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Lensar

T10 Ranked: Shima vs Yueyang is about as broken as it can get

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3 minutes ago, Lensar said:

Love to see some replays. Maybe I'm doing something wrong. 20 seconds is a long time to dodge shells and live.

And that's not to say that I'm outright killed every time it happens. A lot of the time I make it away with 10% health. But that's as good as dead for the most part, as I can't risk being spotted as a shell or two will finish me off.

Russian radar scares me the least, 20-25 sec radar is a breeze for me, its the des radar i worry about.

Maybe we could div up sometime.

Edited by Final8ty

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Although radar is annoying, and even potentially game breaking, it is what keeps certain CAs relevant with the lack of CVs to spot. Maybe radar could be a long duration, short cool down, LoS ability that shows the ship icon on the minimap, and shows a blurred area where the radared ship is if it is farther out, but without getting a hard position on it unless it is within, say, [(detection range)*1.5]. Not completely eliminating stealth but allowing DD hunting to occur. The range at which a position and bearing on a ship (blurred globular shape only seen by you) would be acquired could be something like {[(radar range)*3]*[(detection range)/10)}. Just a suggestion.

Separately, I will take the advice here, and maybe start playing DDs again, I stopped because I was really trash.

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This is why you don't contest caps until you know where the enemy radar ships are located.

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18 minutes ago, Ace_04 said:

This is why you don't contest caps until you know where the enemy radar ships are located.

Finally. 

Radar yy is very dangerous. If you drive a non-gunboat and you see one in que then you must adjust play style and try to stay near allies. 

Havent seen an Ijn pitty party / Radar whine thread combo in a while. Some good points made here but all of them are easily worked around. Prioritize targets, work in groups, use minimap to avoid spotted radar boats. YY low concealment is a special kind of deadly but it’s nothing superior firepower can’t resolve. Nothing ruined or broken except some  old tricks.

If you have a support cruiser with radar and you work together to hunt the yy, say after he launches torps and gives away his position, charge in that direction. RDF can be useful in tracking him until visual. He will be focused on the larger ship and not even know you are there. Get within 5.5km and Bait him into shooting or blow his concealment. Then launch your 15 torp wall of skill while cruiser removes large chunks of his backside. The YY with radar has no smoke and is screwed when more than one ship is shooting and they are kept spotted. 

Edited by thebigblue

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I love it when the anti-DD trolls come out and post, especially since I have them all blocked. It's always the exact same old tired learn to play tripe. :)

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While I understand your gripe the comment about learning to play might be correct here, you are mad because you can't kill a boat the was designed to specifically kill you, and even more mad that you don't have the tools to out run, out gun or fight this said boat in a dual.  You may indeed have to adjust your play style or put your boat on the bench as other have said.

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20 hours ago, Ju87s said:

you could give him a surprise by taking BFT, SE, and main battery mod 3 and facing him with an unexpected gunboat build shima

That's what I did after a couple of Ranked games in Shim. The extra firepower was nice, but the problem was not the damage trade, but that radar is an I-WIN button which has no counter. 

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 the trick is not to face check him, you need to run 90 degree to his bow and drag him into a chase. 

Drop your torps narrow but in a wide area to make him slow down / turn a bit, this will give you enough time to break his optimal range and use your superior aft gun layout to your advantage. 

 

Between the torps and your superior speed, you should have eonugh tools to draw him into a fight that is good for your ship. Just get him to chase you and then you should be good. 

 

I know its not a perfect situation, its really making best of a very bad encounter..  IMO the YY needs a serious nerf as its the defacto choice in CW and Ranked. Very strong ship takes the best of everything and puts it into 1 package. 

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If YY has radar it does not have smoke. So if you spot him, then he does radar, your team should wreck him as well. He can't fire his guns without being seen for 20 seconds. So I get from your post, that you are either out on your own, or you are not getting help from teammates. If your teammates are not helping you or can't shoot straight the game is lost anyway. If you are out on your own, be more careful. I have more battles in DD's than any other ship class, so I am not a BB baybe.

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38 minutes ago, Seagrizzly said:

While I understand your gripe the comment about learning to play might be correct here, you are mad because you can't kill a boat the was designed to specifically kill you, and even more mad that you don't have the tools to out run, out gun or fight this said boat in a dual.  You may indeed have to adjust your play style or put your boat on the bench as other have said.

