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Beneej_Spoor

Should We Delete Ranked- iEarlGrey (An Overly Elaborate Reply)

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This is my comment from his video.

It's an overly lengthy reply, but I feel it may be worth putting up for further scrutiny. No point in complaining or so unless I were willing to confront my faults or poor reasoning.

1:00 Tier X was in seasons 1 to 5, the only season which I could start partaking seriously, (and got to Rank 1) was Season 6. I'm not sure why folks do not recall seasons 1 through 5.

1:40 No, I would not say it's too much Britishness. I cannot pretend I have not been salty or insulting at times, though people imagine the saltiest folks are the unskilled players. I would say as Vulgarr points out, it's endemic to the game, and it's frustrating. So no, one should not delete Ranked, it's not the source of the problem.

For my Master's degree I actually did projects for a professor who did research on psychology and gaming, Warships is a perfect example of how to frustrate a player to no end. As it turns out "Agency" or a sense of control, is what helps dictate almost every time whether or not a player will be angry at a win or loss. A lot  of what goes into the game (ranked or otherwise) feels out of your hands, and that makes a lot of people upset often.

2:00 "Absence makes the heart grow fonder". You've hit the nail on the head, but that's a common multiplayer or F2P game design tactic to hook players on the game. That and dailys, which Wargaming has no monopoly on, but it plays right to what you're describing here.

2:35 Strange way to frame that question. I'll begin saying, Ranked 6 made me angrier at silly play by itself, but what really "Tainted" my opinion of the game was what some Contributors and design choices made in the transition from 6.0 to 7.0, namely smoke, removal of stealth fire, removal of manual strafe from lower Tier CVs, increased BB dispersion, and removal of Tier Vs from Co-op Operations.

What came was a toxicity aimed at "potatoes" oddly, myself included, blaming poor game design decisions on "Appealing to the casuals", meanwhile the good decisions were "Ah clearly to make the game more competitive and worked out well".  It struck me as absurd, and one needs to look no further than specific comments about smoke made by Notser or competitiveness from other CCs to see that this toxicity, blamining the casuals for the game design decisions is silly; because it's simply not true.

4:00 Again with this "Britishness". I do not feel it's British as a customer to point out a poor game design choice as a customer. Perhaps you feel it's improper or impolite to do so, but we're all ultimately customers of their product and offer feedback on it. Maps could be improved in design and more maps can be included in rotation. Fair cop sir.

4:56 "Constructive criticsm". I find that term loaded or at least has lost it's meaining as of late, but I hope I've offered it as best I can. I cannot claim it's entirely constructive, but even if not, I think ta this point any critique of the game is warranted.

5:22 "Positives . . .  just a shill". I've actually used that term before, and it's not Corporate Shillish or Corporate Stooge-ery to point out positives. For instance, the restructuring of Captain Skills into the 4 groups is very good I find, though now current meta it feels Priority Target is mandatory for the amount of information it provides. When it crosses over to being a shill is when the person noting the positive refuses to adapt or accept the criticism of said positive point, or to note that the positive they're mentioning doesn't exist (I.E. Zoup stating "Not enough data on the Conqueror" or "Conqueror is simply not Overpowered")

As for more positives, it has no chief competitor at all, so that helps in drawing an audience. The graphics look really good especially after the 6.9 improvements I believe? The game is still a vicersal and satisfying experience if you have the upperhand in most cases and feel like you're in control. Radar and Sonar among more ships helps give players agency back and while DD or Cruiser mains may hate it, I find it positive to have improved spotting, helps people get aggressive at times to flush positions out.

I hope to see more from you soon. I hope you pin this comment to show despote how I may be rude, or swear, or blow up at other folks, it's not because I'm ignorant or becuase I'm bad at the game. I have an elaborate and well-thought out position, but it's so frustrating to try to break it down; much less over multiple times, simply to be told "Well you don't know what you're talking about", or "You're just a potato, quit complaining".

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Rank is overly Grindy. 

Rank is a toxic soup 75% of the time. 

Rank largely depends on 6 other people having their ship together. 

Rank is frustration. 

Rank will always be Rank because people keep playing it so WG doesn't feel the need to change it. 

If I can get Rank 1 this season I'll have the Black and I won't care any more. 

If Rank went the way of Team Battles I would be ok with that. 

If Rank rewarded a player despite the Win or Lose it wouldn't be half bad. 

Abandon all Hope Ye who sail the Rank Sea. 

