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Lochnivar

AP v. HE : By the numbers

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What if I were to tell you that more damage doesn't always mean more destruction?  More specifically, you doing more damage doesn't mean you're actually helping your team out.

It's a freaky, counter-intuitive thought, but something to think about.  By farming damage with HE, you could be hurting your team.

Other than capping, the object of a game is to eliminate ships.  So, sinking ships quickly and efficiently allows you to move on to your next target.  The team that does this best is the one who wins.  Unfortunately, we have those battleship captains who simply want to stand back and sling HE for easy fire damage.  In the end, those captains are hurting you.

Let's take a look at the numbers.

In this example, we're going to look at a Montana and a Conqueror being shot at with Montana guns.  This is drastically oversimplifying the scenario, but it gets the point across.

A Montana has 96,300 HP and a shell damage of 13,500 for AP.  For HE, the damage is 5,700.  A Conqueror is 82,900 HP.

So, we shoot HE at the Montana, land a hit for 5,700 and start a fire.  Yay!  The Wiki says that a battleship (without mods or flags) will burn for 60 seconds at .03% max HP per second.  So, simple math shows us that the Montana will take 289 pts per second for a total of 17,334 at the end of 60 seconds.  For the Conqueror, that is 249 per second for 14,922 after 60 seconds.

Sounds like a bargain?  In 60 seconds, we've done more damage to the Montana than a citadel would have done in one shot.  Win?

Not quite.  Battleships also have Repair Party consumables which can help mitigate this damage and restore HP.  So, let's reexamine the damage you just did.

According to the Wiki, the RP can heal up to 100% of fire damage...  Which means that after that fire dies off, the Montana is going to spend the next few minutes repairing all that damage you just did to it.  Crap...

Looking at other damage, citadel hits can be repaired up to 10% (more on cruisers) and regular penetrating hits up to 50%.  So, let's run those numbers.

Let's assume that I take a citadel from the Montana.  That means I take all 13,500 in the face.  My RP is only going to heal 1,350 HP of damage.

For a standard penetration hit, I'll take 4,455 (33% of max shell damage).  The "good news" is that RP can heal 50% of standard penetration damage. (60% for British BBs)  That means that my repair party is going to heal back 2,228 points of damage in my Montana and 2,673 in my Conqueror.

Let's put it in another perspective.  After one hit from the Montana with HE and Fire, the actual damage that I've done is actually 0.  Anything that I've hit is eligible to be repaired.  Assuming that the target hasn't blown all their heals, of course.  However, firing AP, the real damage that I've done is much more significant.  With a standard AP pen, i've done approximately 2,000 actual damage and a Citadel means over 11k of real damage that can't be healed.

So, let's forget about the "damage totals" that people rave about.  High damage, for anybody who is not me, is easy.  Making that damage stick and actually mean something is something completely different.

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Yeah I like using AP, my Duke of York for example fired it’s rear turret of 4 guns, 3 of the shells each got git a citadel hit and the 4 shell sank the enemy ship. If I had been firing HE I could have maybe lit 1 or more fires, destroyed som. Secondary and AA guns, but certainly would not have achieved that level of destruction lol.

Not everyone knows how valuable AP can be while using BBs, so it’s nice to see some members of the community helping out with educational threads. :Smile_Default:

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Yeah, but apparently the only thing people care about is the total damage they do. They could care less about helping the team win. That's why you don't see hardly any destroyers attempting to cap anymore, they're too busy skirting the edges of the caps or the map itself spamming torpedoes. That's why you see cruisers sitting behind islands spamming HE all game and rarely actually helping the team cap or kill. That's why you see battleships sitting at max range using [edited]HE on EVERYTHING rather than being useful to their team and screwing everyone over. And this is how it's gonna be so long as wargaming allows it. By continuously making HE and torpedoes more and more OP, and by allowing damage done to be the ultimate decider of your score, they've essentially turned this into farmships. 

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All of those arguments in the scenario you describe OP imply that both battleships are broadside to one another, thus making citadel hits possible. If the Montana angles in said scenario however, you will need the 460mm of the Yamato to penetrate. In addition, the Conqueror captain can set you on fire, force your DCP, making you susceptible to flooding or even more fires. Now the fact that people are lazy and don't really care for ammo switch as opportunities are presented is a different matter entirely...

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I get your point, OP.  And if that one battleship can then get away from you, and out from under all your team's guns (an ideal scenario), yes they can heal all that back.  I try to get the most out of my heals when I play a battleship, and for the most part in lower tier battles it isn't that difficult.

But you are discounting that in higher tier matches, it is very easy - even if you are careful with the use of your consumables - to get in a situation where the DOT stack overwhelms your battleship's ability to stop the bleeding and recoup the hit points.  Sure, you hold off on your DCP until you have two fires burning, then you trigger your RP since you can max it out.  Thirty seconds later you've got three more fires stacked on and a flood to boot.  That's your game, right there.  And maybe you don't ever get in those situations.  I try not to, but I'm only an average player.  I get overextended in my BB's more often than I should.

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46 minutes ago, Lochnivar said:

What if I were to tell you that more damage doesn't always mean more destruction?  More specifically, you doing more damage doesn't mean you're actually helping your team out.

