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FATEdPondera

Need help with CVs

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Since the last time I posted here, I practiced a good bit and my gunnery has, overall, gotten better. I can reliably strike and do damage to distant targets unknowingly presenting me a broadside, and even my DD play has improved to some degree. But there is one ship class that eludes me....

 

What the hell is the deal with carriers? No, seriously. Outcomes of fighter duels seems completely random. I just had a match where a guy with 2 fighters shredded both torpedo bomber squads, my fighter squad, and 2 dive bombers, while I kept them dancing over a pair of phoenixes. The last one took place while he was just hanging out over my carrier and they just WOULD. NOT. DIE. Dude tells me not to whine when my team is winning, but I think it's justified given that he completely removed my ability to do anything whatsoever in that match, and I have no idea how he did it. WITH HALF A SQUAD!!!

We were both in Zuiho's, so I wasn't falling victim to US fighter superiority (despite the fact that, for its era, the Mitsubishi A6M Zero was one of the best in the world by a pretty far margin. The US didn't start to catch up for some years after), nor was I being destroyed by strafing (which cannot be done at this tier. Thanks, WG...that really fixed EVERYTHING). I'm running the Air Groups Modification 2 for 20% more fighter HP, and my captain skills are aircraft servicing expert, torpedo acceleration, and torpedo armament expertise. The only other things I can think of that would spell my demise like this is if he had air superiority and I didn't. Even Dogfighting Expert wouldn't have done anything because we were the exact same tier. All that it would do is give his fighters more ammo which, since we cannot strafe, they often don't live long enough to expend all of it anyway.

So, I reiterate, what's the deal here? What am I doing wrong? Without strafe fire, does it all just come down to luck? Do Phoenix just have crappy AA and I shouldn't rely on them? How can I avoid this being done to me in the future? If they haven't expended their payload, my bombers have no hope of escaping that pissed off swarm of bees, and sometimes not even then. If they get close, it's over...

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5 minutes ago, FATEdPondera said:

Since the last time I posted here, I practiced a good bit and my gunnery has, overall, gotten better. I can reliably strike and do damage to distant targets unknowingly presenting me a broadside, and even my DD play has improved to some degree. But there is one ship class that eludes me....

 

What the hell is the deal with carriers? No, seriously. Outcomes of fighter duels seems completely random. I just had a match where a guy with 2 fighters shredded both torpedo bomber squads, my fighter squad, and 2 dive bombers, while I kept them dancing over a pair of phoenixes. The last one took place while he was just hanging out over my carrier and they just WOULD. NOT. DIE. Dude tells me not to whine when my team is winning, but I think it's justified given that he completely removed my ability to do anything whatsoever in that match, and I have no idea how he did it. WITH HALF A SQUAD!!!

We were both in Zuiho's, so I wasn't falling victim to US fighter superiority (despite the fact that, for its era, the Mitsubishi A6M Zero was one of the best in the world by a pretty far margin. The US didn't start to catch up for some years after), nor was I being destroyed by strafing (which cannot be done at this tier. Thanks, WG...that really fixed EVERYTHING). I'm running the Air Groups Modification 2 for 20% more fighter HP, and my captain skills are aircraft servicing expert, torpedo acceleration, and torpedo armament expertise. The only other things I can think of that would spell my demise like this is if he had air superiority and I didn't. Even Dogfighting Expert wouldn't have done anything because we were the exact same tier. All that it would do is give his fighters more ammo which, since we cannot strafe, they often don't live long enough to expend all of it anyway.

So, I reiterate, what's the deal here? What am I doing wrong? Without strafe fire, does it all just come down to luck? Do Phoenix just have crappy AA and I shouldn't rely on them? How can I avoid this being done to me in the future? If they haven't expended their payload, my bombers have no hope of escaping that pissed off swarm of bees, and sometimes not even then. If they get close, it's over...

Yes, at that tier, it's all luck. Only when strafe enters the equation does skill really matter. Just try to avoid fighters, and don't really on any low tier (below 6) AA to win you fighter duels. Use cross drops, and learn ALT attacks as fast as you can (the second you hit tier 6 start using them exclusively)

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Almost everything tier 5 and below has terrible AA that offers almost no help. The weakness of the AA is why manual attacks were removed. Sometimes the rng nature of dogfights is mind boggling. But out of curiosity, are you saying that one squadron with 2 planes left shot down 8 torpedo bombers, 8 dive bombers, and 4 fighters? Because the luck of not losing 2 planes in all of that aside, I don't know that there's enough ammo to do all of that.

Now, if it was two fighter squadrons, then I assume you're in a 4 CV game and those two squadrons belong to a Ryujo, that can strafe. At which point, you are completely screwed as a t5 CV.

