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Will the Italian cruisers be able to LOLPEN angled enemy cruisers like the USN ones with 8"/55?

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As we'll be seeing the Italian cruisers this year, I'm looking forward to playing the Regia Marina's CAs such as Trento (likely Tier 6), Bolzano (possibly Tier 7), and Zara (Tier 7 or 8 depending on balance). I've been having quite a good time in the Pensacola, she's fragile but the 8"/55 with USN AP murder enemy cruisers and can deal decent damage to broadside battleships. It makes me curious how the Italian 8" guns will perform in terms of accuracy, dispersion, and whether they'll have the same or similar LOLPEN ability and good ricochet angles like the USN 8"/55. Also, another aspect I like about the Pensacola and New Orleans are that they're essential CL hulls with CA guns when it comes to maneuverability. Relatively nimble ships compared to ones like Myoko and the Germans, and of course the Russians. In fact, when first commissioned, they were classified as CLs rather than CAs until the definition became based on armament rather than displacement. How will the Italian CAs perform in the maneuverability department compared to USN and other nations?

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I'm gonna doubt it.

The US 8" AP has the better penetration angles mostly as a compensation for their lack of torpedoes, and thus their dependence solely on guns for offensive ability.  The Italians will have torpedoes, so I can't see them getting the nicer pen angles, too.

 

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I suppose Italian will be a kind of less armoured but fast German CA. Garbage HE but railgun AP. Also these ship may have long range torps which is really questionable. Why these ship should have better torps range than IJN ships ? 

 

I also think they will equip both Hydro and Def AA unless WG decide to give a new gimmick for this line 

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they announced italian cruisers? i wouldn't bet on it, i have a feeling they want to do russian BB's first

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13 hours ago, AlcatrazNC said:

I suppose Italian will be a kind of less armoured but fast German CA. 

The Zara class was well armoured (for a cruiser). 

13 hours ago, AlcatrazNC said:

Why these ship should have better torps range than IJN ships ? 

They have more range, but with fewer torps, much worse damage and speed. More like "water mines" than torps

 

Edited by Xlap

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On 5/5/2018 at 7:25 AM, AlcatrazNC said:

I suppose Italian will be a kind of less armoured but fast German CA. Garbage HE but railgun AP. Also these ship may have long range torps which is really questionable. Why these ship should have better torps range than IJN ships ?

I heard that the shells have bad air drag so idk about the railgun AP

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Probably not.  Improved penetration angles usually come because some other aspect of the ship is lacking, such as torpedoes or HE.

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1 hour ago, crzyhawk said:

Probably not.  Improved penetration angles usually come because some other aspect of the ship is lacking, such as torpedoes or HE.

The italians are lacking both, they have water mines (water memes?) and the worst HE in the game :Smile-_tongue: jk:Smile-_tongue:

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Could be.  I am thinking if they have d'Aosta like maneuverability and speed, they're going to be like Pensacola on crack with those high velocity 203s

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I doubt they'll get the same special AP, or nearly as heavily buffed AP as the American's or Germans (Americans having better auto bounce angles and much better penetration than they should have, and Germans having buffed damage), but the 203mm AP should be very strong, with once exception.

To answer your specific questions;

 

Accuracy/Dispersion: All cruisers use pretty much the same sigma and dispersion pattern, so it really shouldn't have much of an effect.

Lolpen: All ships work on the same overmatch mechanic. Italian 203mm will most likely work on the same system.

Autobounce angles: Probably only going to be a USN thing, we'll have to see.

 

Maneuverability: Italian cruisers in terms of handling should be very good, and pretty much all the premiums have eluded to that as well. They'll all be quite fast - even the slowest (Zara) was able to make up to 34 knots in combat (this was really pushing the engines, however). In terms of turning, they all had quite good turning ability - Zara was actually one of the most maneuverable heavy cruisers to be built, due to her low L/B ratio. I would expect handling to reflect what we see with the current cruiser premiums - fast like the Russians, but good turners like the Americans.

 

AA as a whole I would expect to be a solid 'meh'.

 

The main guns for Italian heavy cruisers were their 203mm guns, the 203/50 Modello 1924 for the Trento-class, and the 203/53 Modello 1927 for the Zara and Bolzano classes (note, the Bolzano's technically had M1929's. Italian weapon designation went by the mounts used, not the gun by themselves. The M1929's turret was pretty much the same as the M1927 used on the Zara-class, but had less armor).