It was not specifically made to kill shimas, all of the 10T DDs have little trouble killing shimas.

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9 minutes ago, Jarkorsis said:

If YY has radar it does not have smoke. So if you spot him, then he does radar, your team should wreck him as well. He can't fire his guns without being seen for 20 seconds. So I get from your post, that you are either out on your own, or you are not getting help from teammates. If your teammates are not helping you or can't shoot straight the game is lost anyway. If you are out on your own, be more careful. I have more battles in DD's than any other ship class, so I am not a BB baybe.

What people should do and what people generally can be worlds apart.

I have only had one battle today where the DDs were focused by my team when i spotted them and they were really on point even though there  was plenty of other close by targets they which to the DDs right away every time, i was shocked and with 17000 battles under my belt that is the first time i have seen such focus all game and not like at the start when a DD has been spotted on a cap and is the only target visible so all shoot because they have nothing else to shoot at.

Edited by Final8ty

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Probably not what people want to hear, but I didnt really play Shimakaze this season.  The main reason was map selection.  I felt most of the maps favored YY, and Z-52.  I played my Zed and kept a 60% WR in it.  Others worked too.  When I saw CVs in queue I would drop into my AA spec Groz and just solo caps. 

My point being if you want to decrease your stress level in ranked, pick the right tool for the job.  If you are playing for fun, or to play a certain ship there are going to be certain challenges you need to over come.

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12 hours ago, Destroyer_KuroshioKai said:

@Lensar  I played Shimakaze most of this CB season.  You need to be really on top of your Shima game, but it is possible to do it.

A few notes on how to beat them.

1.  You need RPF, and you need to be good at judging distance with it.  Your speed boost is only to be used for evading shells.  You are going to need it.

2.  You must do everything to avoid the perfect radar where the YY does not have to reveal himself at all.  This represents a perfect trade for him against your HP.  Some of the ways of doing this is denying him a rapid RPF bearing shift (that can only occur when something is close usually under 10km).  You do this by not driving parallel to his likely position.  Some YY players will sweep the area, by starting at one point and driving towards your RPF bearing, you can defeat this by staying closer than normal to support initially.  If he does use his radar  you should push him as you have an advantage in spotting here.  The worst case scenario is the YY uses a friendly (Zao might be the worst due to its punishing alpha) ships concealment to trigger his radar.  When a ship first pops up be ready to boogie.

3.  The best way I have found to defeat a radar YY is the combined might of my team.  Stick close to a Zao or Hindenburg or what ever good CA you have.  When I say stick close, basically do the math so you can keep them undetected and when the YY spots them you spot the YY.  When you spot the offending prick, you forget all that passive IJN DD crapand gun boat him.  A lot of YY players will fall for the bait thinking Shima is an easy kill and shoot at you.  I posted a thread on how to Shimakaze that gets pretty in depth into this here  You need to call target on the YY, do everything you can to get your team to shoot him.  There is no reason why if the YY is spotted that you should not be shooting.  If you drop off, he's likely to just radar you.  Maximize the damage output at him.  It really comes down to who is closest to their support, and provides the best support.  Save your smoke for when the YY is dead, or for your team mates so they can get a little more exposed to get damage on the YY.

4.  Since your smoke is often useless against YY, be active in smoking friendly CAs up, then spotting for them.  If possible you can drive the YY's CA support away forcing him to withdraw or risk having a lack of support when you find him.  This is common when his support is Hindenburgs and other less stealthy CAs.  This is more helpful later in the game.

5.  There are traps you can set where a friendly radar ship will radar a DD in cap.  Positioning yourself where you can create a crossfire behind the red DDs cover is very strong.  Just smoke up just outside enemy radar range and farm them.  This is one of the main things that separated the good DD players from the noobs.  The pros would use the cap as bait to get a good HP trade on the enemy DDs right out of the gate. 

6.  Another mark of the pros is baiting their radar, getting safe, then reengaging them in a fight where they have to shoot back.  Once they shoot, if you planned it right the YY can be detected by a friendly enabling you to smoke up and farm them. 

7.  Wolf pack as DDs to locate and kill an enemy DD.  This works even better than in CB usually as teams will focus both DDs ensuring that you both have good odds of surviving the fight.