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" But out of curiosity, are you saying that one squadron with 2 planes left shot down 8 torpedo bombers, 8 dive bombers, and 4 fighters? Because the luck of not losing 2 planes in all of that aside "

 

That is absolutely what I'm saying. He started with a full squadron of fighters, and lost 2 when I engaged him with my own over a phoenix cruiser. Tried to keep doing my job and probably should have moved off to the other side of the map to pick off targets there, but after dropping off their payload, I moved my bombers back to the fleet. Three seperate ships, the same phoenix and two BBs, were shooting at him but he managed to cut down that squad without losses. He zipped across when I tried to torp a lone battleship, and by that point, I just didn't care anymore and half-heartedly sent my torpers back to the carrier and pretty much knew they weren't gonna make it. They didn't. Found out I had 2 more dive bombers as his fighters located my carrier and even with me shooting at him, those two brave little fighters just wouldn't bloody die. I can only assume they were being piloted by Han Solo and Rambo, respectively.

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Pretty sure air sup. Only gives an extra plane in wing. So that doesnt account for the 2 "super planes"

November echo S flag? Dont think it would make that much difference, but its a possibility.

Other than that i can say rng screwed you.

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You are in for a world of RNG in the carrier.  Some people have touched on various things here but I will try to combine everything for you.

1.  All AA is RNG based.  Fighter planes, bomber tail gunners, ship based AA guns, it's all dice rolls.  The DPS listed for the AA gun is compared to the HP of the fighters and some dice roll to determine if a plane is lost.
2.  Low tier ship AA is awful.  Some ships have no AA, some ships have single digit AA values, some ships have acceptable AA.  That Phoenix with a 10 point AA captain and it's C Hull would have 42 AA DPS, which is less than your squad of fighters.  A few of the tech tree BBs have acceptable DPS.  The Ishizuchi, and Imperator Nikolai I have abysmal AA so don't plan on them helping.
3.  Planes have tiers.  The skill Dogfighting Expert is based off of the tier of the planes not the carrier they are launched from.  A stock Zuhio has Mitsubishi A5M4 fighters which are Tier 5.  The upgraded fighters are Mitsubishi A6M2 and they are Tier 6.  There are actually quite a few differences between those two planes.

Spoiler

image.thumb.png.581cf12a321f5bf57bf162596cbd143a.png

Here is a video by Ichase that demonstrates the wide ranging RNG in fighter fights.  Don't give up on CVs, we need competent carrier captains(especially on my team).  Good luck out there!

 

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Likely some serious oof-ing by RNG, I suggest finding a better AA ship to fight over, such as a Yubari, Orion, Texas, Kongo, Konig, and maybe Nicholas. Good luck learning CVs, seems like you know a lot for 400ish battles, see you on the battlefield. 

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1x1 fighters engage with no ships close: Full RNG (its s*cks we know)

strafe: Make the differece how hits first and betters.

AA from closes ships: Influencie in how win how loses, always try bring the fighter fight to close friendly AA, even a bad one is better then nothing, but try bring to heavy AA cruisers like usn and uk line, or bbs like gnesinau, bayern (with aa focus), iowa, montana, etc.

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It's not RNG.  It's not air superiority.  I have all the skills on my Langley and no matter what, regardless of being over my own fleet or even over my own ship, regardless of me being in a USN and fighting a Hosho, the enemy wins every dogfight.  I know how to strafe.  I am skilled at dropping torps.  I have no chance in dogfights, ever.  If you want CV players you need to fix this.

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On 5/11/2018 at 2:52 PM, FATEdPondera said:

Since the last time I posted here, I practiced a good bit and my gunnery has, overall, gotten better. I can reliably strike and do damage to distant targets unknowingly presenting me a broadside, and even my DD play has improved to some degree. But there is one ship class that eludes me....

 

What the hell is the deal with carriers? No, seriously. Outcomes of fighter duels seems completely random. I just had a match where a guy with 2 fighters shredded both torpedo bomber squads, my fighter squad, and 2 dive bombers, while I kept them dancing over a pair of phoenixes. The last one took place while he was just hanging out over my carrier and they just WOULD. NOT. DIE. Dude tells me not to whine when my team is winning, but I think it's justified given that he completely removed my ability to do anything whatsoever in that match, and I have no idea how he did it. WITH HALF A SQUAD!!!

