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SamB25Roberts

matchmaking is FUBAR

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First off I am a DD main.  I also play all types of ships.  Matchmaking will never be "FIXED" until LAZY WOW removes +/-2 tier restriction!   It was needed when player base was small.   Player base is fine now.  Now it is just cruel to players that get to be -2 ALL DAY LONG!!!  There are more than enough players to still have fast game load ins.  wth OVER!!!   75% of my matches are at -2 tier now across all game types except RANKED BATTLES.  This game is to be FUN!!!  NOT fun at this play level AT ALL!!!  Players say get good.  I am good.  Need to be GREAT to deal with this EVERY game.  Add in bad game mechanics where +2 tier ships detect my destroyers BEFORE I ever see them and I am absolutely screwed!  I have been detected in a destroyer by BATTLESHIPS before I see and can shoot at them!  WORKING AS INTENDED?  You NEED to think that out again!

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I'm not good, and it's hard to get good when my poor tier 8 Bismarck is up against tier 10 boats every battle. 

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Players have been complaining about this +2 -2 MM horsepuckey for over a year now and we've been studiously ignored. If the devs actually played the game they'd see how fd-up it is. It needs to be changed but I doubt that it ever will. And who knows how many new players have and will quit the game in frustration after hitting the +2 -2 wall at tier 5 with stock ships.

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28 minutes ago, ReddNekk said:

Players have been complaining about this +2 -2 MM horsepuckey for over a year now and we've been studiously ignored. If the devs actually played the game they'd see how fd-up it is. It needs to be changed but I doubt that it ever will. And who knows how many new players have and will quit the game in frustration after hitting the +2 -2 wall at tier 5 with stock ships.

I would have quit, but I was in the position to spend real money to move xp and not have a stock tier 8 boat, but without that the grind would have been stupid. And this isn't a knock on the long time players, but they target the lower tier boats right away, it has driven both my kids away from playing, they don't want to die every battle with no chance of making a difference. The only way they will play is at tier 3+4 now, that doesn't encourage growth in the game. 

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32 minutes ago, ReddNekk said:

If the devs actually played the game they'd see how fd-up it is.

https://worldofwarships.com/en/community/accounts/1006420190-Pigeon_of_War/!/pvp/overview/

A Developer and Administrator who played well above 3k battles in Randoms (not coun ting test ship stats). I think that some of the Devs do Play this game.

 

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WG doesn't care unless it hurts their bottom line.

As long as people keep paying for things in this game they won't change anything.

Your wallets do all the talking, or rather that seems to be WG's language. Speak with those.

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1 hour ago, SamB25Roberts said:

Matchmaking will never be "FIXED" until LAZY WOW removes +/-2 tier restriction!

This most certainly would NOT fix matchmaking; it's way more screwed up that that. As for +/-2 matchmaking, while I sympathize, it ain't gonna change. WoW likes plus 2 for a lot of reasons. One is that it makes players want to grind higher tiers so they can get better ships. This is tiers 5, 6, 7, and 8, by the way. Also, and this sounds cruel, WoW wants the bottom tier ships in every match so top tier players have someone to club. Told you that would sound cruel, and it is, but it's also true. Many players with great stats would be S.O.L. if they had to play against the same tier opponents (and even more hosed if they couldn't division). The wide tier spread insures that there are always targets in the game for stat mongering elitists to club down.

Think of it like team killing. While WoW SAYS they're against it, we all know they could eliminate it completely by simply not allowing team mates to damage team mates, like they have in certain operations. But they don't, they just say it's bad and slap an offender until his wrist is pink. Actions speak louder than words. Team killing is here to stay, and +/-2 is here to stay; get used to it.

And please don't assume that just because I understand something, I'm in favor of it. I would have no problems what-so-ever with +/-1 MM, have no issue with it at tier 4, have no issue with it at tier 9. It's just never going to happen.

