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Lensar

T10 Ranked: Shima vs Yueyang is about as broken as it can get

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Am I the only shima player who stops queuing if there's only a couple of DDs in the rank 5+ bracket at the moment and the other is a YY?

I have no idea how to deal with a YY in Shima, other than to stop playing ranked the moment I see one in a match. 

 

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not quit the same -- but sort of ....if I'm driving a DD, I hit eject if I see 2 CVs in queue.   I'll deal with radar.  But I ain't dealing with radar and constant air spotting.  

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14 minutes ago, Lensar said:

 

Am I the only shima player who stops queuing if there's only a couple of DDs in the rank 5+ bracket at the moment and the other is a YY?

I have no idea how to deal with a YY in Shima, other than to stop playing ranked the moment I see one in a match. 

 

If you aren't running it, RPF helps a lot in those scenarios.  Other than that, you basically have to beg, plead, promise naughty favors, or whatever it takes to get your cruisers to push up close enough to counter-radar & get fire on him when he spots you.  And hope that you have a handy island or two to duck behind while you wait it out.

God bless ya for still going at it with the Shima!  I just couldn't deal with the frustration anymore. :Smile_sad:

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Good luck Lensar. I stopped at Rank 8 in Shim. Radar makes Ranked tiresome and stupid for DD drivers, and putting radar on a DD was one of the dumbest decisions WG has ever made.

You notice when they send around those cheerful, brain-dead surveys, they never ask you about things like whether there should be CVs in every match in Coop or whether there should be radar on DDs or what tier would be good for Ranked -- it's as if their marketing people are stuck in the 1950s.

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1 hour ago, Harv72b said:

If you aren't running it, RPF helps a lot in those scenarios.

That's a good point. I'll respec into it and see how it goes.

 

56 minutes ago, Taichunger said:

Radar makes Ranked tiresome and stupid for DD drivers, and putting radar on a DD was one of the dumbest decisions WG has ever made.

It's insipid and ridiculous.

A shima that spots a YY at the start of the match has no options but to die (and then be ridiculed by their teammates for 'suiciding'). The YY radars as soon as it's spotted and the shima needs to suck up 20+  seconds of detection, since it can't gain meaningful distance from a chasing YY. 

 

 

Edited by Lensar
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15 hours ago, Lensar said:

A shima that spots a YY at the start of the match has no options but to die (and then be ridiculed by their teammates for 'suiciding'). The YY radars as soon as it's spotted and the needs to suck up 20+ of detection, since it can't gain meaningful distance from a chasing YY. 

Exactly. And everything within range opens up on it. 

They put radar on DDs and then complain everyone is playing BBs. They jack up ROF on garbage HE spammers and AP spammers, and then complain everyone is playing BBs. They add more radar cruisers with no armor and then complain everyone is playing BBs. 

The only possible conclusion, judging from the decisions WG actually makes, is that they don't want people in DDs -- they want them in BBs. Every game decision simply gives players more incentive to play BBs. It's why I have come to understand that whenever a dev says WG knows there are too many BBs, that nerfs to DDs are inbound. 

I don't play my Z-52 anymore, and in T10 play only Shim, which I bought back after the recent buff. I play only Yug at T9, pretty much retired my Fletcher. Didn't bother to go up to T8-10 PA DDs since I play so little high tier DD anymore and I didn't want to introduce any radar DDs into the game. Can't play Russky gunboats so I don't play them.

Game should be fun. It should be full of desperate chess matches in caps between DDs. It should be full of ambushes and stealth torping. 

Radar has made it a trial and reduced the fun factor for DD players.

How I miss my old Fubuki...  

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I hate to say it, but play something else. Either the Khab, or a fire breathing Cruiser.

Don't play to win, just farm damage. You'll be able to save a star if you beat out everyone else.

Unfortunately, it's come down to this..

 

Edited by Wulfgarn
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2 minutes ago, Wulfgarn said:

I hate to say it, but play something else. Either the Khab, or a fire breathing Cruiser.

Don't play to win, just farm damage. You'll be able to save a star if you beat out everyone else.

 

The whole reason I play WoWS is because it's a team-based game and it's fun trying to do whatever it takes to win.

I have no interest mindlessly farming XP while watching my teammates struggle to try and win. 

Such a sad state of affairs, especially since WG seems clueless about what it's done to the high tier game. It's like they balance the game based on potatoes, with zero regard for how it affects higher-end play. 

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10 minutes ago, Taichunger said:


The only possible conclusion, judging from the decisions WG actually makes, is that they don't want people in DDs...

