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why_u_heff_to_be_mad

When to take SE, at what tier - also guns vs torps

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Hey

So SE is a mainstay of ranked builds for tier 8 and 10 for obvious reasons, 2800 and 3500 extra  HP is a big deal and often the margin between life and death, especially for knife fighting DDs.

I wonder how low of a tier is it worth taking though? I just put it on my Farragut for an extra  2100 HP but wonder if it's worth taking over SI, BFT, DE, each of which has a place.

I'm also wondering about Gearing builds. I almost never see a gun focused build, that includes  BFT and the reloading mod, instead people help out Torpedo reload. This makes sense because Gearing has great torps, but I wonder if the ability to squeeze out torps 20 seconds faster is worth the DPM loss in a DD fight

 

Thoughts

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I have a few higher tier DDs (Lo Yang, HseinYang, Udaloi, Kiev, Ognevoi) and I never really took SE before tier 8.  I didn't really see the value of return before then, particularly at tier 6 and below.  Tier 7, I probably could have justified it, but at tier 8 and above, particularly for lower base health DDs, it's essential.  

For Farragut, I personally wouldn't take it, at least not in your first 10 skill points.  For 13, it might not be a bad choice, but that also boils down to personal preference.  

Can't help you with Gearing, not there yet.   Just my $.02

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I take SE on pretty much all my DD's, Tier 5 and up.  For 3 point skills, I would rather have the extra 1700+ HP than the extra charges that Superintendent gives you, (that I can buy with credits in the prem versions anyway). 

IMO, it's more important to stay alive than have an extra smoke or speed boost, and 1700+ extra HP can mean the difference between dying from a torp hit in a lot of cases.  It has saved me a bunch, and i have had some pretty good damage games with only 800-1500 HP left on a DD, where I would be dead without SE.

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SE starts to make sense after T7. But I took it on Shinonome last season of ranked. You need to live as long as possible in competitive.

As for Gearing, I run torp build. The guns without any boost are good enough. I am in the belief that you don't look for fight in a DD. Any DD. Trading with a red DD is a bad deal. I either build to defend myself or avoid contact altogether. So my DDs have RDF if it doesn't have smoke. I gun fight only when forced or I am sure I have local numerical advantage.

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Fletcher is the first ship I use it on, but she is also spec’d as a gunship and not on her torpedoes.

Happy and it pays off. Will take this build to my Gearing :)

I personally don’t need this skill on my SN DDs, because I can dodge enemy shells quite easily and I have also access to a repair party. Might be handy for my German DDs, but those are spec’d on torpedoes, because I make my gun fights rely on smoke and hydro.

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I run SE on the bigger, chunkier destroyers that are easier targets to hit like Gearing, Shimakaze and Khabarovsk. I'd rather put more utility into the destroyers with lower hulls.

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If you find yourself struggling to win knife fights with other DDs, then BFT is helpful. If you find yourself outplaying red DDs 90% of the time, spend the captain points elsewhere. 

Edited by Kombat_W0MBAT

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2 hours ago, why_u_heff_to_be_mad said:

HP is a big deal and often the margin between life and death, especially for knife fighting DDs.

You're right about it being very useful for DDs; for battleships and CAs it amounts to one good strikes worth of HP, so it's a very class oriented skill.

2 hours ago, why_u_heff_to_be_mad said:

I just put it on my Farragut for an extra  2100 HP but wonder if it's worth taking over SI, BFT, DE, each of which has a place.

You have hit upon the crux of the SE debate; as a tier 3 skill there are a lot of other skills available which are also very useful, honestly I think it comes down to playstyle, which is as individualized as it can get and why every Captain has different build preferences.

2 hours ago, why_u_heff_to_be_mad said:

I'm also wondering about Gearing builds. I almost never see a gun focused build, that includes  BFT and the reloading mod, instead people help out Torpedo reload. This makes sense because Gearing has great torps, but I wonder if the ability to squeeze out torps 20 seconds faster is worth the DPM loss in a DD fight

Gearing guns are awesome ... within about 8 K, because after that the horrid gun arcs make a mockery of accuracy. Again, it comes down to playstyle, in this case are you a knife-fighter or a torp spammer? Whichever one you are, there is your answer.

