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Decline of BB support role. Why?

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What are the contributing factors to the decline in BB play where more and more BB players consistently:

1) stay too far back for too long or all game, or

2) run away, or

3) sail behind and/or hide behind islands, or

4) fail to support caps, cruisers or DDs, or 

5) fail to support any game objective that contributes to winning?

 

BBs do this with DD spotting ahead.  BBs do this with CV spotting ahead.  BBs do this with CA spotting ahead.  BBs do this when all enemy ships are spotted.  

 

I see more and more of this the past few months and don't get it.

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The more crappy camping BBs there are, the better I am and the more I get to yell at people. Its a win-win

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It's because the enemy DDs are definitely not spotted so there's going to be torps coming from who knows where towards your huge slow ship. Because cruiser gameplay means cruisers can cover behind islands and fire over and onto your huge slow ship. And the enemy BBs who didn't sail in to be nearby support have you conveniently spotted by their team and can add their own long range fire onto your huge slow ship.

 

Now don't get me wrong, as a BB main I typically like to play aggressively and be right near the cap but far more often than not I'm severely punished for it by h factors I just mentioned. In random you can't rely on any other person to do things that don't just immediately benefit themselves. That doesn't mean no one does, but you should never expect it. Because of this and because of the frustration of playing team objectives without teamwork players revert to a style of play that at the very least can feel enjoyable at times. 

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I honestly believe that many old school players are tired of all the gimmicks and I win buttons and are just not playing as much. If the old veterans aren't playing as much many of the BBs you see in games are  the new crop of players and don't have the complete feel of the game.

It seems to me that the most players are very conservative until they have a few 1000 battles in and most of your players anymore are newer players.

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Hey

I think it comes down to people being selfish and a general lack of maturity; it's all about me farming damage, I don't care if my team loses as long as my numbers are good.  Some people don't get the concept of playing the objective and aiding your team.  The game has gotten significantly worse in the last year with all of the BB camping, the higher the tier the worse the problem is.

 

Pete

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It's pretty [edited] really. This is happening pretty regularly in ranked right now. There is at least one BB who sits in the back farming dmg then at the end of the match he is nearly full health with heals left going up against 3 or 4 boats alone, ultimately he dies and we lose the match...the worst part, because of his dmg farming he gets the XP to not lose a star. So basically the team loses because he failed to tank and support CLs but it doesn't matter to him because he doesn't lose his star...Wargaiming rewarding crapgame play once again.

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Im not sure how things were more recently as i have not played in two years. But even back before the game was released people were complaining about battleships being blue line riders. Maybe i missed a golden age in my absence.

As far as ranked, my understanding of the mechanics is that the optimal methodology for advancing in ranked is to ensure you are the top of your team no matter what. This means the primary objective for ranked is not winning, but topping your team. If you do that consistently you will progress when your team happens to win and not regress when they happen to lose. So ranked is about fighting your team, not the enemy team. Until this is fixed i dont see a reason to take it seriously.

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23 hours ago, Elysion said:

Im not sure how things were more recently as i have not played in two years. But even back before the game was released people were complaining about battleships being blue line riders. Maybe i missed a golden age in my absence.

As far as ranked, my understanding of the mechanics is that the optimal methodology for advancing in ranked is to ensure you are the top of your team no matter what. This means the primary objective for ranked is not winning, but topping your team. If you do that consistently you will progress when your team happens to win and not regress when they happen to lose. So ranked is about fighting your team, not the enemy team. Until this is fixed i dont see a reason to take it seriously.

I remember the time of the border humpers. Thank god they added the severe speed penalties to ships that keep sailing at the border, made it nearly impossible to aim at em when they were sliding at a weird angle. And then there was the bow tank meta where you would see tier 9s and 10s just sitting in one spot bow on sniping from 20km away.  It was so bad for a while that Montana was considered directly inferior to Iowa simply because Iowa was smaller, saw fewer Yamatos than Montana and had the same forward firepower as Montana. That seems to have died down some as well, which is good to.

 

Now if only we could get more cvs in game to make bbs actually want to stick with their cruisers, and maybe encourage a few cruisers to actually use defencive aa.