 

Well, it's easy enough to believe that they don't want people in Japanese DDs anyway.

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10 minutes ago, Lensar said:

 

The whole reason I play WoWS is because it's a team-based game and it's fun trying to do whatever it takes to win.

I have no interest mindlessly farming XP while watching my teammates struggle to try and win. 

Such a sad state of affairs, especially since WG seems clueless about what it's done to the high tier game. It's like they balance the game based on potatoes, with zero regard for how it affects higher-end play. 

Right there with ya. :Smile_honoring:

I took no pleasure making that suggestion. 

Edited by Wulfgarn
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Try having fun with the F3s in the random where you play for fun. Ranked is a place where strength has the word. Try play z-52s or YYs in the ranked to win lol.

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1 hour ago, Lensar said:

That's a good point. I'll respec into it and see how it goes.

Good luck with that; it's a four point skill and therefore very expensive by way of what you have to give up to get it. 

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Well YueYang radar has no smoke so the moment you survive his radar you should be able to outspot him and even gun him down. In the best scenario, your team mate would be shooting him as well but if there is something WOW reminds me is to never ever count on team mate.

 

Bait his radar ? That's the only thing that come in mind  

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@Lensar  I played Shimakaze most of this CB season.  You need to be really on top of your Shima game, but it is possible to do it.

A few notes on how to beat them.

1.  You need RPF, and you need to be good at judging distance with it.  Your speed boost is only to be used for evading shells.  You are going to need it.

2.  You must do everything to avoid the perfect radar where the YY does not have to reveal himself at all.  This represents a perfect trade for him against your HP.  Some of the ways of doing this is denying him a rapid RPF bearing shift (that can only occur when something is close usually under 10km).  You do this by not driving parallel to his likely position.  Some YY players will sweep the area, by starting at one point and driving towards your RPF bearing, you can defeat this by staying closer than normal to support initially.  If he does use his radar  you should push him as you have an advantage in spotting here.  The worst case scenario is the YY uses a friendly (Zao might be the worst due to its punishing alpha) ships concealment to trigger his radar.  When a ship first pops up be ready to boogie.

3.  The best way I have found to defeat a radar YY is the combined might of my team.  Stick close to a Zao or Hindenburg or what ever good CA you have.  When I say stick close, basically do the math so you can keep them undetected and when the YY spots them you spot the YY.  When you spot the offending prick, you forget all that passive IJN DD crapand gun boat him.  A lot of YY players will fall for the bait thinking Shima is an easy kill and shoot at you.  I posted a thread on how to Shimakaze that gets pretty in depth into this here  You need to call target on the YY, do everything you can to get your team to shoot him.  There is no reason why if the YY is spotted that you should not be shooting.  If you drop off, he's likely to just radar you.  Maximize the damage output at him.  It really comes down to who is closest to their support, and provides the best support.  Save your smoke for when the YY is dead, or for your team mates so they can get a little more exposed to get damage on the YY.

4.  Since your smoke is often useless against YY, be active in smoking friendly CAs up, then spotting for them.  If possible you can drive the YY's CA support away forcing him to withdraw or risk having a lack of support when you find him.  This is common when his support is Hindenburgs and other less stealthy CAs.  This is more helpful later in the game.

5.  There are traps you can set where a friendly radar ship will radar a DD in cap.  Positioning yourself where you can create a crossfire behind the red DDs cover is very strong.  Just smoke up just outside enemy radar range and farm them.  This is one of the main things that separated the good DD players from the noobs.  The pros would use the cap as bait to get a good HP trade on the enemy DDs right out of the gate. 

6.  Another mark of the pros is baiting their radar, getting safe, then reengaging them in a fight where they have to shoot back.  Once they shoot, if you planned it right the YY can be detected by a friendly enabling you to smoke up and farm them. 

7.  Wolf pack as DDs to locate and kill an enemy DD.  This works even better than in CB usually as teams will focus both DDs ensuring that you both have good odds of surviving the fight.

8.  RPF torps can net you the occasional hit, but its far from being a reliable counter IME.  I usually used my torps to influence enemy CAs and BBs just prior to having a run at a YY.  They cant shoot me as much if they are busy dodging my torps.

My apologies this is sort of stream of consciousness, I'm recovering from a surgery and my posting isnt as good as it normally is.  PM me on the CUTE Discord if you like like more assistance.  https://discord.gg/37xdtuG

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4 hours ago, Lensar said:

 

Am I the only shima player who stops queuing if there's only a couple of DDs in the rank 5+ bracket at the moment and the other is a YY?