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I take it on DDs I intend to use the guns on, regardless of build. The Japanese DDs are the only line I don’t take it as my first t3 skill, but I do get it eventually. 

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I transfer all of my captains up from one ship to another as I move up a line, so pretty much all of my destroyer captains have SE.

Increased HP is useful on pretty much all destroyers, TBH.

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3 hours ago, digitaljustice said:

I take SE on pretty much all my DD's, Tier 5 and up.  For 3 point skills, I would rather have the extra 1700+ HP than the extra charges that Superintendent gives you, (that I can buy with credits in the prem versions anyway). 

IMO, it's more important to stay alive than have an extra smoke or speed boost, and 1700+ extra HP can mean the difference between dying from a torp hit in a lot of cases.  It has saved me a bunch, and i have had some pretty good damage games with only 800-1500 HP left on a DD, where I would be dead without SE.


Pretty much this, though I also run SE on my tier 4 seal clubbers, because it can (and often does) mean the difference between surviving on low HP and continuing to dominate the game, versus getting knocked out halfway through and relying on your team to finish what you started. Being able to shrug off that unlucky, random overpen from enemy BB is quite handy.

--Helms

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I usually like to start using SE around Tier 7 and up, or in individual captain terms, right around the 10 - 12 pt stage. Some ships I will take it at 10 pts, and others I will grab AR first, then SE.

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4 hours ago, Kombat_W0MBAT said:

If you find yourself struggling to win knife fights with other DDs, take skills to help with that (i.e. BFT and SE). If you find yourself outplaying red DDs 90% of the time, spend the captain points elsewhere. 

ouch

what do you run on t8+ US DDs?

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1 hour ago, why_u_heff_to_be_mad said:

ouch

what do you run on t8+ US DDs?

That wasn't meant to be a jab... apologies if that's how it came across.

In retrospect, misrepresented the usefulness of SE in my earlier comment. It's useful on all high tier DDs. BFT is the one that I rarely take. 

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At T8 & above, SE should be the first 3-point skill you take with your destroyer captains.  It's a useful skill at any tier in a destroyer, however.  Even at tier 2, a fully upgraded Sampson carries 9,100 hit points...adding 700 via SE is about a 7.6% increase to your HP pool.  That's one additional HE pen you can survive from a same-tier DD or cruiser, or very nearly enough to survive one full duration fire.

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I've converted to using SE for almost all my DD. Cos math (though don't guarantee the logic!)

BFT adds 10% to guns. TAE adds 10% to torps. DE adds more fire chance, but the math in that varies and I'm not fond of relying on RNG. 

 

SE adds 10-15% to survivability. This (in my mind at least) means your guns AND torps are both in action 15% longer.

In addition, you can survive longer and do say 15% more spotting and capping.  I feel SE indirectly buffs all areas, whereas, say BFT only effects one area.  Even on a gun-only or torpedo-only DD, I feel even 10% health >>> 10% extra torps or guns.

When contesting caps, whilst BFT kills enemy DD faster, SE helps you outlast him; AND his cruiser buddy in the distance; perhaps surviving to late game where you might get caps and torpedo hits.

In addition, if you want more firepower, AR is a cheap choice at 2pts that buffs guns and torpedoes. So SE is my default 3pt skill unless I have specific reasons otherwise.

Superintendent tends to be not an automatic choice, but to be something I consider after I play the DD a bit. Will I need the extra consumable often enough? Despite the Z46 having hydo, I usually have consumables spare. Whereas the Farragut or Lo Yang regularly burn through all theirs and need SI, the Fletcher very seldom does.   Most of my IJN DD spend their time unspotted, so extra smoke is worthless.

 

Also, for me anyway, I find in a DD my win rate mirrors my survival % - so I feel I'm increasing my WR by increasing my survivability. 

Edited by evilleMonkeigh
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If you can take SE, take SE. Period. It's always the very first 3 pointer to take on any DD if you enjoy not dying.

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Realistically, I take SE on all DDs T5 and up, all nations.  That said, I don't always take it as the FIRST level 3 skill. Sometimes, it comes as my 13th point.