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On 5/10/2018 at 10:25 PM, smf117 said:

It's pretty [edited] really. This is happening pretty regularly in ranked right now. There is at least one BB who sits in the back farming dmg then at the end of the match he is nearly full health with heals left going up against 3 or 4 boats alone, ultimately he dies and we lose the match...the worst part, because of his dmg farming he gets the XP to not lose a star. So basically the team loses because he failed to tank and support CLs but it doesn't matter to him because he doesn't lose his star...Wargaiming rewarding crapgame play once again.

Having now played the weekend, I can be more blunt and say BBs more than not fundamentally do not understand how a TEAM win works, and consistently have no idea how (or don't care) to play game objectives or provide support.  They are consistently awful more than not, but since they can farm damage on a losing team I presume, if they even care about their team winning, that they think they're playing right.  They're not, and the team loses because of it.  It's game after game after game now.

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Because MOST bb's are often the newbies to the game (most tend to advance bb line before any other especially USN BB's)

Therefore they don't understand the concept of pushing and supporting

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14 minutes ago, JessieTheKitty said:

Because MOST bb's are often the newbies to the game (most tend to advance bb line before any other especially USN BB's)

Therefore they don't understand the concept of pushing and supporting

I play DDs and CAs mostly at T5-T10.  It's all all tiers.

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Something that I've encountered time and time again whenever I play BB's is that whenever the first sign of trouble appears; the ships that were with me tend to turn tail and run. This is especially problematic for the US standard Super-Dreadnoughts who can't make over 25kts. Other times there could be a presence of an enemy DD that can cause many inexperienced BB players to become far more passive and as a result play directly into their foes plans. 

The biggest issue that I've found is absolutely no coordination between the players on the team; even if and other players make a plan to ignore one cap for the other two; there will always be that one player who goes for the cap with no support and get's nuked. Queve in said players rage in the chat and calling the team "a bunch of noobs".  

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Seems to be a lot of angst towards BBs, but the complaints about BB players being selfish can just as easily be said about some CA, CL, CV, and DD players as well. I've seen just as much selfish play from some carrier, cruiser, and destroyer players as I have some BBs in all the battle modes. 

As far as an answer to the OP's question, I think it comes down to the fact that there are some BB players that used to tank and push with the team, but when the shooting started, their teammates abandoned them, leaving them to be focused fired on. Now, I don't mind being shot at and using the large HP pool of a BB to tank for my team, but it is frustrating to play match after match where you do that as the cruisers and DDs scatter and just watch you get pounded to death as they hide; so, I can see why some BB captains have just gotten fed up and decided to sit at max range and snipe.

I also think that @Prothall also gave another reason, new players not knowing how to play BBs. It takes experience to know when to push and how to disengage in a BB. Even then, if the enemy is staying in a group and working together and your team is not, that increases the difficulty factor of doing so by 10.

A BB still needs support as much as a DD or a cruiser. A lone BB is usually and shortly a dead BB.

So the best answer is likely newer BB players and lack of teamwork.

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5 hours ago, daVinci761st said:

Seems to be a lot of angst towards BBs, but the complaints about BB players being selfish can just as easily be said about some CA, CL, CV, and DD players as well. I've seen just as much selfish play from some carrier, cruiser, and destroyer players as I have some BBs in all the battle modes. 

As far as an answer to the OP's question, I think it comes down to the fact that there are some BB players that used to tank and push with the team, but when the shooting started, their teammates abandoned them, leaving them to be focused fired on. Now, I don't mind being shot at and using the large HP pool of a BB to tank for my team, but it is frustrating to play match after match where you do that as the cruisers and DDs scatter and just watch you get pounded to death as they hide; so, I can see why some BB captains have just gotten fed up and decided to sit at max range and snipe.

I also think that @Prothall also gave another reason, new players not knowing how to play BBs. It takes experience to know when to push and how to disengage in a BB. Even then, if the enemy is staying in a group and working together and your team is not, that increases the difficulty factor of doing so by 10.

A BB still needs support as much as a DD or a cruiser. A lone BB is usually and shortly a dead BB.

So the best answer is likely newer BB players and lack of teamwork.

BBs take the least amount of skill to play to farm damage.  BBs are the most expensive ships to play, more often resulting in premium (i.e. paid) accounts.  BBs players never learn to play the team game but can farm damage because that's how WOW rewards their cash cow.  But, it hurts the game.