I have no idea how to deal with a YY in Shima, other than to stop playing ranked the moment I see one in a match. 

 

RUN

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4 hours ago, Lensar said:

 

Am I the only shima player who stops queuing if there's only a couple of DDs in the rank 5+ bracket at the moment and the other is a YY?

I have no idea how to deal with a YY in Shima, other than to stop playing ranked the moment I see one in a match. 

 

Sometimes one ship doesn't do well against another. That's what allies are for. It's not a dueling game, it's a team game. Shima is not an anti DD platform. It does best against BBs and clumsier cruisers. It needs to play smart, use superior spotting, and bide its time against other DDs. The Shima in the ranked game I was just in was baiting the Yueyang to come out where I could get at him in my Des Moines from behind an island. He'd go in and spot him and draw some fire, then run so I could pinpoint him. I wasn't able to kill it completely, but I was able to badly damage it and drive it out of the cap so the Shima could take it. 

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Shimi is not really an anti-DD ship unless the enemy DD stupidly eats torps or detonates (A Shimi detonated my Khaba once...so embarassing).  So you don't like YY's.   The answer is to park your Shimi at the port and grab a Khaba or a DD killing cruiser like DM or Minotaur and hunt YY's if it makes you feel better.

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2 hours ago, Destroyer_KuroshioKai said:

A few notes on how to beat them.

Thanks for the thoughts. Some quick replies.

1. Yes, I took it. It's pretty devastating build-wise. 

2. That's not the problem. The problem is moving to contact, which is the entire reason someone plays a shima, since we have the lowest concealment. The DD with radar disaster pretty much kills the single advantage the shima has. Once you spot them, they radar, and that's it, their whole flank opens up on you. (best case, your flank opens up on the YY. too.

3. Agreed. It means the Shima can only really screen, rather than scout. Since you need to stay close to your CA support. Which, again, isn't the Shima's strength. Most other DDs will do that better.

4. Agreed on smoke being useless. Hindys are bad choice, since they tend to ignore smoke in favor of remaining at speed. I usually drop my smoke on the DM since it's useless for me.

5. That never happens in my experience, at least not in the Rank 5-1 bracket. No one risk capping with so much radar in the game. So it's more about flanking spotting to see who can get a kill or two first.

6. In theory, baiting radar sounds great. In reality, it's a good way to get knocked out of a match asap. In my experience, both CAs and BBs are incredibly accurate at higher ranks and even with SE on the Shima (which is pricey if you're also taking RPF and Concealment) you're still one of the squishiest DDs out there.

7. Agreed. My biggest problem is when there is only one DD per side, my Shima vs their YY. 

8. Only have a few ranked matches in with RPF, but the first thing I've noticed is that it's huge in letting you know where someone ISN'T, rather than where they are. Which again, is fairly sad, since the idea of playing the lowest concealment DD is to allow you to get closer and spot the enemy, but RPF is providing me that opportunity. Which, of course, it would provide non-concealment-focused DDs the same benefit, as well, without the shima trade offs.

2 hours ago, Final8ty said:

RUN

Yes, only the YY will pursue to keep you lit as long as possible. If he's smart he won't even fire, just drop out of detection range and follow you to keep you in his radar range while his teammates crush you. 

 

1 hour ago, Tzarevitch said:

Sometimes one ship doesn't do well against another. That's what allies are for. It's not a dueling game, it's a team game. Shima is not an anti DD platform. It does best against BBs and clumsier cruisers.

Well, that's not how ranked is played sadly. It's not about DD vs DD, it's about spotting and screening. Prior to the introduction of a friggen DD with radar, the shima had the advantage of being able to scout then withdraw, allowing it to harass and in many ways neutralize enemy DDs without firing a shot.

The YY renders it useless in that role. It's not that it's a bad match up. It's that it takes away the only thing the shima has going for it, the best concealment.

 

1 hour ago, _MiDKnighTx_ said:

Shimi is not really an anti-DD ship unless the enemy DD stupidly eats torps or detonates (A Shimi detonated my Khaba once...so embarassing). 

But it's not about DD vs DD dueling. The shima has never been great at that. And you're right that it's arguably the worst DD for ranked. Since it can't even use it's concealment advantage to scout, spot, and screen. 

I really feel like WG is balancing the game for the unwashed potato masses. A shima can do great in random against a bunch of pugs because plenty of people don't pay attention and eat torps. In more competitive ranked, players are much more situationally aware. 

