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USMC2145

Ranked tier 10 and DD.....

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Now before i say this it does not apply to all DD players. WHAT is with all the suiciding DD??? I know we have damage farming players and i blame that on WG for the meta they set up for ranked, but geez half these matches start and before 5 min is up every dd is dead. Not because the either side had great aim, but because either our side or the other sides DD just ran into caps or charged the enemy and died for no reason. It is just so frustrating when you look at your team and all your DD are dead before half the team could even get set up. Sorry just venting i guess......

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DDs die for a lot of reasons -- water is filled with blind torps, the ridiculously stupid radars of the Russian bias bote and Des Memes (as bonus stupidity, they operate through islands making them immune to DD torps), BB AP flying in from afar to wreck them since many BB drivers can put shells on DDs from 15+ kms, hunter-killer packs of Gearings and Yueyangs, and high ROF cruisers in general. Teams prioritize killing DDs. Keeping a DD alive in Ranked is not easy. 

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19 minutes ago, Shadow_NA said:

Now before i say this it does not apply to all DD players. WHAT is with all the suiciding DD??? I know we have damage farming players and i blame that on WG for the meta they set up for ranked, but geez half these matches start and before 5 min is up every dd is dead. Not because the either side had great aim, but because either our side or the other sides DD just ran into caps or charged the enemy and died for no reason. It is just so frustrating when you look at your team and all your DD are dead before half the team could even get set up. Sorry just venting i guess......

IMO, it's bad DD play. I can usually hang around to the very end of close to it in ranked, provided I don't take some random torpedo.  A lot of it really comes down to players who do not understand that discretion is the better part of valor when it comes to DDvDD dueling.  Players who are too aggressive when it comes to capping early before your team has had a chance to take account for the locations of the enemy team's ships.

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What T said. Playing a DD is all about risk management. You could hug the side of the map for the first 10 mins and be perfectly safe, but you're not helping your team and you're not helping your score.

It takes a ton of experience to realize what is playing out to be a bad situation and what's a good situation. That only comes with time and battles.

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7 minutes ago, Taichunger said:

DDs die for a lot of reasons -- water is filled with blind torps, the ridiculously stupid radars of the Russian bias bote and Des Memes (as bonus stupidity, they operate through islands making them immune to DD torps), BB AP flying in from afar to wreck them since many BB drivers can put shells on DDs from 15+ kms, hunter-killer packs of Gearings and Yueyangs, and high ROF cruisers in general. Teams prioritize killing DDs. Keeping a DD alive in Ranked is not easy. 

I'm sorry, Tai, but I put a lot more of the blame for DD deaths on bad DD play.  

Getting radared by a DM behind an island is to a certain degree the fault of the DD player.  You shouldn't be that aggressive near a cap when there are islands close enough to the cap that a  radar cruiser can sit unspotted behind it and cover the entire cap circle.  And if you don't know where that radar cruiser is, then you should play a LOT less aggressively.  You might get on the cap if it's close to the edge of a potential radar cruiser's radar range, but you should have an escape plan to immediately run away and break contact without firing your guns which only increases your detection range.

When it comes to BBs, it doesn't matter whether it's AP or HE.  They're landing hits because a) most tier 10 BBs have accurate guns and even those whose accuracy is less than stellar tend to have a lot of guns (i.e. 12).  And a lot of shells does tend to produce an occasional hit.

As for the rest, yes, tier 10 is a rather deadly, Darwinist environment where only the best DD players survive.

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5 minutes ago, Lensar said:

What T said. Playing a DD is all about risk management. You could hug the side of the map for the first 10 mins and be perfectly safe, but you're not helping your team and you're not helping your score.

It takes a ton of experience to realize what is playing out to be a bad situation and what's a good situation. That only comes with time and battles.

Agreed, Lensar.  But the thing is that you can gain a lot of this experience learning to successfully play DDs at most tiers.  You can learn to read situations, learn when it's a good time to be aggressive or to play it safe.  Learn how to deal with radar.  Learn how to fight DDvDD gun duels.  Learn how to stealth torp.  One of the harder things to learn is torping, because it's not always about just aiming where the aim guide says to aim.  Sometimes you need to learn to read the enemy ship and guess his intentions.  The target may be heading a certain direction when you are ready to launch those torps, but the enemy ship may be intending to make a turn.  And sometimes a smart torping DD player can read the enemy player's intentions by reading the overall situation around them.  Sometimes, it's not your ship against his ship, but rather it's you against the enemy player!