8.  RPF torps can net you the occasional hit, but its far from being a reliable counter IME.  I usually used my torps to influence enemy CAs and BBs just prior to having a run at a YY.  They cant shoot me as much if they are busy dodging my torps.

My apologies this is sort of stream of consciousness, I'm recovering from a surgery and my posting isnt as good as it normally is.  PM me on the CUTE Discord if you like like more assistance.  https://discord.gg/37xdtuG

An excellent, excellent post.

Shima is not like other DDs. You really have to play smart and be hyper aware of the abilities of your enemies.  Map positioning and strategy are paramount.

If you're on your game you can be very successful.  How do I know?  I ran my Shima from 7.1 to 5.1 last night. Number of battles in the teens. Had a great win streak of 7 in a row I think and had a couple of top spot losses too.

Funniest chat was a Gearing calling me out for not being a team player and not knowing how to play Ranked because I didn't charge C cap on Mountain Range at the start of the game.  In true karma, he finished at the bottom while I finished second in the win.

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12 minutes ago, Destroyer_KuroshioKai said:

Probably not what people want to hear, but I didnt really play Shimakaze this season.  The main reason was map selection.  I felt most of the maps favored YY, and Z-52.  I played my Zed and kept a 60% WR in it.  Others worked too.  When I saw CVs in queue I would drop into my AA spec Groz and just solo caps. 

My point being if you want to decrease your stress level in ranked, pick the right tool for the job.  If you are playing for fun, or to play a certain ship there are going to be certain challenges you need to over come.

Can't argue with you about the right tools for the job, for the DD i only have one tool and the worst for it in T10 random and this ranked season, but the Meta play style of the other T10 ships is boring to me, i like to brawl and push but can't be doing that so i did try a few in the hind and conq but it gets boring fast for me having to hang back with the rest of the team not wanting to move.

Edited by Final8ty

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10 minutes ago, TheCompGuy25 said:

An excellent, excellent post.

Shima is not like other DDs. You really have to play smart and be hyper aware of the abilities of your enemies.  Map positioning and strategy are paramount.

If you're on your game you can be very successful.  How do I know?  I ran my Shima from 7.1 to 5.1 last night. Number of battles in the teens. Had a great win streak of 7 in a row I think and had a couple of top spot losses too.

Funniest chat was a Gearing calling me out for not being a team player and not knowing how to play Ranked because I didn't charge C cap on Mountain Range at the start of the game.  In true karma, he finished at the bottom while I finished second in the win.

That's the thing, most of the time when i do well in my shima, the team or someone is getting upset with what i'm doing because they expect me to play the shima just like any other DD.

They want me to stay in front and launch can be spotted from the moon torps on bow on targets and then they moan that i'm not hitting anything, so i like to flank and shoot from the side to give my torps the best chance of hitting targets but they moan what are you doing over there.

And C on Mountain Range is the worst cap for a shima at the start of the battle, but you have the best concealment, but they have radar so that is moot.

Edited by Final8ty

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1 hour ago, Final8ty said:

What people should do and what people generally can be worlds apart.

I have only had one battle today where the DDs were focused by my team when i spotted them and they were really on point even though there  was plenty of other close by targets they which to the DDs right away every time, i was shocked and with 17000 battles under my belt that is the first time i have seen such focus all game and not like at the start when a DD has been spotted on a cap and is the only target visible so all shoot because they have nothing else to shoot at.

I agree. Not quite half your number of battles but enough to realize target prioritization is a skill found lacking. Dd usually concealed so when lit they ought to attract everyone’s attn. I keep a careful eye in my dd’s on my about-to-die-ometer to see how many ships are aiming at me. If it’s just the dd that has me spotted I might fight it out. If it’s 3-4 ships then I’m hitting the smoke, the afterburners and gtfo.

its equally frustrating when I’m in a cruiser. I put myself at risk getting most of the cap within range of my radar. Tell everyone “Radar at C in 30sec, load HE” and then do it. Sure as hell, 9-10 times it’s only me shooting at the newly revealed targets. 20-30 secs of radar wasted. Now since I busted my concealment I have to figure out how to turn and run without getting nuked in the side or taking 12red torps. 

On the other hand, those 1/10 times when the team works together is really beautiful.

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20 minutes ago, Final8ty said:

That's the thing, most of the time when i do well in my shima, the team or someone is getting upset with what i'm doing because they expect me to play the shima just like any other DD.