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42 minutes ago, ReddNekk said:

Players have been complaining about this +2 -2 MM horsepuckey for over a year now and we've been studiously ignored. If the devs actually played the game they'd see how fd-up it is. It needs to be changed but I doubt that it ever will. And who knows how many new players have and will quit the game in frustration after hitting the +2 -2 wall at tier 5 with stock ships.

I think the real problem is the player base is about split 50/50 on +2/-2 matchmaking. One only has to look at the hundreds of threads, and thousands of posts on the subject to see how split we are. Wargaming said they looked at it and did not believe it was a problem. Personally I can not stand it and is a big reason why I don't bother grinding ship lines nor play PvP any more. I find grinding captains a better use of my time. WoWS bleeds players in the mid tiers and from the "I Quit" forum posts here and on Reddit and the negative reviews on Steam, matchmaking is is often cited as the reason. Wargaming said it wasn't a problem, well maybe it isn't a problem to them, it is to quite a few players/former players. I find it ironic that +2/-2 is "fair" for normal PvP play but isn't allowed for Ranked or Clan Wars. Heck it isn't allowed for the Kings of the Sea thingie either. I can only assume they do this to make a level playing field for all involved, hence they disprove their own logic. It is insane. 

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4 minutes ago, Taylor3006 said:

I think the real problem is the player base is about split 50/50 on +2/-2 matchmaking. One only has to look at the hundreds of threads, and thousands of posts on the subject to see how split we are. Wargaming said they looked at it and did not believe it was a problem. Personally I can not stand it and is a big reason why I don't bother grinding ship lines nor play PvP any more. I find grinding captains a better use of my time. WoWS bleeds players in the mid tiers and from the "I Quit" forum posts here and on Reddit and the negative reviews on Steam, matchmaking is is often cited as the reason. Wargaming said it wasn't a problem, well maybe it isn't a problem to them, it is to quite a few players/former players. I find it ironic that +2/-2 is "fair" for normal PvP play but isn't allowed for Ranked or Clan Wars. Heck it isn't allowed for the Kings of the Sea thingie either. I can only assume they do this to make a level playing field for all involved, hence they disprove their own logic. It is insane. 

WG also doesn't allow CVs in Clan Battles because they're overpowered for 7 player teams yet WG does allow them in Ranked which has the same sized teams. The only thing that's consistent about WG is their inconsistentcy.

29 minutes ago, SireneRacker said:

https://worldofwarships.com/en/community/accounts/1006420190-Pigeon_of_War/!/pvp/overview/

A Developer and Administrator who played well above 3k battles in Randoms (not coun ting test ship stats). I think that some of the Devs do Play this game.

 

I'm glad see that at least one dev plays but are there any others? BTW, I don't mind being proven wrong.

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1 hour ago, SamB25Roberts said:

First off I am a DD main.  I also play all types of ships.  Matchmaking will never be "FIXED" until LAZY WOW removes +/-2 tier restriction!   It was needed when player base was small.   Player base is fine now.  Now it is just cruel to players that get to be -2 ALL DAY LONG!!!  There are more than enough players to still have fast game load ins.  wth OVER!!!   75% of my matches are at -2 tier now across all game types except RANKED BATTLES.  This game is to be FUN!!!  NOT fun at this play level AT ALL!!!  Players say get good.  I am good.  Need to be GREAT to deal with this EVERY game.  Add in bad game mechanics where +2 tier ships detect my destroyers BEFORE I ever see them and I am absolutely screwed!  I have been detected in a destroyer by BATTLESHIPS before I see and can shoot at them!  WORKING AS INTENDED?  You NEED to think that out again!

When you write this without it looking like something a dyslexic kid who learned English three days ago scrawled across a bathroom wall in finger paint, I'll read it. But jesus, the punctuation, the random capslock...I almost can't get past that to read your whiny complaints. 