This isn't madness, This Is Rank. 

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9 minutes ago, RedSeaBear said:

Rank is overly Grindy. 

Rank is a toxic soup 75% of the time. 

Rank largely depends on 6 other people having their ship together. 

Rank is frustration. 

Rank will always be Rank because people keep playing it so WG doesn't feel the need to change it. 

If I can get Rank 1 this season I'll have the Black and I won't care any more. 

If Rank went the way of Team Battles I would be ok with that. 

If Rank rewarded a player despite the Win or Lose it wouldn't be half bad. 

Abandon all Hope Ye who sail the Rank Sea. 

This isn't madness, This Is Rank. 

:Smile_great:

 

My heart hasn't been in Ranked for the past few seasons. I'd have the Black by now, but I haven't had the heart to fight through just to get the Flint.

I'll try it out, but at heart I just don't finish up. I can deal with pretty much everything about ranked, but I'm just so very tired of having to carry. In fact, I'm just burn out for "only" that particular reason.

I can't find any fun when I'm the only one taking it seriously.

Edited by Wulfgarn
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Why even give a separate game mode? No one plays with players of high-ish skill level... It's all just for an ego inflating number and a flag.

Could be done through randoms. Make players who want to participate opt into it, and then run the rank off of average performance in ships of that ranked tier played. Solves both the problem of queue times at higher ranks, and too few players in randoms at specific tiers during ranked seasons.

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Delete it?  No.  I don't much care for it, so I don't participate much.  Just because I don't like something doesn't mean it should be removed.  A lot of folks /do/ like it.  I'd like to see certain changes made, which I think would make me enjoy it more, but meh.  Whatever.

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32 minutes ago, Wulfgarn said:

:Smile_great:

 

My heart hasn't been in Ranked for the past few seasons. I'd have the Black by now, but I haven't had the heart to fight through just to get the Flint.

I'll try it out, but at heart I just don't finish up. I can deal with pretty much everything about ranked, but I'm just so very tired of having to carry. In fact, I'm just burn out for "only" that particular reason.

I can't find any fun when I'm the only one taking it seriously.

Tired is how I feel with Rank. I'm tired of destroyers sailing into radar or torps and dying. I'm tired of battleships camping in the back not supporting their team. I'm tired of the cruisers who don't know they have a citadel. I'm tired of players not sticking together and working for the win. I'm tired of one good teams efforts being undone by the next batch of window licking mouth bringing troglodytes. I'm Tired of players who get toxic because you're not playing like they want you. I'm tired of the damage farmer who saves their star but doesn't help the team win. I'm tired of trying to hold a team back from rushing into defeat when the game is almost won. 

 I've Ranked out 4 seasons in a row and the USS Black is the only thing keeping me going at this point. I enjoy the Flint I earned and the Fletcher is one of my favorite DDs. So I really want to keep at it till I get the Black. If/When WG gives the option of earning these prizes ships by way of getting Coal or Steel than why play Rank.  

I wish Rank was more like the Pearl event or the Clash of the Elements event, where you earn things by being good at the game. And you don't get screwed because your team sucked.

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I’m not frustrated by rank at all..I actually enjoy ranked battles because of the uptick in team play, but ......

I can only do so much, like 30 games or so spread out over a week, I now  play for the reward flags, have not the time nor the enthusiasm to grind out to rank 1

that's my story and I’m sticking to it

9FA80638-1F6F-4A86-A52C-3D2A16ABFAD9.jpeg

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I think Gray's commentary was mild, I think most of the comments in the board is going to be more toxic then his commentary. On the Maps, yeah I mean there is not that much of maps. The positioning of the caps in the maps has improved from the last season.  So far, gray assumed at tier X some NOOB plays would've played off by then. That did not happen, No matter how hard the developers try and make players play there game as intended,  players will play the game differently.

I do recommend a change in more of a Halloween event in where BBs act as fleet support ability. If you guys like the Rank feeling atm then I love you guys, if not then a change has to be achieved. Cheers!

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So far the comments have not been toxic, and he didn't have much commentary, he had more questions than anything, which I felt was appropriate. I imagine he had more to say, but will leave it to us for now.

I am glad he possed the question as he did, as opposed to "Why are you playing?", one of his NA/American compatriots did recently.