Edited by Lensar
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Stop hitting yourself and bench Shima. YY is fundamentally overpowered and can't be balanced without arbitrary and nonsensical nerfs. WG dug a really deep hole with this one. Here's what they could do to YY:

  1. Remove radar. Probably won't happen because T8-10 national flavor(s).
  2. Nerf concealment. The most they can do is make it equal to Gearing, but this doesn't solve the problem because YY still has radar.
  3. Nerf offensive soft stats. Probably won't happen because WG tries to maintain historical RoF.
  4. Nerf survivability. Reduced health is supposed to be one of the downsides to PADD, but there are no substantial reductions at any tier.

WG could always add a counter to radar, but that's even less likely to happen than Kitakami returning.

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3 hours ago, Lensar said:

 

Yes, only the YY will pursue to keep you lit as long as possible. If he's smart he won't even fire, just drop out of detection range and follow you to keep you in his radar range while his teammates crush you. 

Since i have been playing ranked a YY has only managed to get me killed once by pursuing me in my shima. i have gotten away every other time.

I have to agree with everything else you said and the YY makes the shima concealment useless.

Edited by Final8ty

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5 hours ago, Tzarevitch said:

Sometimes one ship doesn't do well against another. That's what allies are for. It's not a dueling game, it's a team game. Shima is not an anti DD platform. It does best against BBs and clumsier cruisers. It needs to play smart, use superior spotting, and bide its time against other DDs. The Shima in the ranked game I was just in was baiting the Yueyang to come out where I could get at him in my Des Moines from behind an island. He'd go in and spot him and draw some fire, then run so I could pinpoint him. I wasn't able to kill it completely, but I was able to badly damage it and drive it out of the cap so the Shima could take it. 

And how many battles could you keep pulling that scenario, the problem is you can't  rely on others being in the right place at the right time battle after battle, the shima is really shafted.

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10 hours ago, Lensar said:

 

Am I the only shima player who stops queuing if there's only a couple of DDs in the rank 5+ bracket at the moment and the other is a YY?

I have no idea how to deal with a YY in Shima, other than to stop playing ranked the moment I see one in a match. 

 

you could give him a surprise by taking BFT, SE, and main battery mod 3 and facing him with an unexpected gunboat build shima

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1 hour ago, Final8ty said:

Since i have been playing ranked a YY has only managed to get me killed once by pursuing me in my shima. i have gotten away every other time.

I'm not talking about late match where you bump into the YY and no one else is around, I'm talking at the start, where he can follow you for 20+ seconds keeping you lit, so the rest of his team on that flank can dumpster you.

 

14 minutes ago, Ju87s said:

you could give him a surprise by taking BFT, SE, and main battery mod 3 and facing him with an unexpected gunboat build shima

Again, I'm not talking about late match duels. It doesn't matter what I can do to him, what matters is that he can spot me so the rest of his team can delete me. Most ranked matches are decided by the first ship that's killed. For a Shima to avoid being that first ship killed, he absolutely positively needs to not run into the YY when the YY's teammates have a firing solution.

So what's a shima to do? Go hug an island some place? Hang out on the edge of the map? It's just stupid and ridiculous. The ship simply cannot fulfill it's role and is a net negative when brought into a ranked battle. 

My ranked win rate with the Shima is 52.5% which is far higher than it deserves to be. I'm doing my teammates a grave disservice by bringing that ship into Rank 5-1 matches with the current radartastic environment. 

I've said all along that radar was the worst mechanic in online gaming history. People loved to argue that it wasn't a big deal. And it's not really a big deal in random matches. It's not even a big deal in T8 ranked. 

But it's game breaking in T10 ranked, we just needed this ranked season to happen so people would realize it.

Edited by Lensar
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1 minute ago, Lensar said:

I'm not talking about late match where you bump into the YY and no one else is around, I'm talking at the start, where he can follow you for 20+ seconds keeping you lit, so the rest of his team on that flank can dumpster you.

 

 

Im very good at dodging shells it does not matter start middle or late game, i run into YY all the time. i outrun them its as simple as that with coordinated rudder shifting, i look at the shells coming in, i don't just randomly wiggle.

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1 minute ago, Final8ty said:

Im very good at dodging shells it does not matter start middle or late game, i run into YY all the time. i outrun them its as simple as that with coordinated rudder shifting, i look at the shells coming in, i don't just randomly wiggle.

Love to see some replays. Maybe I'm doing something wrong. 20 seconds is a long time to dodge shells and live.

And that's not to say that I'm outright killed every time it happens. A lot of the time I make it away with 10% health. But that's as good as dead for the most part, as I can't risk being spotted as a shell or two will finish me off.

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