The Modello 1924 was a 50-caliber long weapon with a firing cycle of 18 seconds (3.33 rpm), the same as the American 8"/55 Mk.14. originally, it fired a 125.3 kg AP shell at 905mps, but because of dispersion issues (mostly due to the fact the guns were mounted in a common cradle), they were swapped out for 118 kg shells fired at 840mps. This was a major drop in performance, and turned the AP from briefly the strongest 8" AP in service (eclipsed by the German 20.3cm/60 Sk C/34, but this did not enter service until 1939, being designed in 1934), to one of the weakest. There's a good chance the Trento-class will come in at tier VI with the gun in this reduced form. AP damage with the original AP would be 4900, with reduced AP this would drop to 4600.

 

The Modello 1927 was a vastly improved weapon, a 53-caliber gun with a firing cycle of 16 seconds (3.8 rpm), but was also loadable at any angle, which meant that range of engagement did not limit the rate at which the gun could be fired (whereas most other 8" weapons would drop to 2-3 rpm at longer ranges for the maximum rate of fire). It's original performance was a 125.3 kg AP shell fired at 960mps, making it the strongest 8" gun to ever actually go into service (although other guns had better performance against deck armor due to less shallow angles of impact). Despite it's dispersion being better than the 203/50, it was still reduced (still in a common cradle mount) by lowering the muzzle velocity to only 900mps. Damage with the original velocity would be 5000, and drop to 4900 with the reduced velocity.

 

HE for both guns was a 110.57 kg shell with an 8.2 kg bursting charge fired at 940mps. This should yield 2700 damage with a 13% fire chance... but then again both the Japanese and French HE have 8.2 kg bursting charges, and get 17% and 15% fire chances, better than most 8" guns...


Generally speaking, RoF means very little in the game, especially among 203mm guns, so the low RoF of Italian guns on paper shouldn't be an issue.

For example; 

  • The 203/50 3rd year Type No.3 on Furutaka and Aoba were capable of 3 rpm (20 sec) at the most becuase their ammunition hoist couldn't manage more than that. Furutaka fires these guns at 4 rpm (15 sec) in-game (33% increase), and Aoba at an astonishing 5.45 rpm (11 sec) in-game (82% increase)
  • The same gun on later Japanese cruisers could make at best 4 rpm (15 sec), however currently Myoko runs on 4.3 rpm (14 sec) for a 7.5% increase - the rest all hit 4 rpm in-game at best, so they're as a whole 'well behaved'.
  • The 203/50 Mile 1924 used by French heavy cruisers, despite being designed for 5-6 rpm, and commonly cited at 4-5 rpm, could manage no more than 3-4 rpm (15 seconds at best). Algérie fires at a full 5 rpm (12 sec) in-game (25%) increase, however, and Martel and Saint Louis, using the upgraded 203/55 Mle 1934, fired at the full 6 rpm (10 seconds) intended.
  • The German 20.3cm/60 SK C/34 is pretty much the exact same story (design 5-6 rpm, commonly cited 4-5 rpm, 2.5-4 rpm being best in service). Hipper will soon be buffed to fire at 5.2 rpm (11.5 sec), a 30% increase. Later German cruisers with the same gun but in triple turrets hit the full 6 rpm/10 sec (50% increase).
  • The American 8"/55 Mk.14 (and its variants) could fire at 3.33 rpm (18 seconds) in real life. As of now Pensacola runs at 4 rpm (20%), New Orleans at 5 rpm (50%), and Indianapolis at 4.2 rpm (26%). The downtiered versions in development are also guilty, Salt Lake City at 4 rpm like Pensacola, and Astoria at 4.6 rpm (13 sec), a 38% increase.
  • The American 8"/55 Mk.15 could hit 4 rpm. Currently Baltimore gets 6 rpm (50%), and in her downtiered form she gets this same RoF. Buffalo hits 4.6 rpm (15%). 
  • The American 8"/55 Mk.16, used only on the three cruisers of the Des Moines-class, could hit 10 rpm (6 sec). In-game for some crazy reason WG decided to buff her to 10.9 rpm (5.5 sec), so she runs 9% over her real maximum RoF.

 

So, as you can see... RoF means little and more likely than not we'll see the Italian 203mm guns getting anywhere from 4 to 6 rpm based on tier.