They want me to stay in front and launch can be spotted from the moon torps on bow on targets and then they moan that i'm not hitting anything, so i like to flank and shoot from the side to give my torps the best chance of hitting targets but they moan what are you doing over there.

And C on Mountain Range is the worst cap for a shima at the start of the battle, but you have the best concealment, but they have radar so that is moot.

I think there is as much variation among dd as any other class. Some do some things well and others do other things well. It sounds like lensar might do well to join the YY club. It might better suit the way he is approaching ranked.

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3 hours ago, Seagrizzly said:

While I understand your gripe the comment about learning to play might be correct here, you are mad because you can't kill a boat the was designed to specifically kill you, and even more mad that you don't have the tools to out run, out gun or fight this said boat in a dual.  You may indeed have to adjust your play style or put your boat on the bench as other have said.

No, not at all. I have no interest in killing that ship. I don't play a Shima for DD on DD duels.

My issue is that, unlike other radar ships, where the "l2p" response is to find out where they are and then stay outside their radar range, that's not possible with an enemy DD that has radar range that greatly exceeds it's detection range. 

The only way to further adjust play style is to not play the shima, hide behind an island, or hug the map edge. Consequently, I suppose you could also just hang out back with the BBs. But seriously, it's pretty ridiculous.

 

2 hours ago, Cobraclutch said:

the trick is not to face check him, you need to run 90 degree to his bow and drag him into a chase. 

Drop your torps narrow but in a wide area to make him slow down / turn a bit, this will give you enough time to break his optimal range and use your superior aft gun layout to your advantage. 

 

Between the torps and your superior speed, you should have eonugh tools to draw him into a fight that is good for your ship. Just get him to chase you and then you should be good. 

My encounters with YYs are always with me running parallel to them, (pretty much at 90 degrees). I spot them, immediately turn out and hit speed boost. They radar, turn in, and pursue. Usually they fire, tho if they were smart, they wouldn't, and just run dark keeping me lit for their teammates.

The problem is, and pretty much has always been, being radared unexpectedtly.  Bumping into another ship's detection range and being spotted is the normal state of affairs, and generally offers DDs a few options to disengage: Smoke, turn out and speed away, etc.

Anytime your main form of defense (concealment) is suddenly stripped away without warning, there is a very significant chance you'll be crippled or killed. This is especially true in a low HP, slow turning ship like the Shima. 

1 hour ago, TheCompGuy25 said:

If you're on your game you can be very successful.  How do I know?  I ran my Shima from 7.1 to 5.1 last night. Number of battles in the teens. Had a great win streak of 7 in a row I think and had a couple of top spot losses too.

I did fine with the Shima up to rank 5. From 5 to 1 is where things change drastically, as players are much better across the board. I'd be interesting in hearing how things go for you from here on out.

 

1 hour ago, Final8ty said:

That's the thing, most of the time when i do well in my shima, the team or someone is getting upset with what i'm doing because they expect me to play the shima just like any other DD.

They want me to stay in front and launch can be spotted from the moon torps on bow on targets and then they moan that i'm not hitting anything, so i like to flank and shoot from the side to give my torps the best chance of hitting targets but they moan what are you doing over there.

Yeah, the problem is that hanging out on the flanks, tossing torps every 100 or so seconds, isn't gonna help your team win a ranked match. The key is spotting, screening, and area denial. Capping comes into play too, but it's usually very secondary.

A shima that can't fulfill that role hurts the team, much in the same way a Khab does, only without all the benefits that come with a Russian DD.

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5 minutes ago, Lensar said:

 

I did fine with the Shima up to rank 5. From 5 to 1 is where things change drastically, as players are much better across the board. I'd be interesting in hearing how things go for you from here on out.

 

My experience in CW. Once we started encountering Hurricane teams more and more. It was de facto YY's running around with Radar and RPF. My Gearing was pretty much neutered at that point. 

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15 minutes ago, Lensar said:

No, not at all. I have no interest in killing that ship. I don't play a Shima for DD on DD duels.

My issue is that, unlike other radar ships, where the "l2p" response is to find out where they are and then stay outside their radar range, that's not possible with an enemy DD that has radar range that greatly exceeds it's detection range. 