Not to mention it looks like the vast majority of your battles are in tiers 3-5. Tiers 3 and 4 only see +/-1 MM anyway. Tier 5 is bottom tier more than other tiers because of the protected MM for tiers 3 and 4. So I'm a bit confused here. 

And, honestly, there is no BB, of any build, that can detect a DD before that DD detects them. Doesn't matter how you build the BB and DD, from camo to capt skills to upgrades, the most visible DD in the game (Khabarovsk) can see the stealthiest BB in the game at least 1km before the BB can see them. And you don't even own a Khabarovsk. For most DDs, you have a 5-6km window, at least, where you can see a BB but a BB can't spot you (assuming you're not spotted by someone else and you're not firing.) The only way a BB can spot you and you can't spot them is if you're in smoke or behind an island near a German BB or Duke of York and they hydro you, or you're near a Missouri and they radar you. That's it. 

Suck less. Whine less. And ffs learn to write intelligibly. 

Edited by poeticmotion
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“I am good” though you get detected first in a DD before you detect the BB?

Are you referring to the spotting mechanics they are currently working on or don’t you know how concealment works out?

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16 hours ago, Taylor3006 said:

I think the real problem is the player base is about split 50/50 on +2/-2 matchmaking. One only has to look at the hundreds of threads, and thousands of posts on the subject to see how split we are. Wargaming said they looked at it and did not believe it was a problem.

It's not a problem... for WG. 

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Oh dear lord this is, what, the third MM gripe thread this week? What problems do people think that +/-1 MM would solve that +/- 2 doesn't have? This is a serious question, because if it does get implemented I'll tell you what will happen: The current power curve? That progression of how much better ships get with each tier to encourage people to move up? That's going out the window, and the one that replaces it is going to be even steeper. So now instead of a tier 6 being able to hold their own and even beat a 7 with some skill and luck while being stomped by an 8 9 out of 10 times, the tier 6 will just get stomped by the 7 most of time. GG, well played. Now we've got a REAL brick wall of a skill barrier to cross.

Look guys I agree that MM isn't perfect. It give matches that are somewhat off-kilter more often then not (hence my frequent "go home MM, you're sober" jokes when it actually gives a decent well balanced match), but it's improving. Slowly but surely, yes, but it is improving. What would a massive change like +/- 1 really do to the meta? To the game? It would radically change the whole dynamic of WoWs, it could potentially cause more problems than it was trying to solve. Changes like same-tier divisioning? Mirror MM? Those are good, those are steps in the right direction that don't leap without looking. Could MM use more balance for how often a player is the clubber rather than the clubbee? I'd say so, but that's hard to get right and any system like that won't work 100% of the time to everyone's satisfaction. Still, the bell curve does need some adjustment.

Is MM perfect? No, but can people at least reflect a little on what it was and how much worse it COULD BE if things aren't handled properly before starting these threads? Please? If for nothing else then for my liquor cabinet and the sake of my liver because I'm fresh out from the last week of the WoWs Forum Drinking Game.

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1 hour ago, xalmgrey said:

WG doesn't care unless it hurts their bottom line.

As long as people keep paying for things in this game they won't change anything.

Your wallets do all the talking, or rather that seems to be WG's language. Speak with those.

Absolutely yep.

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43 minutes ago, Landsraad said:

"snipped for brevity"

Well all that is great assumptions, there is no data that supports things getting worse. Games that have level playing fields for players is kind of the norm. WoWS balances ships by tier, not by what ships they may encounter. Seems silly to bother to balance them then toss out that very balance. The fact we are losing players because they feel they are at an unfair disadvantage is that, a fact, not an assumption. Players like me who just quit playing PvP and have zero incentive to get to higher tiers is another fact that is counter to your argument. There is zero data that supports your assertion that players would have a more difficult time if they implemented +1/-1. Personally I can not even understand how you even think that would happen… The fact +2/-2 isn't allowed for Ranked, CW, or Chicken of the Sea says that Wargaming KNOWS it isn't fair, it isn't a level playing field and it puts some players at a disadvantage. All these things are demonstrable facts based on data. No assumptions, no feels, just what is reality based. The only thing I can agree with you about is that it could be worse. If we keep losing players we could end up with +3/-3 matchmaking to keep the queues full. 