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8 hours ago, nhf said:

I play DDs and CAs mostly at T5-T10.  It's all all tiers.

and? it only takes 700ish battles without premium to get to t1 to t10. you need roughly 2k-4k battles to start to understand what ships stats are and how to counter

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On ‎5‎/‎11‎/‎2018 at 5:43 PM, Elysion said:

Im not sure how things were more recently as i have not played in two years. But even back before the game was released people were complaining about battleships being blue line riders. Maybe i missed a golden age in my absence.

As far as ranked, my understanding of the mechanics is that the optimal methodology for advancing in ranked is to ensure you are the top of your team no matter what. This means the primary objective for ranked is not winning, but topping your team. If you do that consistently you will progress when your team happens to win and not regress when they happen to lose. So ranked is about fighting your team, not the enemy team. Until this is fixed i dont see a reason to take it seriously.

You are right, complaints about passive BB play go all the way back to Beta.  Nothing has changed, only the supposed reasons why

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13 hours ago, daVinci761st said:

Seems to be a lot of angst towards BBs, but the complaints about BB players being selfish can just as easily be said about some CA, CL, CV, and DD players as well. I've seen just as much selfish play from some carrier, cruiser, and destroyer players as I have some BBs in all the battle modes. 

As far as an answer to the OP's question, I think it comes down to the fact that there are some BB players that used to tank and push with the team, but when the shooting started, their teammates abandoned them, leaving them to be focused fired on. Now, I don't mind being shot at and using the large HP pool of a BB to tank for my team, but it is frustrating to play match after match where you do that as the cruisers and DDs scatter and just watch you get pounded to death as they hide; so, I can see why some BB captains have just gotten fed up and decided to sit at max range and snipe.

I also think that @Prothall also gave another reason, new players not knowing how to play BBs. It takes experience to know when to push and how to disengage in a BB. Even then, if the enemy is staying in a group and working together and your team is not, that increases the difficulty factor of doing so by 10.

A BB still needs support as much as a DD or a cruiser. A lone BB is usually and shortly a dead BB.

So the best answer is likely newer BB players and lack of teamwork.

I agree with this , even though I still don't sit in the back and snipe , I'm more cautious than I used to be . I've been abandoned on pushes time after time by all classes of ship . It gets old after awhile  .

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2 hours ago, nhf said:

BBs take the least amount of skill to play to farm damage.  BBs are the most expensive ships to play, more often resulting in premium (i.e. paid) accounts.  BBs players never learn to play the team game but can farm damage because that's how WOW rewards their cash cow.  But, it hurts the game.

 

 

I have to disagree about BB players never learning to play the team game. Anybody who has played WoWs long enough has seen selfish players in the other ship classes as well. Random matches are filled with selfish players in all classes of ships who have no concept or are not willing to work as a team, which carries over to ranked, and you see it sometimes in PvE play as well in Co-Op and Operations. The DD players who ignore the caps and spotting the enemy to go around the map to chase down a CV or a lone BB. The cruiser players who refuse to screen for enemy DDs or support their friendly DDs. And so on, and so on.

I do agree with you about damage, though, and I agree that does contribute to the problem of bad BB play. WG increased the rewards for capping, spotting, and potential damage, but I think they need to increase the rewards for spotting and potential damage more. The latter might reel in some of the BBs who snipe at maximum range and encourage those players to draw fire and tank with their HP pool for the team.

 

28 minutes ago, retic1959 said:

I agree with this , even though I still don't sit in the back and snipe , I'm more cautious than I used to be . I've been abandoned on pushes time after time by all classes of ship . It gets old after awhile  .

Aye. I probably should be more cautious, but I still play my BB's pretty aggressively. I feel like if I'm not getting shot at by the enemy and tanking for my team as I deal damage that I'm not doing a good job. I like to see how much potential damage I can rack up in a game.

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1 hour ago, retic1959 said:

I agree with this , even though I still don't sit in the back and snipe , I'm more cautious than I used to be . I've been abandoned on pushes time after time by all classes of ship . It gets old after awhile  .

If you stay 6-7km behind your cruisers AND watch the map, unless you box yourself in by islands, you will have time to stop or turn away, and you'll have torp screening.  Most BBs camp and/or farm damage the first 10 minutes of the game, and that's become the BB meta.  If I play 5 games 1 game may have BBs who support, the other 4 games BBs will camp.  I know the BB camping percentage is far more than BBs who get "abandoned".  Those BBs who do "push" tend to get so focused on getting their damage points they don't watch the map.  Most BBs simply don't know how to push correctly because they haven't learned to play a support role on a team. 