The only way to further adjust play style is to not play the shima, hide behind an island, or hug the map edge. Consequently, I suppose you could also just hang out back with the BBs. But seriously, it's pretty ridiculous.

 

My encounters with YYs are always with me running parallel to them, (pretty much at 90 degrees). I spot them, immediately turn out and hit speed boost. They radar, turn in, and pursue. Usually they fire, tho if they were smart, they wouldn't, and just run dark keeping me lit for their teammates.

The problem is, and pretty much has always been, being radared unexpectedtly.  Bumping into another ship's detection range and being spotted is the normal state of affairs, and generally offers DDs a few options to disengage: Smoke, turn out and speed away, etc.

Anytime your main form of defense (concealment) is suddenly stripped away without warning, there is a very significant chance you'll be crippled or killed. This is especially true in a low HP, slow turning ship like the Shima. 

I did fine with the Shima up to rank 5. From 5 to 1 is where things change drastically, as players are much better across the board. I'd be interesting in hearing how things go for you from here on out.

 

Yeah, the problem is that hanging out on the flanks, tossing torps every 100 or so seconds, isn't gonna help your team win a ranked match. The key is spotting, screening, and area denial. Capping comes into play too, but it's usually very secondary.

A shima that can't fulfill that role hurts the team, much in the same way a Khab does, only without all the benefits that come with a Russian DD.

Well it works for me im very good at it, its when i cant get to do it is when we lose more, in ranked that key is not working or i would of ranked out by now.

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3 hours ago, Jarkorsis said:

If YY has radar it does not have smoke. So if you spot him, then he does radar, your team should wreck him as well. He can't fire his guns without being seen for 20 seconds. So I get from your post, that you are either out on your own, or you are not getting help from teammates. If your teammates are not helping you or can't shoot straight the game is lost anyway. If you are out on your own, be more careful. I have more battles in DD's than any other ship class, so I am not a BB baybe.

YY will never get spotted though. That's the whole point. You would have to be an idiot to go near one because they will turn out and radar. If you turn out, then they chase with radar. Then they're undetected, you can't push, and you're the one permaspotted for 20 seconds because you can't escape 7.5km radar.

Only counter to YY is YY with a better team.

Edited by awildseaking

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2 hours ago, Destroyer_KuroshioKai said:

Probably not what people want to hear, but I didnt really play Shimakaze this season.  The main reason was map selection.  I felt most of the maps favored YY, and Z-52.  I played my Zed and kept a 60% WR in it.  Others worked too.  When I saw CVs in queue I would drop into my AA spec Groz and just solo caps. 

My point being if you want to decrease your stress level in ranked, pick the right tool for the job.  If you are playing for fun, or to play a certain ship there are going to be certain challenges you need to over come.

Don't worry, I agree with you. I bring my Shimakaze to grind ranks with pure intention to tell people that this ship is bad and need a buff. Whenever I hear a complain, my defactor response will be "If you think the ship is bad, please go to forum, demand a buff for it, don't complain to me why I bring a bad ship to your game. I am SICK AND TIRED of HYPOCRITES who complains a ship is bad only when it's directly affecting their selfish progress while whenever other people complains their ships are bad and need a buff, they would gladly come in and blame it on the player, and assert that the ship is fine"

And you know, probably the same group of people pretends that radar thru mountain are NOT GAME BREAKING at all would just complain that "Why my team don't have radar? Stupid MM, certain lost" in game. Oh wait, shouldn't they be bringing their Desmoines in game? Oh no, who are you asking, they are bringing Zao/Hindenburg too to save their stars!

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1 minute ago, l1nv5 said:

Don't worry, I agree with you. I bring my Shimakaze to grind ranks with pure intention to tell people that this ship is bad and need a buff. Whenever I hear a complain, my defactor response will be "If you think the ship is bad, please go to forum, demand a buff for it, don't complain to me why I bring a bad ship to your game. I am SICK AND TIRED of HYPOCRITES who complains a ship is bad only when it's directly affecting their selfish progress while whenever other people complains their ships are bad and need a buff, they would gladly come in and blame it on the player, and assert that the ship is fine"

And you know, probably the same group of people pretends that radar thru mountain are NOT GAME BREAKING at all would just complain that "Why my team don't have radar? Stupid MM, certain lost" in game. Oh wait, shouldn't they be bringing their Desmoines in game? Oh no, who are you asking, they are bringing Zao/Hindenburg too to save their stars!