We were both in Zuiho's, so I wasn't falling victim to US fighter superiority (despite the fact that, for its era, the Mitsubishi A6M Zero was one of the best in the world by a pretty far margin. The US didn't start to catch up for some years after), nor was I being destroyed by strafing (which cannot be done at this tier. Thanks, WG...that really fixed EVERYTHING). I'm running the Air Groups Modification 2 for 20% more fighter HP, and my captain skills are aircraft servicing expert, torpedo acceleration, and torpedo armament expertise. The only other things I can think of that would spell my demise like this is if he had air superiority and I didn't. Even Dogfighting Expert wouldn't have done anything because we were the exact same tier. All that it would do is give his fighters more ammo which, since we cannot strafe, they often don't live long enough to expend all of it anyway.

So, I reiterate, what's the deal here? What am I doing wrong? Without strafe fire, does it all just come down to luck? Do Phoenix just have crappy AA and I shouldn't rely on them? How can I avoid this being done to me in the future? If they haven't expended their payload, my bombers have no hope of escaping that pissed off swarm of bees, and sometimes not even then. If they get close, it's over...

I would recommend looking at Femennenly's channel on Twitch. She has lots of videos on CVs. Her main type of ship she plays with are CVs and that is the kind of ship she mostly uses in her stream.

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On 5/11/2018 at 2:52 PM, FATEdPondera said:

Since the last time I posted here, I practiced a good bit and my gunnery has, overall, gotten better. I can reliably strike and do damage to distant targets unknowingly presenting me a broadside, and even my DD play has improved to some degree. But there is one ship class that eludes me....

 

What the hell is the deal with carriers? No, seriously. Outcomes of fighter duels seems completely random. I just had a match where a guy with 2 fighters shredded both torpedo bomber squads, my fighter squad, and 2 dive bombers, while I kept them dancing over a pair of phoenixes. The last one took place while he was just hanging out over my carrier and they just WOULD. NOT. DIE. Dude tells me not to whine when my team is winning, but I think it's justified given that he completely removed my ability to do anything whatsoever in that match, and I have no idea how he did it. WITH HALF A SQUAD!!!

We were both in Zuiho's, so I wasn't falling victim to US fighter superiority (despite the fact that, for its era, the Mitsubishi A6M Zero was one of the best in the world by a pretty far margin. The US didn't start to catch up for some years after), nor was I being destroyed by strafing (which cannot be done at this tier. Thanks, WG...that really fixed EVERYTHING). I'm running the Air Groups Modification 2 for 20% more fighter HP, and my captain skills are aircraft servicing expert, torpedo acceleration, and torpedo armament expertise. The only other things I can think of that would spell my demise like this is if he had air superiority and I didn't. Even Dogfighting Expert wouldn't have done anything because we were the exact same tier. All that it would do is give his fighters more ammo which, since we cannot strafe, they often don't live long enough to expend all of it anyway.

So, I reiterate, what's the deal here? What am I doing wrong? Without strafe fire, does it all just come down to luck? Do Phoenix just have crappy AA and I shouldn't rely on them? How can I avoid this being done to me in the future? If they haven't expended their payload, my bombers have no hope of escaping that pissed off swarm of bees, and sometimes not even then. If they get close, it's over...

It's usually not recommended, but I've found that when things go really bad like this, having Expert Rear Gunner with Evasive Maneuvers helps.

The airspeed reduction means that yes, the bombers take more AA DPS rolls and they do have an airspeed penalty, but it also buys them enough time to roll their own DPS against fighters if you're facing auto fighters and the HP bonus prevents them from losing too much HP from ship AA. I've taken down half strength fighter squads this way using only a full complement (but partially damaged from AA) HE bomber squad. 175% HP can at least make it expensive for them to attack your bombers while you get your own fighters in play.

If your bombers are facing strafe fighters it really doesn't matter what their airspeed is since no bombers can outrun fighters. Rear Gunner and Evasive Maneuvers also doesn't matter because strafe completely annihilates the squads in the path anyway.

> seems completely random

Do you use your fighters to scout?

If you do, then you usually end up chipping away your planes' HP. While it might not be enough to actually down a plane, it could reduce their HP pools by significant amounts, and AA DPS is rolled PER PLANE. What this means is that if you use your fighters to scout and then end up in a dogfight (specifically, an auto dogfight and not a strafe one) against a fresh, undamaged fighter squad, you have a much greater chance of losing.

If your scouts spent a lot of time in AA bubbles, they could end up with very low HP, which means that they last far less time in a dogfight.

Use HE bombers to scout instead. When you get up to Tier VI where you can strafe, then you can use your fighters to scout again. Just keep in mind that AA still rolls per plane, and a player may engage your fighters in an auto dogfight where that may end up screwing you over.

> both torp bombers squad and 2 dive bombers

Without Expert Rear Gunner or Evasive Maneuvers, defensive fire from bomber squads is a joke when pursued.

> phoenixs

The Phoenix has incredibly bad AA values and it wouldn't get any better if specced for AA.

Edited by NATOMarksman

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