 

Much of the line will be relatively poorly armored until tier VIII. Tier VI should see the first CA with Trento. She's got a 70mm belt, which is thin (70mm is average for her tier), but also tall and long, giving you a large area for the belt to be effective. A helpful trait of Italian cruisers is their excellent firing angles - all the heavy cruisers could fire their guns on a ±150º arc - so they can fire a full broadside at autobunce angles. The belt is largely ineffective against 203mm shells unless at autobounce angles, but against common lower-caliber guns at this tier it's protection breaks down as this at moderate angles for range at which it's penetrated (yay for wonky drag giving crazy pen at long range?);

 

Gun: 70mm/0º(70mm) 70mm/30º(80mm) 70mm/45º(99mm)
152/55 Mile 1930 - 18.4 km 14.0 km
6"/47 Mk.16 - - 14.2 km
6"/47 Mk.16 - 16.1 km 12.6 km
152mm/57 Pattern 1938 - 18.4 km 14.3 km
130mm/50 Pattern 1936 11.2 km 9.7 km 7.3 km
5"/38 Mk.12 8.1 km 7.2 km 5.8 km

 

As you can see, it's really nothing special, especially against some of the more powerful guns (for their caliber).

I'd expect Trento's top speed to range from 33 to 35 knots, and she should turn well, but also be the least maneuverable Italian heavy cruiser, as she was the longest.

I strongly suspect the guns will operate in the reduced 118 kg @ 840mps, so she'll have 203mm AP with performance between the other 8" guns at the tier, but unmatched HE velocity. RoF would only have to reach 4 rpm to match Aoba, so I suspect that's what we see.

 

Tier VII would likely go to Bolzano, which has pretty much the same armor scheme, but is faster (should be able to hit 36 knots, making her the fastest heavy cruiser in-game), and she's also shorter than Trento and should turn better. She uses the improved 203/53's, so her ballistics will probably be the reduced 900mps MV. This will still give her the strongest guns of tier VII, with the best penetration, and the HE will have the best velocity/time to target. She'll be second only to Myoko in health, but the armor will feel squishier a tier higher. Most cruisers of this tier have 5 rpm as their RoF, so I suspect she'd see something similar, 4.6 to 5 rpm.

 

Tier VIII is probably going to be Zara, the most heavily armored class of heavy cruiser of the war. The heavily armored successor to the Trento-class, the featured a main belt that was 150mm thick (the top 2/3's. The bottom third started at 150mm and thinned to 100mm at the bottom), and had a 30mm upper belt - an armor profile usually only found on tier IX cruisers. The speed of the class varied from what was put down on paper. While nominally 32 knots at their rated power of 95,000shp, in combat they often pushed their engines over their rated power, typically up to 108,957shp, giving a top speed over 33 knots - at the battle of Cape Spartivento, in fact, the cruisers of 1ª Divisione (barring Fiume, who could only make 28 knots due to propulsion issues) made 34 knots while sparring with British cruisers. Significantly shorter than the other heavy cruisers, the class had a very low L/B ratio for a cruiser and could turn very tightly. They were the first to use the 203/53, in the typical 4x2 layout of Italian CA's. 

The belt's resistance the following cruiser cruiser guns may be expressed as follows;

Gun: 150mm/0º(150m) 150mm/30º(173mm) 150mm/45º(212mm
8"/55 Mk.15 - 18.3 km 13.9 km
8"/55 Mk.14 16.8 km 14.2 km 11.2 km
203/55 Mle 1934 17.0 km 14.3 km 10.9 km
20cm/50 3d TY.2 14.8 km 12.5 km 9.6 km
20.3cm SK C/34 18.0 km 15.2 km 11.8 km
152mm/57 Pattern 1938 9.0 km 7.4 km 5.0 km
6"/47 Mk.16 8.4 km 6.7 km 4.3 km
6"/50 Mk.XXIII 8.1 km 6.6 km 4.5 km

 

So, very solid resistance against 152mm guns, and quite capable against 203mm guns as well. Remember, the Zara's can fire all eight guns at autobounce angles - so such an armor belt, especially as large and extensive as this, provides powerful protection.

The main guns, numbering eight, have an issue when it comes to being tier VIII. Despite the capable performance, (second only to the 20.3cm SK C/34 in performance historically), most cruisers of this tier have more guns and RoF. The other eight-gun cruisers, Hipper and Eugen, are currently getting buffed to 5.2 rpm, and 4.6 rpm + heal. I'm guessing in their reduced form Zara will need to be able to make at least 5 rpm, but perhaps with the original RoF it could be less than this.

 

Past this point, the most likely design for tier IX is an Ansaldo project for Spain, based on the Zara-class. It had a slightly improved armor scheme, a 3x3 main battery 55-caliber guns (so likely utilizing the original 960/940mps ballistics of the 203/53), an improved secondary battery... and it made 37 knots. 

 

Tier X, I'm not really sure. There was an Ansaldo project for Russia that was also to go 37 knots, with an armament of 3x3 254mm guns - or WG could just do a Hindenburg and invent a 203mm ship.