I've taken it on my IJN DDs always as the first level 3 skill. They don't really need the consumables too much, as they should almost always be in stealth, so the extra health is much more important when they occasionally get spotted.

For the Russians, SE is a total no-brainer, as I'm almost certain I've never bothered with SI at all, generally preferring to save for IFHE

On my US DDs, I take SI first, as the extra smoke is really, really worth it for me. Same goes for the PA ones.

For my KM ones, I'm kinda torn, and it does vary a bit.  For the T5-7 KM DDs, I think I took SE first. But for the higher-tier ones, I took SI first, because they really, really needed the extra consumables.

 

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On 5/14/2018 at 9:50 AM, why_u_heff_to_be_mad said:

I'm also wondering about Gearing builds. I almost never see a gun focused build, that includes  BFT and the reloading mod, instead people help out Torpedo reload. This makes sense because Gearing has great torps, but I wonder if the ability to squeeze out torps 20 seconds faster is worth the DPM loss in a DD fight

Just realized that I neglected half of your question. :Smile_Default:

As @chewonit alluded to above, the meta in tier 10 games is far different than you see in the mid tiers--you just won't find yourself in very many toe-to-toe slugfests against another DD where having BFT is going to make a huge difference.  (Most) High tier cruiser and even battleship players are pretty good about shooting at any destroyer that pops into view, and so the deciding factor in the vast majority of DD duels is going to be how many friends each one is bringing to the fight...not rate of fire from their own guns.  The amount of radar and long-range hydro you'll see also significantly cuts down on opportunities for prolonged smoke fire, so getting off a few extra salvos before your smoke runs out isn't really a factor either.  With a base reload time of 3 seconds on Gearing guns, shaving that by 10% is really not going to make a noticeable difference anyway, even if you stack it with the reload module.  If you do see a BFT captain build on a Gearing, the skill was likely added for the AA boost rather than the increase in main gun DPM (which is a worthwhile option for something like KoTS or when playing in divisions with a carrier...but which would be taken in place of RPF rather than TAE).

Those torpedoes, however, are really good, and shaving 13.6 seconds off your reload time (and equipping the torpedo reload upgrade for a further 15% reduction) makes your ship much more dangerous in a T10 match.  In the course of a full 20-minute battle, the TAE bonus alone is going to give you one extra torpedo salvo vs. a Gearing without it.  With potential damage of 17.9k per torpedo, you're going to need a lot of additional gun hits to make up for that.  Besides which, the above-mentioned T10 meta means that the vast majority of your damage is going to come via those torpedoes, even against other DDs.

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Quote

the meta in tier 10 games is far different than you see in the mid tiers--you just won't find yourself in very many toe-to-toe slugfests against another DD where having BFT is going to make a huge difference.  (Most) High tier cruiser and even battleship players are pretty good about shooting at any destroyer that pops into view, and so the deciding factor in the vast majority of DD duels is going to be how many friends each one is bringing to the fight...not rate of fire from their own guns. 

 

Quote

The amount of radar and long-range hydro you'll see also significantly cuts down on opportunities for prolonged smoke fire, so getting off a few extra salvos before your smoke runs out isn't really a factor either.

 

Some well articulated points for SE > BFT

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On 5/14/2018 at 7:24 AM, digitaljustice said:

IMO, it's more important to stay alive than have an extra smoke or speed boost, and 1700+ extra HP can mean the difference between dying from a torp hit in a lot of cases.

SE vs SI. This comes down to which is better, being able to absorb damage and stay in the fight OR avoiding such damage in the first place. This can be situational/ship related of course. SE is great for surviving a torp hit or outlasting that red DD in a knife fight. Those extra HP can evaporate in seconds however when spotted and targeted by half the red ships. The extra smoke CAN (in a low radar environment) prevent  taking damage in the first place so having an extra smoke may be critical for some DDs playstyle (i.e. Akizuki) where there just aren't enough convenient islands (always seem to be lots of inconvenient ones though). The extra TRB can really help offensively. The extra speed boost is just a bonus. The more consumables you have, the better SI becomes.

