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Ensign_Cthulhu

Turning things up to (tier) 11: is it really impossible to balance missiles?

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What we have to keep in mind is that early missiles were by no means the reliable death-dealers they are today. A hit rate of 50% or less was not unreasonable (early air-to-air experience was as low as 10%; surface-to-air was better, but only because it had much bigger radars and computers behind it, and some element of manual guidance). A 15 to 20 second reload for a double launcher, an inability for that launcher to fire on anything else while the missiles were still in flight (beam riders or dedicated, non-switching illuminators), and you have the recipe for a perfect nerf.

The only thing that early missiles buff for an AA ship is the range at which you can engage, and even this depends on the missile. In addition, torpedo bombers (which come in at wave-top height) are going to suffer a lot less from early SAM depredations, except possibly Talos, whose guidance system was amenable to bringing a missile straight down onto a target under manual guidance. So there's one automatic nerf. 

In addition, early point defence missiles like Sea Cat had to have their launchers manually reloaded - four missiles, and then a down-time of a few minutes while the next quartet is loaded on. That's no better, and possibly worse, than some high-tier AA gun cruisers can do in game right now. And a lot of the new-build Terrier ships did not have a substantial gun armament (some didn't have any at all until Kennedy, aghast at the poor hit rate of the early missiles, demanded it be put on). Even the WW2 cruiser conversions lost the greater part of theirs - another nerf - and could not fire against surface targets if they were engaging aircraft.

It goes without saying that the magazine capacity would have to be capped, or a VERY long reload time be imposed. This is on top of the fact that a lot of the missiles in the early SAM cruisers were stowed dismantled and needed to be assembled and finned on the way to the launcher. So the missile magazines, capped already, would also have a cooldown time on the immediate-use rounds.

One other major nerf would need to happen, and that would be for radar to be restricted to line of sight only. This would be necessary to prevent missiles becoming an auto-click rain of fire on any ship within range, and I know quite a few people want this nerf already anyway.

 

Note that I am of course only referring to the early CG's and DLG's of the Cold War period with beam-riding (early Terrier, early Masurca, Seaslug), manual-guided (Seacat), or very short range radar-guided missiles (first-generation Tartar). There is no way on earth to balance an Aegis ship for this game. It would require its own separate environment, around about Tier 15 or so (and you can imagine what the XP grind would be like).

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It would be pretty hard to mesh with current AA mechanics - which are being thrown out with the CV rework, although granted that's not happening until 2019 I'd guess.

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Why do people insist on trying to make the game something it's not.....:Smile_amazed:

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Missiles were tried by the devs on internal servers and found to be too difficult to balance and un-fun.

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That is not Tier 11, that is Tier 15

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5 minutes ago, Lert said:

Missiles were tried by the devs on internal servers and found to be too difficult to balance and un-fun.

It would be interesting to know what parameters they used. I'd rather face a Whitby-class frigate with Seacat than the monster they've rendered Worcester as.

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6 minutes ago, Lert said:

Missiles were tried by the devs on internal servers and found to be too difficult to balance and un-fun.

Oooh? Do you have a link or something where we could find out more about this?

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2 minutes ago, senseNOTmade said:

Oooh? Do you have a link or something where we could find out more about this?

Nope.

3 minutes ago, Ensign_Cthulhu said:

It would be interesting to know what parameters they used.

It would, yes.

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3 minutes ago, senseNOTmade said:

Oooh? Do you have a link or something where we could find out more about this?

They actually mentioned it in the most recent Q&A. Basically, the three Soviet DDG's teased at the start of 2017 were meant to be a third soviet line, with missiles.

Testing didn't go well, and they've been MIA ever since

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2 minutes ago, Phoenix_jz said:

They actually mentioned it in the most recent Q&A. Basically, the three Soviet DDG's teased at the start of 2017 were meant to be a third soviet line, with missiles.

Testing didn't go well, and they've been MIA ever since

I agree that it was probably better if they didn't proceed, but, for curiousity, what DDG classes were teased?  I suspect Sovremenny wasn't one of them, nor Udaloy.  Too modern.

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1 minute ago, Lert said:

It would, yes.

Especially since most missiles of that era didn't go much faster than a main battery shell anyway, and they (like shells) slow down when their motors run out, possibly even faster than shells do. Flight time to 20km is going to be on the order of several seconds, and dodging would be a thing.

It's probably something for a separate cold-war edition of the game, with entry to be gained by grinding up from Tier 10 of this one. Except by that stage you're possibly just reinventing Harpoon (which, let's face it, is a thing which needs doing and doing properly).

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If it was up to my imagination, I would do a tier 11- 21 as a concept for only advance warfare ships like missiles/dept charges and anything else  for testing. which means there would be no mixing of tier 1-10 with tiers 11-20. If done well I think it can work. But then again its only an idea.

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16 minutes ago, awiggin said:

Why do people insist on trying to make the game something it's not.....:Smile_amazed:

 A modern game could be interesting and fun but this is not a modern game and there is no way to make the non-missile tiers work with the missile tiers.

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1 minute ago, mavfin87 said:

I agree that it was probably better if they didn't proceed, but, for curiousity, what DDG classes were teased?  I suspect Sovremenny wasn't one of them, nor Udaloy.  Too modern.

Two were paper, one was real

4DOTSq1.gif

https://worldofwarships.com/en/news/common/whatsinthebox/

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I can only imagine the hilarity that introducing a ship named "Smeliy" would cause on the NA server.

Would have loved to be looking over the devs' shoulders as they struggled with those.

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Missiles would be cool, but this is a WWII game, and not a 1950-80s one. If WG was to introduce missiles, they might as well go all the way and make a new game based on modern ships. The CV changed naval warfare dramatically, a modern game would have to be completely different mechanic wise. I would play it, but it's not something that just could be tacked onto WOWS.

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1 minute ago, AJTP89 said:

 but this is a WWII game

No it's not. It's a roughly-the-first-half-of-the-20th-century game.

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1 minute ago, Lert said:

No it's not. It's a roughly-the-first-half-of-the-20th-century game.

True, but the most iconic ships are WWII (as WWII was the peak of the BB oriented ship development). Most people aren't playing for the New York, they're playing for the Hood or Iowa.

It's the beside the point, the game isn't meant for the CV dominated long range combat of the 1950s on.

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50 minutes ago, awiggin said:

Why do people insist on trying to make the game something it's not.....:Smile_amazed:

Sounds like it's time for a game developer to try making Harpoon* again. 

*A great paper to PC game(in concept if not execution) from the early 90's that needed a lot more CPU power..

46 minutes ago, Lert said:

Missiles were tried by the devs on internal servers and found to be too difficult to balance and un-fun.

Getting focused in missile combat at game scale speed would mean you'd spend more time in the queue than in the game.

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I agree that while interesting missiles do not fit WoWs,... now ... rockets, that could be a thing... but can't remember if there were any ship mounted surface-to-surface rockets (at least in the current vessels/classes we have in game).

Still, Hood has AA rockets and some aircraft carried them (British CV flavor perhaps?).

Edited by CO_Valle

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Modern naval combat is all about not getting hit.

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Just now, BrushWolf said:

Modern naval combat is all about not getting hit.

More like not get hit, counter fire, fire counter measures. 

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14 minutes ago, Vangm94 said:

More like not get hit, counter fire, fire counter measures. 

Right, counter measures whether they are computer controlled rapid fire guns like a Phalanx, anti-missiles, or even simple chaff are all about not getting hit because if you do get hit you are out of action if you are not sinking.

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