 

The important thing to remember is every line has a gimmick beyond what their historical stats suggest, and that can change things significantly. For example, ignoring raw RoF and turret traverse buffs;

 

  • Japanese CAs get large boosts to HE damage (+500) and fire chance (+4%)
  • American CAs get special autobounce angles for their AP, as well as much better penetration than they should have, plus radar. They also gain 27mm extremity armor at higher tiers
  • French CAs get better fire chance than they should (+2%), and come equipped with the speed boost consumable.
  • British CLs have special AP at the cost of HE, have hyper-maneuverability properties, a unique smoke, a heal at all tiers + superheats at high tiers, and radar
  • Russian CLs also get radar but otherwise are fairly 'vanilla'
  • German Cls & CAs get better AP damage (+800 on 150mm guns, +1000 on 203mm guns) at the cost of HE damage, but the effect is largely undone by their better HE penetration (50% better than normal HE). Their hydroacoustic search is also superior to other versions, and they gain 27mm extremity armor at higher tiers.

So it remains to be seen what an Italian line might see.

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11 hours ago, 901234 said:

I heard that the shells have bad air drag so idk about the railgun AP

 

I think only HE shell is affected by this air drag. While watching Flamu's review I think he mentioned something about AP being like a railgun 

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2 minutes ago, AlcatrazNC said:

 

I think only HE shell is affected by this air drag. While watching Flamu's review I think he mentioned something about AP being like a railgun 

Wouldn't expect AP shells to have that much better shell drag - if someone can numbers that would be nice

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52 minutes ago, 901234 said:

Wouldn't expect AP shells to have that much better shell drag - if someone can numbers that would be nice

Italian cruiser shells were typically 8crh - this basically comes right behind the Americans (9crh) and ahead of the British (5/10crh) in drag. 9crh gives values of .321-.322, 8rch values of around .325, and 5/10crh values of just under .33.

The main reason d'Aosta's shells have poor 'drag' actually has little to do with drag. 8crh is above average. The real issue is the shells are just light - 50 kg is on the lower end of 152mm AP, and so is the 44.3 kg HE for your average 152mm values.

Abruzzi's shells have a legitimate drag problem - at .3325, despite using the same shells at d'Aosta, this is significantly less drag, closer to a 7crh or 6crh value. Why WG decided to hit Abruzzi's AP this hard is still somewhat of a mystery.

 

The Italian 203mm shells should have similar drag, but shouldn't have the same weight issue. With 125.3 kg AP, this is on the heaver end of normal 203mm rounds - the German shells are 122kg, Japanese 125.85 kg, and American 118 kg. The 110.57 kg HE isn't exactly stellar as far as HE weight goes for this caliber, but nor is it excessively light or lacking in drag values. So little drag and weight won't hurt the 203mm guns that badly as far as normal guns do - they're still on the higher end of drag, and average in weight.

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On 5/5/2018 at 7:44 PM, HorrorRoach said:

they announced italian cruisers? i wouldn't bet on it, i have a feeling they want to do russian BB's first

British Destroyers, Italian cruisers, and I believe Russian Battleships. The only one I'm not sure of is the Russian Battleships, the others were in a Russian gaming magazine interview with WG.

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On 5/6/2018 at 11:08 PM, Phoenix_jz said:

Italian cruiser shells were typically 8crh - this basically comes right behind the Americans (9crh) and ahead of the British (5/10crh) in drag. 9crh gives values of .321-.322, 8rch values of around .325, and 5/10crh values of just under .33.

The main reason d'Aosta's shells have poor 'drag' actually has little to do with drag. 8crh is above average. The real issue is the shells are just light - 50 kg is on the lower end of 152mm AP, and so is the 44.3 kg HE for your average 152mm values.

Abruzzi's shells have a legitimate drag problem - at .3325, despite using the same shells at d'Aosta, this is significantly less drag, closer to a 7crh or 6crh value. Why WG decided to hit Abruzzi's AP this hard is still somewhat of a mystery.

 

The Italian 203mm shells should have similar drag, but shouldn't have the same weight issue. With 125.3 kg AP, this is on the heaver end of normal 203mm rounds - the German shells are 122kg, Japanese 125.85 kg, and American 118 kg. The 110.57 kg HE isn't exactly stellar as far as HE weight goes for this caliber, but nor is it excessively light or lacking in drag values. So little drag and weight won't hurt the 203mm guns that badly as far as normal guns do - they're still on the higher end of drag, and average in weight.

This is why I don't understand why the USN SHS don't get better drag values.  The USN made them long for a reason.

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