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On 5/14/2018 at 8:50 AM, why_u_heff_to_be_mad said:

Hey

So SE is a mainstay of ranked builds for tier 8 and 10 for obvious reasons, 2800 and 3500 extra  HP is a big deal and often the margin between life and death, especially for knife fighting DDs.

I wonder how low of a tier is it worth taking though? I just put it on my Farragut for an extra  2100 HP but wonder if it's worth taking over SI, BFT, DE, each of which has a place.

I'm also wondering about Gearing builds. I almost never see a gun focused build, that includes  BFT and the reloading mod, instead people help out Torpedo reload. This makes sense because Gearing has great torps, but I wonder if the ability to squeeze out torps 20 seconds faster is worth the DPM loss in a DD fight

 

Thoughts

I haven't taken SE on anything less than T8, but that's because my <T8 ships don't have captains with enough points. I'd consider it for T7. I can't even count the games where I've ended with less than 2100 points remaining.

And I think the Gearing with the torp build is worth the DPM loss. I'm not fond of the Gearing, so I don't have a lot of games in it, but I do have a 70% win rate with the thing in spite of myself. I'm honestly not sure how I have that 70% win rate, but I do. You'll get one or two extra torp shots per game at the very least. If they're well placed shots, they're worth more than the guns.

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On 5/18/2018 at 1:58 PM, Harv72b said:

Just realized that I neglected half of your question. :Smile_Default:

As @chewonit alluded to above, the meta in tier 10 games is far different than you see in the mid tiers--you just won't find yourself in very many toe-to-toe slugfests against another DD where having BFT is going to make a huge difference.  (Most) High tier cruiser and even battleship players are pretty good about shooting at any destroyer that pops into view, and so the deciding factor in the vast majority of DD duels is going to be how many friends each one is bringing to the fight...not rate of fire from their own guns.  The amount of radar and long-range hydro you'll see also significantly cuts down on opportunities for prolonged smoke fire, so getting off a few extra salvos before your smoke runs out isn't really a factor either.  With a base reload time of 3 seconds on Gearing guns, shaving that by 10% is really not going to make a noticeable difference anyway, even if you stack it with the reload module.  If you do see a BFT captain build on a Gearing, the skill was likely added for the AA boost rather than the increase in main gun DPM (which is a worthwhile option for something like KoTS or when playing in divisions with a carrier...but which would be taken in place of RPF rather than TAE).

Those torpedoes, however, are really good, and shaving 13.6 seconds off your reload time (and equipping the torpedo reload upgrade for a further 15% reduction) makes your ship much more dangerous in a T10 match.  In the course of a full 20-minute battle, the TAE bonus alone is going to give you one extra torpedo salvo vs. a Gearing without it.  With potential damage of 17.9k per torpedo, you're going to need a lot of additional gun hits to make up for that.  Besides which, the above-mentioned T10 meta means that the vast majority of your damage is going to come via those torpedoes, even against other DDs.

Welp this convinced me, I went with BFT and a torp module for ranked but I quickly discovered Ive not the DD skills for the top bracket. Its doing well for me in randoms but if I get a respec for free Ill swtich to TAE over BFT.

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I just bought the Gallant and was shopping around my British captains for a 10-pointer or better to put on her while I considered a specific captain build. I went with my Edinburgh captain, who has PT, LS, SI, CE, SE, so the points are already spent. Gallant has a particularly low health pool, so having the extra is potentially very worthwhile.  However, my limited number of deaths so far have been massive deletions and it wouldn't have helped; more experience is required.

Once I receive word on exactly when British destroyers are coming (hints say late this year), I will start developing captains for them. 

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On 5/14/2018 at 9:50 AM, why_u_heff_to_be_mad said:

I wonder how low of a tier is it worth taking though? I just put it on my Farragut for an extra  2100 HP but wonder if it's worth taking over SI, BFT, DE, each of which has a place.

Have you looked at how many times you have been below 2100 HP? Those are times, if you have SE at T6, that SI, BFT, or DE would be useless. You would already be dead. 

When I think of the games that I have really had an impact in after dropping below 2K, it is really hard for me to not take SE as my first 3 point skill. 

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