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2 minutes ago, Crucis said:

Agreed, Lensar.  But the thing is that you can gain a lot of this experience learning to successfully play DDs at most tiers.  You can learn to read situations, learn when it's a good time to be aggressive or to play it safe.  Learn how to deal with radar.  Learn how to fight DDvDD gun duels.  Learn how to stealth torp.  One of the harder things to learn is torping, because it's not always about just aiming where the aim guide says to aim.  Sometimes you need to learn to read the enemy ship and guess his intentions.  The target may be heading a certain direction when you are ready to launch those torps, but the enemy ship may be intending to make a turn.  And sometimes a smart torping DD player can read the enemy player's intentions by reading the overall situation around them.  Sometimes, it's not your ship against his ship, but rather it's you against the enemy player!

I have a lot of friends who start playing warships, whenever they see me on discord doing ranked. These are super smart super skilled gamers; people who are generally much better at games than I am.

Yet, when I play low tiers with them, it's just amazing how little situational awareness they have. Little things, like understanding the spatial distances between ships, such as whether or not to chase that spotted CV. Or if they can get in and torp an enemy ship before nearby ships close the distance. Learning this stuff takes a lot of time and battles. Even as I explain things to them, they still don't have enough "seat time" to piece together the information available on the minimap.

Hell, I still have to educate them about torping friendlies. It's like new players to the game are burdened with some kind of original sin that prevents them from understanding where friendly ships are likely to end up when they are firing torps. They also believe that friendlies "drive into" their torps. It's pretty amusing.

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if I take the Khab out I am pretty much not a DD anyway so I try to sit in between the REAL DDs and the BBs and find a BB to harass while trying to NOT get hit by the other 5 or 6 ships that really want me dead... no one likes to see a KHAB if thier side lacks ROF cruisers....
SO if the BBs can delete the DM it makes it easier to fly around HE'ng the crap put of them...

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26 minutes ago, Lensar said:

What T said. Playing a DD is all about risk management. You could hug the side of the map for the first 10 mins and be perfectly safe, but you're not helping your team and you're not helping your score.

It takes a ton of experience to realize what is playing out to be a bad situation and what's a good situation. That only comes with time and battles.

 

6 minutes ago, Lensar said:

I have a lot of friends who start playing warships, whenever they see me on discord doing ranked. These are super smart super skilled gamers; people who are generally much better at games than I am.

Yet, when I play low tiers with them, it's just amazing how little situational awareness they have. Little things, like understanding the spatial distances between ships, such as whether or not to chase that spotted CV. Or if they can get in and torp an enemy ship before nearby ships close the distance. Learning this stuff takes a lot of time and battles. Even as I explain things to them, they still don't have enough "seat time" to piece together the information available on the minimap.

Hell, I still have to educate them about torping friendlies. It's like new players to the game are burdened with some kind of original sin that prevents them from understanding where friendly ships are likely to end up when they are firing torps. They also believe that friendlies "drive into" their torps. It's pretty amusing.

so much truth to everything you said.....

Bq5IZS5.gif

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Agree with it being mostly the DD's fault, mostly.

This season, with 10 being irrevocable, and it being relatively easy to reach 10, I suspect (but can't prove) that there are a lot of players who have only one T10 boat and who are relatively new to T10.  Maybe they ground out their first T10 boat just for ranked.  In any case, rank 10-5 has plenty of potatoes.  Many times I've shouted in chat "DONT RUSH INTO THE CAP.  WE DONT KNOW WHERE THE DM IS" as a Shimakaze beelines for A on Tears.  At least half  the time they hear me and turn away, so maybe one option is to be vocal in chat and try to organize your team before the game even starts.  I've found that quickie calls like "Shimmy go wide of A to spot (double-click quadrant).  Gearing to B.  Rest to A" can really help get a team started on the right path.

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40 minutes ago, Crucis said:

I'm sorry, Tai, but I put a lot more of the blame for DD deaths on bad DD play.  

Getting radared by a DM behind an island is to a certain degree the fault of the DD player.  You shouldn't be that aggressive near a cap when there are islands close enough to the cap that a  radar cruiser can sit unspotted behind it and cover the entire cap circle.  And if you don't know where that radar cruiser is, then you should play a LOT less aggressively.  You might get on the cap if it's close to the edge of a potential radar cruiser's radar range, but you should have an escape plan to immediately run away and break contact without firing your guns which only increases your detection range.

When it comes to BBs, it doesn't matter whether it's AP or HE.  They're landing hits because a) most tier 10 BBs have accurate guns and even those whose accuracy is less than stellar tend to have a lot of guns (i.e. 12).  And a lot of shells does tend to produce an occasional hit.

As for the rest, yes, tier 10 is a rather deadly, Darwinist environment where only the best DD players survive.

