are worth running AA though.

Hydro are better than AA on germans

French/IJN/Soviet cruisers can barely defend themselves, let alone their teammates. 

You missed one more ship: Huanghe at t6: the AA was taken away by WG in ST. 

Edited by Plaatduutsch

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Don't worry; I'm sure with the upcoming changes carriers will be screwed over so badly (yet again,) that there won't be anything to worry about with Cleveland's departure from T6.

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1 minute ago, Estimated_Prophet said:

Don't worry; I'm sure with the upcoming changes carriers will be screwed over so badly (yet again,) that there won't be anything to worry about with Cleveland's departure from T6.

That would be the best

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I hope the carrier rework adds some skill to AA. Now it is basically no AA or doomsday.

It is easy, but boring. I’d rather handle the guns myself some how.

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The best AA has always been the interceptor fighter.

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8 hours ago, CarefreeTongue said:

If you looked over the entire AA suite for both ships, you'd realize that the Dallas has enough AA DPS to stop a T6 CV.

No, you don't need T8-level AA to stop a T6 CV. That's just ludicrous.

This.

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8 hours ago, CarefreeTongue said:

If you looked over the entire AA suite for both ships, you'd realize that the Dallas has enough AA DPS to stop a T6 CV.

No, you don't need T8-level AA to stop a T6 CV. That's just ludicrous.

Not if you are sadistic and want to make the enemy CV cry at losing his whole attack wave in the blink of an eye.  lol

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As for the Dallas: yes, she has a lower AA damage at any range then the Cleveland but is okish.

But for the Helena: her max range damage is 40 points less but she got 28 points more at medium range than the Cleveland. While she cannot protect other ships as well as the Cleveland, she can defend herself good enough. She gets 4x2 40mm Bofors and 4x4 40 mm Bofors.

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Tier VIII does not stop my Ryujo unless both the East and West or the North and South  both have NCs, Atlantas, and eventually Clevelands. Then all I can do is CV Snipe. The good CVs knows what their weaknesses are.

Edited by Vangm94

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Well, we'll all have to drive MFCAA Huanghe's now won't we!

 

AA is 'supposed' to be a cluster up mechanic apparently, but clustering up to contribute only 45 DPS is rather underwhelming.

Dallas gets 67.8 DPS from her Bofors 40mm's which isn't at all bad, and is the same as Cleveland, she'll still be a good self-defense boat, especially with DFAA. She's probably less worth building for AA though, and without AFT/AAMod she's going to work out much less potent.

 

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8 hours ago, Ensign_Cthulhu said:

The best AA has always been the interceptor fighter.

I'm kinda fond of the triple-A on my Cleveland.  

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On 5/15/2018 at 10:45 AM, Psicopro said:

Not if you are sadistic and want to make the enemy CV cry at losing his whole attack wave in the blink of an eye.  lol

Playing CV has always been the most sadistic

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On 5/15/2018 at 7:54 AM, Erebthoron said:

As for the Dallas: yes, she has a lower AA damage at any range then the Cleveland but is okish.

But for the Helena: her max range damage is 40 points less but she got 28 points more at medium range than the Cleveland. While she cannot protect other ships as well as the Cleveland, she can defend herself good enough. She gets 4x2 40mm Bofors and 4x4 40 mm Bofors.

Personal air defense in a Cruiser is rarely ever a thing because CVs go for Battleships and Destroyers.  That is why Long Range AA >>>> Any other AA.  If a CV goes for a Cruiser, they are either stupid or there is nothing else for them to attack since the BBs & DDs are dead.

On 5/15/2018 at 7:41 AM, Anumati said:

This.

You need that AA because as everyone knows, Tier VI sees a lot of Tier VIII.  And what do we have at Tier VIII? 

Ever-reliable Shokaku.

Enterprise with her Double TB and HE/AP Dive Bomber options.

Lexington with AP Bombs deleting German BBs of your team.

 

Let's not forget Tier VII.

Saipan and her fast Tier IX bombers

Kaga and her strike swarm of the gods.

 

It's not Independence you should be worried about with your Tier VI ships.  It's the Tier VII-VIII CVs that can do bad things to your team.

On 5/15/2018 at 8:39 AM, mofton said:

Well, we'll all have to drive MFCAA Huanghe's now won't we!

 

AA is 'supposed' to be a cluster up mechanic apparently, but clustering up to contribute only 45 DPS is rather underwhelming.

Dallas gets 67.8 DPS from her Bofors 40mm's which isn't at all bad, and is the same as Cleveland, she'll still be a good self-defense boat, especially with DFAA. She's probably less worth building for AA though, and without AFT/AAMod she's going to work out much less potent.

 

If Dallas is less worthy to spec for AA compared to VI Cleveland, then that means even worse AA performance, worse typical AA ranges by Dallas, and hence, it's all an "epic buff to low tier CVs" as the thread is meant.

Edited by HazeGrayUnderway

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1 hour ago, HazeGrayUnderway said:

Personal air defense in a Cruiser is rarely ever a thing because CVs go for Battleships and Destroyers.  That is why Long Range AA >>>> Any other AA.  If a CV goes for a Cruiser, they are either stupid or there is nothing else for them to attack since the BBs & DDs are dead.

Tell this all those CV that either fly direct over a cruiser or even attack him because they think he has a lower hp pool then a BB.

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10 hours ago, GabeTheDespot said:

Then the BBs with long range AA can spec for it, AA SPEC KONGO FOR THE WIN! :Smile_trollface:

Konig works better

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12 hours ago, Erebthoron said:

Tell this all those CV that either fly direct over a cruiser or even attack him because they think he has a lower hp pool then a BB.

Those are the idiots with nothing to worry about.  You're smaller and more agile than a Battleship, so it's no problem at all.  It's your teams' BBs and DDs are the ones that really need that Air Defense you bring, and air defense dedicated for practically short range only is no good.  The panic effect of Defensive Fire helps, but you also need to inflict LOSSES against aircraft so that even fewer planes can drop ordnance.  Losses on aircraft mean the earlier the opposing CV is to running out of planes.  Good, long range AA does that.

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11 hours ago, Plaatduutsch said:

Konig works better

I wouldn’t be so sure. But I think you are right. 

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Fully AA Spec's Captain and AA mods on Texas along with the flag will give you God like AA for T5 USN Battle Wagon.  I know I do it.  And I like to challenge a CV to actually come and get me... :Smile_teethhappy:

Edited by gcangel82

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