Edit: I missed your point about same tier divisions, I agree with that as well. 

Edited by Taylor3006

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1 hour ago, ReddNekk said:

WG also doesn't allow CVs in Clan Battles because they're overpowered for 7 player teams yet WG does allow them in Ranked which has the same sized teams. The only thing that's consistent about WG is their inconsistentcy.

Pure opinion bud. KOTS is a 9v9 cw style fight and CV's are played. The problem with CV's is not how OP they are but how broken the ships are. (my opinion.) Could also be the fact that a good CV player is just hard to find.

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2 hours ago, SamB25Roberts said:

First off I am a DD main.  I also play all types of ships.  Matchmaking will never be "FIXED" until LAZY WOW removes +/-2 tier restriction!   It was needed when player base was small.   Player base is fine now.  Now it is just cruel to players that get to be -2 ALL DAY LONG!!!  There are more than enough players to still have fast game load ins.  wth OVER!!!   75% of my matches are at -2 tier now across all game types except RANKED BATTLES.  This game is to be FUN!!!  NOT fun at this play level AT ALL!!!  Players say get good.  I am good.  Need to be GREAT to deal with this EVERY game.  Add in bad game mechanics where +2 tier ships detect my destroyers BEFORE I ever see them and I am absolutely screwed!  I have been detected in a destroyer by BATTLESHIPS before I see and can shoot at them!  WORKING AS INTENDED?  You NEED to think that out again!

https://na.wows-numbers.com/player/1014830114,SamB25Roberts/

You are carried most of your games. DD's being stealthy should have no really issue being up tiered, you sir just need to get better at them.

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3 hours ago, SamB25Roberts said:

First off I am a DD main.  I also play all types of ships.  Matchmaking will never be "FIXED" until LAZY WOW removes +/-2 tier restriction!   It was needed when player base was small.   Player base is fine now.  Now it is just cruel to players that get to be -2 ALL DAY LONG!!!  There are more than enough players to still have fast game load ins.  wth OVER!!!   75% of my matches are at -2 tier now across all game types except RANKED BATTLES.  This game is to be FUN!!!  NOT fun at this play level AT ALL!!!  Players say get good.  I am good.  Need to be GREAT to deal with this EVERY game.  Add in bad game mechanics where +2 tier ships detect my destroyers BEFORE I ever see them and I am absolutely screwed!  I have been detected in a destroyer by BATTLESHIPS before I see and can shoot at them!  WORKING AS INTENDED?  You NEED to think that out again!

Oh look another stupid MM whine thread; 

2oDMSK7.gif

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3 minutes ago, Taylor3006 said:

Well all that is great assumptions, there is no data that supports things getting worse. Games that have level playing fields for players is kind of the norm. WoWS balances ships by tier, not by what ships they may encounter. Seems silly to bother to balance them then toss out that very balance. The fact we are losing players because they feel they are at an unfair disadvantage is that, a fact, not an assumption. Players like me who just quit playing PvP and have zero incentive to get to higher tiers is another fact that is counter to your argument. There is zero data that supports your assertion that players would have a more difficult time if they implemented +1/-1. Personally I can not even understand how you even think that would happen… The fact +2/-2 isn't allowed for Ranked, CW, or Chicken of the Sea says that Wargaming KNOWS it isn't fair, it isn't a level playing field and it puts some players at a disadvantage. All these things are demonstrable facts based on data. No assumptions, no feels, just what is reality based. The only thing I can agree with you about is that it could be worse. If we keep losing players we could end up with +3/-3 matchmaking to keep the queues full. 