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14 minutes ago, RedSeaBear said:

Tired is how I feel with Rank. I'm tired of destroyers sailing into radar or torps and dying. I'm tired of battleships camping in the back not supporting their team. I'm tired of the cruisers who don't know they have a citadel. I'm tired of players not sticking together and working for the win. I'm tired of one good teams efforts being undone by the next batch of window licking mouth bringing troglodytes. I'm Tired of players who get toxic because you're not playing like they want you. I'm tired of the damage farmer who saves their star but doesn't help the team win. I'm tired of trying to hold a team back from rushing into defeat when the game is almost won. 

 I've Ranked out 4 seasons in a row and the USS Black is the only thing keeping me going at this point. I enjoy the Flint I earned and the Fletcher is one of my favorite DDs. So I really want to keep at it till I get the Black. If/When WG gives the option of earning these prizes ships by way of getting Coal or Steel than why play Rank.  

I wish Rank was more like the Pearl event or the Clash of the Elements event, where you earn things by being good at the game. And you don't get screwed because your team sucked.

That's why I feel that they should remove revokable ranks, and make ranks harder to get.  I don't think a player should be punished for being unable to carry.  Make the top 3 or 4 people on the winning team gain stars, and no more revokable ranks.  You're not going to have people "get lucky" when you have to place top 3-4 to advance....three times in a row to gain the next rank.

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Rank is a.....choice!

Here's an idea...instead of sending pinkies to Co-op...send them to ranked instead.

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1 minute ago, crzyhawk said:

That's why I feel that they should remove revokable ranks, and make ranks harder to get.  I don't think a player should be punished for being unable to carry.  Make the top 3 or 4 people on the winning team gain stars, and no more revokable ranks.  You're not going to have people "get lucky" when you have to place top 3-4 to advance....three times in a row to gain the next rank.

To be fair, I've benefited of being lucky. As I said in my comment, my grief is more so with the overall design. You may remove ranked, but that doesn't address the agency or risk aversion issue. I feel it's become topical given the patch and the previous community contributors who have apparently just realized that the community appears to be gravitating toward World of Tanks salt in part. I am in no way exempt from this of course.

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Ranked is kind of boring, to tell you the truth it burned me out on the game.  

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Ranked is the only reason I still play the game. In fact, I generally only reinstall the game during rank season.

This season is a bit whacked, at least at the T10 level. Radar/hydro in general make the game overall less fun and more random {agency reduction) and at T10 it seems to be the defining factor much of the time.

But overall, I enjoy a system where people are rewarded for the the success of the team rather than individual rewards. Avoiding a lost star for the biggest loser was a bad addition and it creates some perverse emergent behavior we wouldn't otherwise see, but I don't feel it's a huge deal.

Best of all, ranked is optional. So it doesn't make sense that some people want to see it drastically changed or removed.

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Give me my signals- [edited] the crapcamo from 10 to whatever and then would be nice to get some modules but not THAT nice. Nothing could harness me to 2-3 maps facing single tier opposition. The guys that grind it out? Power to you but I’ve got better things to do... like wax a pocupine.

 

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I kind of like Ranked battles but never really tried to get any higher than 10. I never saw the point, figured the people beyond that would be really good players and I was just after the signal flags. My experiences have always been positive in Ranked because of that. I say leave it in the game, maybe tweak how it is done, but leave it for those who enjoy the challenge and thrive on the frustrating nature of it. Ranked is optional, no one is forced into playing besides what do you want to replace it with?

BTW if there is something else going on I don't bother playing more than one or two matches in Ranked. Just to get my signals and get back to whatever it is I am grinding.

Edited by Taylor3006

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My would you need to delete it?

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22 hours ago, Beneej_Spoor said:

This is my ust a shill". I've actually used that term before, and it's not Corporate Shillish or Corporate Stooge-ery to point out positives. For instance, the restructuring of Captain Skills into the 4 groups is very good I find, though now current meta it feels Priority Target is mandatory for the amount of information it provides. When it crosses over to being a shill is when the person noting the positive refuses to adapt or accept the criticism of said positive point, or to note that the positive they're mentioning doesn't exist (I.E. Zoup stating "Not enough data on the Conqueror" or "Conqueror is simply not Overpowered")

Zoup is correct here. He is not being a shill. I think you need to read through the ZOMG CONK IS OP threads from months ago, in which several of us laid out stats-based cases showing that Conk was not OP. Indeed, the problem with that ship is that you can't carry in it, and proof of that is simple: I have played in two seasons of Clan Wars and no top clan had a Conk as its BB, everyone went with Yammy or Monty. If you look at its Solo win rate, you'll see it is only middling. That's why all of the really good BB players I know play either Yammy or Monty, because they have powerful accurate guns that get kills when needed. When my unicum div mates play Conk it is only for the cancerous HE laughs....