OTOH, if you know a spot where you are covered when the radar/hydro lights you, you should be good unless they're chaining the radars. It also helps if you had played Clan Wars before. I have noted folks in the R9-R10 have issues with the meta.

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8 minutes ago, n00bot said:

Agree with it being mostly the DD's fault, mostly.

This season, with 10 being irrevocable, and it being relatively easy to reach 10, I suspect (but can't prove) that there are a lot of players who have only one T10 boat and who are relatively new to T10.  Maybe they ground out their first T10 boat just for ranked.  In any case, rank 10-5 has plenty of potatoes.  Many times I've shouted in chat "DONT RUSH INTO THE CAP.  WE DONT KNOW WHERE THE DM IS" as a Shimakaze beelines for A on Tears.  At least half  the time they hear me and turn away, so maybe one option is to be vocal in chat and try to organize your team before the game even starts.  I've found that quickie calls like "Shimmy go wide of A to spot (double-click quadrant).  Gearing to B.  Rest to A" can really help get a team started on the right path.

Yep, I only have one T-10 bote, Gearing. Not my all time favorite ship either. Not that she's bad, I just don't care for T-10. Lower tiers are much more fun

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4 minutes ago, Bill_Halsey said:

OTOH, if you know a spot where you are covered when the radar/hydro lights you, you should be good unless they're chaining the radars. It also helps if you had played Clan Wars before. I have noted folks in the R9-R10 have issues with the meta.

Bill, I really don't like remaining static in this game.  I'll occasionally do it while smoke shooting, particularly in a Minotaur, but that's more because it's rather necessary.  And I really don't like charging into a cap and hiding behind an island unmoving because you're stuck there if the enemy lights you up with radar.  And worse, if the enemy gets a ship around to the side of the island and has a line of fire on you, you're up the creek without a paddle.  IMO, this is generally a "bad DD player" strategy that gets you killed more often than not.  IMO, it's better to just get the enemy spotted and try to sink them or force them to retreat from the cap circle so that you can then take the cap more safely.

 

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7 minutes ago, n00bot said:

Agree with it being mostly the DD's fault, mostly.

This season, with 10 being irrevocable, and it being relatively easy to reach 10, I suspect (but can't prove) that there are a lot of players who have only one T10 boat and who are relatively new to T10.  Maybe they ground out their first T10 boat just for ranked.  In any case, rank 10-5 has plenty of potatoes.  Many times I've shouted in chat "DONT RUSH INTO THE CAP.  WE DONT KNOW WHERE THE DM IS" as a Shimakaze beelines for A on Tears.  At least half  the time they hear me and turn away, so maybe one option is to be vocal in chat and try to organize your team before the game even starts.  I've found that quickie calls like "Shimmy go wide of A to spot (double-click quadrant).  Gearing to B.  Rest to A" can really help get a team started on the right path.

Once you make it past R8, you should have an idea of where the important points of the map are. I will agree with then need to be vocal and organize the tm. Most guys only use the4 chat to vent their spleen otherwise they stay mute.

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On the flip side of what I wrote, when it's not the DD's fault, it can be lack of support from cruisers who are island-humping.  I've definitely died a few times going into a cap, thinking my team had my back, only to find that the enemy is shooting at me, but we're not shooting back.  If you want your DD to survive, cover for them.

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1 hour ago, n00bot said:

Agree with it being mostly the DD's fault, mostly.

This season, with 10 being irrevocable, and it being relatively easy to reach 10, I suspect (but can't prove) that there are a lot of players who have only one T10 boat and who are relatively new to T10.  Maybe they ground out their first T10 boat just for ranked.  In any case, rank 10-5 has plenty of potatoes.  Many times I've shouted in chat "DONT RUSH INTO THE CAP.  WE DONT KNOW WHERE THE DM IS" as a Shimakaze beelines for A on Tears.  At least half  the time they hear me and turn away, so maybe one option is to be vocal in chat and try to organize your team before the game even starts.  I've found that quickie calls like "Shimmy go wide of A to spot (double-click quadrant).  Gearing to B.  Rest to A" can really help get a team started on the right path.

I don't know if I'm being elitist by saying this or not.  But it seems to me that if you're in a DD and you need someone to tell you to NOT go into A on Tears that soon, you're probably not that good of a DD player in the first place.  I'd like to think that I have a pretty good idea of when it's a good time to enter a cap or not.  Some of it's knowing where the enemy radar ships are.  Some of it's knowing where the enemy DDs are, and for that matter what DDs the enemy even has, and whether you have an advantage of them or not.