Edited by nhf
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6 hours ago, nhf said:

If you stay 6-7km behind your cruisers AND watch the map, unless you box yourself in by islands, you will have time to stop or turn away, and you'll have torp screening.  Most BBs camp and/or farm damage the first 10 minutes of the game, and that's become the BB meta.  If I play 5 games 1 game may have BBs who support, the other 4 games BBs will camp.  I know the BB camping percentage is far more than BBs who get "abandoned".  Those BBs who do "push" tend to get so focused on getting their damage points they don't watch the map.  Most BBs simply don't know how to push correctly because they haven't learned to play a support role on a team. 

Last game in my Bama in ranked , two BB's and a Ca turned tail and ran abandoning me in the push . I sat behind an island in the cap , far enough back to cover both sides and deny the cap to 3 red BB's , every time they nosed around the island  I fired on them .  A Cl finally moved up to support me . We won the game , I did 28k damage , but tanked over 150 k damage and i got Dreadnaught  . Players on both teams were cowards , they should have pincered me but they were afraid of getting shot at . I try to play to my ships strengths , there are things i can get away with in my Tirpitz that would get me killed in the Bama ,  I play accordingly .

Edited by retic1959

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Battleships struggle to remove themselves from a situation if it goes poorly thanks to their high detection ranges. Now I know that if they pushed up the situation would go south a lot less but that's the "logic" most people go by.

Edited by Chimera2

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3 hours ago, Chimera2 said:

Battleships struggle to remove themselves from a situation if it goes poorly thanks to their high detection ranges. Now I know that if they pushed up the situation would go south a lot less but that's the "logic" most people go by.

Many high-tier battleships have concealment that rivals (or even beats) cruisers. Their relative inability to disengage is far more the result of comparatively sluggish handling and large size, which makes it difficult to WASD hax your way out if you mistime a push and get focused. Most guys don't like getting spammed with HE by half the enemy team, especially from multiple directions, and aren't willing to put themselves in the position where they think they're likely to have to bug out and go defensive. They simply adopt a passive posture to begin with and never change it, regardless of the situation.

--Helms

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Cruiser mains trying to play BB's, they think you just sit behind an island and throw HE at everything that moves.

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On 5/11/2018 at 7:43 PM, Elysion said:

Im not sure how things were more recently as i have not played in two years. But even back before the game was released people were complaining about battleships being blue line riders. Maybe i missed a golden age in my absence.

As far as ranked, my understanding of the mechanics is that the optimal methodology for advancing in ranked is to ensure you are the top of your team no matter what. This means the primary objective for ranked is not winning, but topping your team. If you do that consistently you will progress when your team happens to win and not regress when they happen to lose. So ranked is about fighting your team, not the enemy team. Until this is fixed i dont see a reason to take it seriously.

whoa there you are back!   

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As far as random battles are concerned, I think it's a mix of several things. While a lot does depend on time spent playing BBs, I have noticed that a fair number of BB captains don't know how to time their push, or even where. Their mis-timing often gets them blapped fairly early on, or they suffer a slow painful death by HE spam, so it conditions them to stay further back and plink. Worse, when they do manage to time their pushes right, the first time that push encounters resistance, that BB's support runs for the hills and leaves them out to dry and die. It's not just exclusive to BBs, but whenever those that are brave enough to make the push only ever get passive support from their team, they feel less inclined to do anything and be passive themselves. BBs just happen to suffer the worst of it due to their inability to hide or retreat effectively.

 

Teamwork with randoms is also becoming a rare thing nowadays, it seems. Every now and again I'll be blessed with a team that coordinates, is cordial, and actually has fun with it. But more times than not I observe a lot of A) Armchair commanders who scream at everyone with worthless tactics and lingo, or B) a lot of selfish players who would rather chase down a single target for the XP than turn and fight the flanking enemy knocking down their door. "After all, what good is teamwork when I won't get more points for it?" is what I imagine some people saying sometimes.

 

Ranked? I can imagine the toxicity and passiveness being worse over there. I haven't played any this season, but I can well imagine the horror.

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