CW and Ranked are special modes meant to be competitive though, they're the NFL to random's "bunch of random guys with a ball in a field", it's not supposed to be as well balanced, it's supposed to be the "let's take out our boats and screw around" mode. And okay, maybe my opening was a bit of an overreaction, but let's look at one of your own points: "WoWS balances ships by tier" and how do they balance tiers? Well tier 8 needs to be better than 7 and a lot better than 6, but not as good as 9 and a lot worse than 10. It's a gradient. Limiting the scale to +/- 1 will make the differences more pronounced, the imbalances of tier v. tier more pronounced.

My the main point I want to get across is that +/-1 MM is taking a sledgehammer to the problem and could be more trouble than it's worth in the long term, while smaller more incremental and more CONTROLLABLE changes in the same line as Mirror MM, same tier divisioning, and simply balancing out bottom/top tier matches could do exactly what players like you and the OP really seem to want.

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4 minutes ago, Fog_Repair_Ship_Akashi said:

Oh look another stupid MM whine thread; 

Yeah memes and nasty comments make for a fine supportive argument… (insert eye-roll here)

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12 minutes ago, Landsraad said:

CW and Ranked are special modes meant to be competitive though, they're the NFL to random's "bunch of random guys with a ball in a field", it's not supposed to be as well balanced, it's supposed to be the "let's take out our boats and screw around" mode. And okay, maybe my opening was a bit of an overreaction, but let's look at one of your own points: "WoWS balances ships by tier" and how do they balance tiers? Well tier 8 needs to be better than 7 and a lot better than 6, but not as good as 9 and a lot worse than 10. It's a gradient. Limiting the scale to +/- 1 will make the differences more pronounced, the imbalances of tier v. tier more pronounced.

My the main point I want to get across is that +/-1 MM is taking a sledgehammer to the problem and could be more trouble than it's worth in the long term, while smaller more incremental and more CONTROLLABLE changes in the same line as Mirror MM, same tier divisioning, and simply balancing out bottom/top tier matches could do exactly what players like you and the OP really seem to want.

If you are saying that normal PvP is not supposed to be a competitive match, I would bet there are lots of players who disagree with that. Since skill based MM is off the table, tier based MM should be the standard. Your own argument about balance is exactly my point. Tier 7 is only marginally better than tier 6 but it is much better than tier 5. Thus the advantage (assuming everything else is equal) goes to the higher tier ship. That isn't fair and in most games that would be considered cheating. Using your NFL analogy and defense of two tier difference, it would be like a NFL team playing a college team. The college kids MAY win but they are at a distinct disadvantage normally. Course a real sucky NFL team up against a championship college team could level it a bit but we are talking about full grown athletes versus college students. My point about +1/-1 is that the difference is NOT so pronounced as it is with +2/-2. 

For me personally it is a moot point, no matchmaking changes will get me to play PvP. I only go there to farm rewards or to complete campaign missions. I have far too much fun in PvE to subject myself to the static, boring mess that PvP has become especially at higher tiers. I do understand the OP's frustration as I encountered the same thing and is what turned me to a PvE player. A buddy of mine who I have played online games with since the 1990's , quit playing WoWS as soon as he played his first match in a tier 6 ship so I could get the recruiting rewards and has never played another game since. 

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2 hours ago, ReddNekk said:

I'm glad see that at least one dev plays but are there any others? BTW, I don't mind being proven wrong.

Mezurashi is fairly active with 2.8k Random Battles.

Sub_Octavian on his Russian account (because afaik he is a Russian dev) is approaching 3k. 

The_Chieftain is from what I know the most addicted one with close to 5k.

Gneisenau013 has 3.8k, so also very active in-game.

wacko17 with 1.8k games imo is also in the category of playing the game.

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39 minutes ago, Taylor3006 said:

Yeah memes and nasty comments make for a fine supportive argument… (insert eye-roll here)

Considering I have seen this idiotic topic at least 30 times on this fourm, I have every right to be sarcastic. 

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