 

I will say though, that good team communication is VERY important.  But almost equally important is for everyone to follow the plan.  it annoys me no end when you have someone say (On Tears, for example), "One DD to C, everyone else to A", and then you see that one of the team's 2 BBs ignores the plan and goes C with the DD.  This  ends up weakening whatever advantage your team might be able to have by all bring around A.  But of course, then that rogue BB will say, "I'm in a Yammy.  I can cover A from here."  Yeah, sure, you have the range, but that's not the same thing as being only 15-ish km from the enemy as opposed to being 20+ km  from the enemy.

 

 

 

Edited by Crucis
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As a DD driver, I can say this: I do best when my team lets me know where they want me. Randoms, ranked doesn't matter. I do best when I know that they aren't going to order me somewhere and then leave my butt hanging out in the breeze too. Sadly it seems like its mostly BB drivers that do this, but not always. Otherwise, I am left to read what my team intends just from the mini map. That doesn't always work very well.

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5 minutes ago, Crucis said:

Bill, I really don't like remaining static in this game.  I'll occasionally do it while smoke shooting, particularly in a Minotaur, but that's more because it's rather necessary.  And I really don't like charging into a cap and hiding behind an island unmoving because you're stuck there if the enemy lights you up with radar.  And worse, if the enemy gets a ship around to the side of the island and has a line of fire on you, you're up the creek without a paddle.  IMO, this is generally a "bad DD player" strategy that gets you killed more often than not.  IMO, it's better to just get the enemy spotted and try to sink them or force them to retreat from the cap circle so that you can then take the cap more safely.

 

Which is why you should have an exit vector plotted out when you do go into a cap. The issue I have is if the reds are 2 caps to 1, you'd have a fun time turning it around. I'm not a fan of doing it either, but after 40 seconds you can get the hell out of dodge. Umless you got chained rafar. Then your screwed. Doesn't mean it's hopeless though.

 

shot-18_05_05_16_36.59-0437.thumb.jpg.67a1dca50fb4f4e25fe9316ccbc1c9a4.jpg

 

Here's a fine example. There's a Z-52 behind the island  and he's lighting me up with hydro. The Mino I was supporting got torped.There's a Hindy behind him and looks who's coming up to finish me off. Also there was another red BB SE. Our DM driver did not bother with his radar., despite my pleas and the Repub. So I fired 1 salvo of fish. Result:

 

shot-18_05_05_16_37.21-0845.thumb.jpg.2234f023fe53bc996f2eb34622df63f9.jpg

 

shot-18_05_05_16_37.28-0785.thumb.jpg.07697d8b664ffc7f0e72a0df1bb7eba4.jpg

 

I killed and got killed by the Hindy later. Our derping DM driver never bothered using his radar.Was it risky? Yes. Was it worth it? Well we won that game so yeah.

 

 

 

 

 

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2 hours ago, Crucis said:

IMO, it's bad DD play. I can usually hang around to the very end of close to it in ranked, provided I don't take some random torpedo.  A lot of it really comes down to players who do not understand that discretion is the better part of valor when it comes to DDvDD dueling.  Players who are too aggressive when it comes to capping early before your team has had a chance to take account for the locations of the enemy team's ships.

dd v dd fights usually aren't 1 on 1 affairs.  there's no issue with going in and knife fighting an enemy dd so long as you have cruisers helping you.  my decision as to whether or not to rush a cap is predicated entirely upon how many friendly guns will be pointed in that direction if i run into an enemy dd.

 

im confident i can take out a red dd on my own most times... but its not worth the hit points ill pay doing it.

 

name of the game when playing a dd is never to pick a fair fight... never contest a cap solo.  never fight someone without backup.  you're in a dd, you should NEVER, even with radar, be forced to fight at a disadvantage by the other team.  you have every opportunity to avoid fights unless they're overwhelmingly to your favor; if a dd dies, its because of his own stupid decisions.  (and yes, that applies to myself when im driving a dd as well)

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DD play at tier 10 in a ranked environment is an entirely different beast than solo play, and especially solo play at earlier tiers. Two ships in particular, the Des Moines and the radar Minotaur, along with the Z-52, just drastically change the way you have to approach everything. You can't rely on torps for damage. At all. People won't give you angles to torp, all the cruisers will run hydro, and BBs don't tend to do much besides now tank, making their profiles hard to hit even if you can get the marker in the right spot. Additionally you almost never can just head to the contested cap and brawl it out. A radar from a Des Moines/Minotaur lasts too long to ride out, and if they chase you you won't be able to escape in time. Z-52 is the same problem.