It's a freaky, counter-intuitive thought, but something to think about.  By farming damage with HE, you could be hurting your team.

Other than capping, the object of a game is to eliminate ships.  So, sinking ships quickly and efficiently allows you to move on to your next target.  The team that does this best is the one who wins.  Unfortunately, we have those battleship captains who simply want to stand back and sling HE for easy fire damage.  In the end, those captains are hurting you.

Let's take a look at the numbers.

In this example, we're going to look at a Montana and a Conqueror being shot at with Montana guns.  This is drastically oversimplifying the scenario, but it gets the point across.

A Montana has 96,300 HP and a shell damage of 13,500 for AP.  For HE, the damage is 5,700.  A Conqueror is 82,900 HP.

So, we shoot HE at the Montana, land a hit for 5,700 and start a fire.  Yay!  The Wiki says that a battleship (without mods or flags) will burn for 60 seconds at .03% max HP per second.  So, simple math shows us that the Montana will take 289 pts per second for a total of 17,334 at the end of 60 seconds.  For the Conqueror, that is 249 per second for 14,922 after 60 seconds.

Sounds like a bargain?  In 60 seconds, we've done more damage to the Montana than a citadel would have done in one shot.  Win?

Not quite.  Battleships also have Repair Party consumables which can help mitigate this damage and restore HP.  So, let's reexamine the damage you just did.

According to the Wiki, the RP can heal up to 100% of fire damage...  Which means that after that fire dies off, the Montana is going to spend the next few minutes repairing all that damage you just did to it.  Crap...

Looking at other damage, citadel hits can be repaired up to 10% (more on cruisers) and regular penetrating hits up to 50%.  So, let's run those numbers.

Let's assume that I take a citadel from the Montana.  That means I take all 13,500 in the face.  My RP is only going to heal 1,350 HP of damage.

For a standard penetration hit, I'll take 4,455 (33% of max shell damage).  The "good news" is that RP can heal 50% of standard penetration damage. (60% for British BBs)  That means that my repair party is going to heal back 2,228 points of damage in my Montana and 2,673 in my Conqueror.

Let's put it in another perspective.  After one hit from the Montana with HE and Fire, the actual damage that I've done is actually 0.  Anything that I've hit is eligible to be repaired.  Assuming that the target hasn't blown all their heals, of course.  However, firing AP, the real damage that I've done is much more significant.  With a standard AP pen, i've done approximately 2,000 actual damage and a Citadel means over 11k of real damage that can't be healed.

So, let's forget about the "damage totals" that people rave about.  High damage, for anybody who is not me, is easy.  Making that damage stick and actually mean something is something completely different.

TLDR; Spamming HE at a British BB which has super-heal does damage but isn’t effective.

This is why they must fix the experience scoring.

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34 minutes ago, warheart1992 said:

All of those arguments in the scenario you describe OP imply that both battleships are broadside to one another, thus making citadel hits possible. If the Montana angles in said scenario however, you will need the 460mm of the Yamato to penetrate. In addition, the Conqueror captain can set you on fire, force your DCP, making you susceptible to flooding or even more fires. Now the fact that people are lazy and don't really care for ammo switch as opportunities are presented is a different matter entirely...

Not necessarily.  I also mentioned numbers for penetrating damage as well, shots that aren't citadels.  In general, only 50% of penetrating damage can be repaired.  That's still far less than the 100% of fire heal.

That being said, yes, there are plenty of times when HE with a BB is warranted and desired, i.e. bow on.  That's a question of play style, not damage efficiency.

 

13 minutes ago, Fishrokk said:

I get your point, OP.  And if that one battleship can then get away from you, and out from under all your team's guns (an ideal scenario), yes they can heal all that back.  I try to get the most out of my heals when I play a battleship, and for the most part in lower tier battles it isn't that difficult.

But you are discounting that in higher tier matches, it is very easy - even if you are careful with the use of your consumables - to get in a situation where the DOT stack overwhelms your battleship's ability to stop the bleeding and recoup the hit points.  Sure, you hold off on your DCP until you have two fires burning, then you trigger your RP since you can max it out.  Thirty seconds later you've got three more fires stacked on and a flood to boot.  That's your game, right there.  And maybe you don't ever get in those situations.  I try not to, but I'm only an average player.  I get overextended in my BB's more often than I should.

I actually get into the scenario you are mentioning all the time.  it's why my win rate and WTR suck as bad as they do.  I have a bad habit, horrid habit, of sticking my fat BB [edited] out there and people tossing fires on it.

However, I've also seen games where somebody doesn't pull a Loch, blunder in and get torched.  Instead they get in, take a few fires and then fall behind cover to repair.  The damage from fire is simply going to be regenerated as long as there are heals available.  With AP, that damage is going to stick.  Even if there is a lull in the battle and both sides can heal, the guy who took AP damage is simply not going to be as fighting trim as the guy who took fire damage.  Even if the fire guy took more damage.

Yes, you can bleed out HP very quickly when set ablaze.  However, more captains are becoming savvy that you don't burn a DC at the first hint of smoke.  Often, I'll let two rage for a little bit knowing that I can probably find a quiet spot and go dark, cackling madly while I heal all of it back.

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