The major problem with Conk isn't OP-ness but the stupid HE-flinging BB meta the RN BBs have triggered. The only good thing about all the HE-flinging BB annoyances is that they are easy kills. But they have significantly degraded the playing atmosphere. 

Edited by Taichunger

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Nobody is forcing anybody to play ranked. Might as well keep it in. Check your salt at the door.

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5 hours ago, Taylor3006 said:

I kind of like Ranked battles but never really tried to get any higher than 10. I never saw the point, figured the people beyond that would be really good players and I was just after the signal flags. My experiences have always been positive in Ranked because of that. I say leave it in the game, maybe tweak how it is done, but leave it for those who enjoy the challenge and thrive on the frustrating nature of it. Ranked is optional, no one is forced into playing besides what do you want to replace it with?

BTW if there is something else going on I don't bother playing more than one or two matches in Ranked. Just to get my signals and get back to whatever it is I am grinding.

I’m with you don’t play ranked past 10, this game is addictive, it takes a lot of time and energy to get tier X ships, most likely by then you’ve experienced some burnout grinding out ships , commanders, campaigns, and just about anything else Wows dangles in front of you

when the fun factor goes what keeps you playing is the addiction, Ranked is the ultimate grind and has got more to do with luck how much time you have than with how good you are

be top player and not loose a star,but most games it’s positioning were a lot of it is out of your control to be no 1 every game

I don’t think Ranked is that good for the majority of players and overall health of the individuals and the enjoyment of this game, it finished me and my  fun factor has lessened because of it

maybe just maybe Wows counts on the new crop of players that enjoy chasing that dangling carrot,

Rank is the ultimate grind and im not part of most of it anymore

 

 

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2 minutes ago, HMCS_Devilfish said:

I’m with you don’t play ranked past 10, this game is addictive, it takes a lot of time and energy to get tier X ships, most likely by then you’ve experienced some burnout grinding out ships , commanders, campaigns, and just about anything else Wows dangles in front of you

when the fun factor goes what keeps you playing is the addiction, Ranked is the ultimate grind and has got more to do with luck how much time you have than with how good you are

be top player and not loose a star,but most games it’s positioning were a lot of it is out of your control to be no 1 every game

I don’t think Ranked is that good for the majority of players and overall health of the individuals and the enjoyment of this game, it finished me and my  fun factor has lessened because of it

maybe just maybe Wows counts on the new crop of players that enjoy chasing that dangling carrot,

Rank is the ultimate grind and im not part of most of it anymore

I couldn't agree more. The one thing I will say about the Ranked grind is I give props to those people who have the perseverance to go the distance. I enjoy WoWS but not sure I have the patience for that at all. I suppose those who are after the prize are just gritting their teeth and soldiering (sailoring) on.

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1 hour ago, Taylor3006 said:

I couldn't agree more. The one thing I will say about the Ranked grind is I give props to those people who have the perseverance to go the distance. I enjoy WoWS but not sure I have the patience for that at all. I suppose those who are after the prize are just gritting their teeth and soldiering (sailoring) on.

I just finished getting the Russian Special Captain and like Ranked you have to do some grinding when Miracle of Miracles the German ships just disappear for 20 or so games

I don’t think it’s a coincidence that happens and ranked play the same thing,sometimes the game is in your favor sometimes not and I don’t think it’s all the Random

anyone can get to rank 1 just be willing to spend time and money on consumables 

 

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11 hours ago, Beneej_Spoor said:

Warships is a perfect example of how to frustrate a player to no end. As it turns out "Agency" or a sense of control, is what helps dictate almost every time whether or not a player will be angry at a win or loss. A lot  of what goes into the game (ranked or otherwise) feels out of your hands, and that makes a lot of people upset often.

:Smile_great: This, oh so much this.

 

I just do not understand how WG doesn't understand this.   It isn't a cultural issue, this phenomena is universal.  Human beings have increased or decreased frustrations by their level of control over their situation.  It is honestly why I suspect that deep down they want ranked to be infuriating.  As it feels they designed it perfectly to be so.

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9 hours ago, HooplaJones said:

Ranked is kind of boring, to tell you the truth it burned me out on the game.  

Very much this. 

I only play it now with ships I am grinding out. 

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