So no capping until late, no reliable torpedoes until all the problem ships have been accounted for. That leaves you with two jobs, spotting and cap point rock humping when you have to. Neither of these give you enough xp to save your star. This leads to people who don't know better to ram their heads into the ground doing risky plays that might give them that xp, but usually get them dead, and people who do know what to do, but who can play other ships abandon the class. 

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On 8-5-2018 at 12:23 AM, Shadow_NA said:

all DD players. WHAT is with all the suiciding DD???

 

On 8-5-2018 at 1:10 AM, Lensar said:

amazing how little situational awareness they have. Little things, like understanding the spatial distances between ships, such as whether or not to chase that spotted CV. Or if they can get in and torp an enemy ship before nearby ships close the distance.

 

On 8-5-2018 at 1:51 AM, Crucis said:

I really don't like remaining static in this game.

 

Yea. I call this the suiciding DD server. Especially on high tiers it is extremely annoying since it is much more difficult to compensate for the power of those ships. Sometimes I think most most DDs keep regarding their dd as a storozevoi, even when they're in let's say a gearing.

As per Lensar, an absurd amount of DD players lack the most basics of situational awareness and/or basic game knowledge (which ships have radar/hydro, and the range & duration thereof)

Maybe more so, though of course just a guess, it might be psychological, as per Crucis' remark, as being indicative of an unwillingness to play tactical - which, in this game, means patiently.

 

I was so annoyed by the impossibility to carry in high tiers here because of total unreliable DD players, that I started DDs myself. And while I am a decent DD player, a lot of my DDs have at least 5% too high of a winrate.

I can't really speak of tX ranked - I only tried some Zao games and stopped because of what the OP mentioned. I don't have a tX DD yet, so this season I'll probably skip. I did continue my z23 and her captain grind on the t8 ranked though, which was too easy as well, especially given that that boat isn't the most competitive.

 

The "weird" behaviour of DDs is by far the most noticeable difference between EU/NA, and it severely limits the enjoyment of (solo) high tier games imho.

I'm not really surprised that other players will feel the same in ranked, because that forces non-DDs to be even more dependant upon their team's DDs than in randoms.

Edited by PzPz_EU

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On 5/7/2018 at 5:40 PM, Taichunger said:

DDs die for a lot of reasons -- water is filled with blind torps, the ridiculously stupid radars of the Russian bias bote and Des Memes (as bonus stupidity, they operate through islands making them immune to DD torps), BB AP flying in from afar to wreck them since many BB drivers can put shells on DDs from 15+ kms, hunter-killer packs of Gearings and Yueyangs, and high ROF cruisers in general. Teams prioritize killing DDs. Keeping a DD alive in Ranked is not easy. 

It’s not that hard either. It’s not like dd are turtle hatchlings under skies full of seagulls.

Knowing how deadly the environment is, after all it’s purely tier 10 death machines, should give pause to the notion of suicid capping in first 5 mins. I mean, come on, this is ranked. You get 20 mins to our score the reds by our capping or out killing them. Killing them is way more effective sooo be patient and work on that for a while.

One of a hundred ideas on being less suicidal... If capping is the only thing your brain is programmed for then consider spotting and waiting for red caps to be abandoned then sneak them while flanking in concealment.

  Every problem you listed can be worked around. 

Radar through islands, I’ll bite, is only a problem if you sit there with enemy cruises near by. When the larger, slower, less agile, easily spotted radar boat gets within 10km of your dd with (6km concealment) MOVE. If you hugging rocks too close to effectively spot then you screwing yourself and the team. You get lit without warning. That’s ok because you have an idiot indicator. As soon as the indicator gives you the “we’re lit mother trucker, time to gtfo” then you should prob be like “oh sh-t, i’m Lit and I better gtfo”.

dd working in packs is called doing it right.

yes everyone shoots the darned dd when they spotted. Dd are dangerous and you don’t get many chances to kill the smart ones.

i have seen my targeted indicator flashing 5 a few times while driving the z. Usually it’s some darn shima chilling 200 meters from concealment. With rdf and speed boost I can run him down. Without it I have to wasd my [edited] out of the hot zone.

If dd driver uses their brain, works cooperatively with the team and minds the minimap they can live much longer and be much more effective members of the team.

Edited by thebigblue

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Yes. Of course there are work arounds for some issues. I am simply pointing out that things are not as simple as it seems sometimes to people inexperienced in high tier DD play. Other players are also skilled and experienced and they are focused on killing the DD.

Edited by Taichunger

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8 minutes ago, Taichunger said:

Yes. Of course there are work arounds for some issues. I am simply pointing out that things are not as simple as it seems sometimes to people inexperienced in high tier DD play. Other players are also skilled and experienced and they are focused on killing the DD.

I totally agree with you on those points.

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