Just read my text again, sorry for sounding disrespectful but no disrespect intended, probably just too much salt grinding to rank 3 with Shimakaze. But yes, point remains. If you think a ship is bad, it can't be bad for only ranked (because it affects your team rank progress) but also bad for everything else. Please stand in the shoes of the driver of that Shimakaze, how do you think he can enjoy the ship while you can't just only because it took away a spot for YY or Z52 on your team? Just think, PLEASE!

And Radar. You WANT it in your team or your team will have higher chance of losing. You ALL subconsciously knew it before that RADAR breaks the game, team with more radar has better fighting chance. Yet somehow in the forum whenever anyone complains about radar, you ALL are talking like as if RADAR is NOTHING, super EASY to work around, on the same low level as WASD hack on BBs. NO! and YOU ALL knew it. JUST FREAKING THINK ABOUT IT!

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27 minutes ago, l1nv5 said:

Just read my text again, sorry for sounding disrespectful but no disrespect intended, probably just too much salt grinding to rank 3 with Shimakaze. But yes, point remains. If you think a ship is bad, it can't be bad for only ranked (because it affects your team rank progress) but also bad for everything else. Please stand in the shoes of the driver of that Shimakaze, how do you think he can enjoy the ship while you can't just only because it took away a spot for YY or Z52 on your team? Just think, PLEASE!

And Radar. You WANT it in your team or your team will have higher chance of losing. You ALL subconsciously knew it before that RADAR breaks the game, team with more radar has better fighting chance. Yet somehow in the forum whenever anyone complains about radar, you ALL are talking like as if RADAR is NOTHING, super EASY to work around, on the same low level as WASD hack on BBs. NO! and YOU ALL knew it. JUST FREAKING THINK ABOUT IT!

Spot on, i just had a battle on hotspot, we lost hard because our only radar ships a Des went 2/3rds to C cap with the 2 DDs and then did a 180 back to A cap.

4 of us said what are you doing Des go back to C and help our DDs, he did not he just went right back to  A died to BBs, our DDs died fast in C cap to radar and that was pretty much game.

Edited by Final8ty

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25 minutes ago, l1nv5 said:

Just read my text again, sorry for sounding disrespectful but no disrespect intended, probably just too much salt grinding to rank 3 with Shimakaze. But yes, point remains. If you think a ship is bad, it can't be bad for only ranked (because it affects your team rank progress) but also bad for everything else. Please stand in the shoes of the driver of that Shimakaze, how do you think he can enjoy the ship while you can't just only because it took away a spot for YY or Z52 on your team? Just think, PLEASE!

And Radar. You WANT it in your team or your team will have higher chance of losing. You ALL subconsciously knew it before that RADAR breaks the game, team with more radar has better fighting chance. Yet somehow in the forum whenever anyone complains about radar, you ALL are talking like as if RADAR is NOTHING, super EASY to work around, on the same low level as WASD hack on BBs. NO! and YOU ALL knew it. JUST FREAKING THINK ABOUT IT!

I dont think Shima is bad at all, on the contrary she's one of my favorites.  She is because she is so different.

I fear that the more buffs people demand the more she will lose her identity, and her way of fighting other DDs.  Buffing her turret rotation, giving her a ROF buff just makes her play more like a US DD. 

If anything, keep the slower turret rotation, because IJN DDs are not knife fighters, and give them the old HE alpha, even if you have to nerf the ROF. 

My point is her strong points favor maps that have little cover so she can utilize her spotting advantage and speed.  The only maps I really consider Shima friendly this season is Tears of the Desert.  The other maps might have a could areas that are open, but the important cap areas have sufficient cover for DDs to hide behind.  That cover just cries for the persistent presence of a Z-52 which is part of the reason why I feel she is the tool for the job this season.  YY radar is just too short to make a meaningful difference on nasty caps like C caps on Hotspot and Mountain Range.

Shimakaze I feel actually works better in the rank 5 bracket where players are more likely to give you support, but also take advantage of intelligent scouting.  I would approach the game not by looking to engage the enemy DDs, but rather locate the enemy radar CAs for focused fire.  Often times this put me in positions though that an enemy DD would try to cap, and I could smoke up and get some good damage on them.

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