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Last few Captain skills- Need advice

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My typical dd captain skill build is:

Preventative Maintenance over Priority target (If I am spotted I am being shot at)

Last Stand

Survivability Expert

Concealment Expert

then Radio Location.

Now I have a quandary...  I know that premium consumables makes Superintendent unnecessary in most matches, so I don't even consider it anymore.

I am left with Basic Fire Training, Torpedo Reload, or Demolition Expert.

Here lately I am leaning away from Torpedo Reload- even for torpedo boats like the Shima...  So that brings it down to BFT and Demo Expert...  sooo...

TL:DR

What does better damage with Adrenaline Rush?  Basic Fire Training or Demolition Expert?

5ae9d9122ea0c_skillchoices.thumb.jpg.c078ee3f19418e8f14cb1b0b4ee20aee.jpg

 

Edited by Torpin

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Some of these choices depend on what DD or DD line you are talking about. You mentioned Shima, are you talking IJN?

US DDs don't need EM. IJN (and Russian) probably do.

Ships that rarely get to fire torps don't need the torpedo reload skill.

Ships that rarely fire their guns (player style as much as ship capabilities) won't benefit as much from BFT or even DE. If you plan on using your guns a lot in the Shima, better buff them.

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It would help if you told us what ship you are referring to

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2 minutes ago, Sabot_100 said:

Some of these choices depend on what DD or DD line you are talking about. You mentioned Shima, are you talking IJN?

US DDs don't need EM. IJN (and Russian) probably do.

Ships that rarely get to fire torps don't need the torpedo reload skill.

Ships that rarely fire their guns (player style as much as ship capabilities) won't benefit as much from BFT or even DE. If you plan on using your guns a lot in the Shima, better buff them.

What I have found playing ranked is at tier 10 (and I have two 17 point captains- one for my z-52 and one for my Gearing) is that torpedoes are just not a consistent source of damage at this skill level.  They are often dodged by bb's using priority target and vigilance or by using Hydro.  

So the only consistent forms of damage are guns and fire setting.  

With that being said I know that Adrenaline rush is a MUST, and am trying to figure out which gives more damage per minute- BFT or Demo Expert.  I plan on using this build for ALL of my dd's...  except maybe switching out expert marksmanship on my extremely slow moving turret boats like the IJN or Russian dd's...

 

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4 minutes ago, STINKWEED_ said:

It would help if you told us what ship you are referring to

Gearing, z-52, and YueYang...  Gearing and Yueyang are almost the same boat :)

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Hmmm,  most of my DD's are IJN with stealth and reload builds. I don't think I would be helpful. Those two ships are more gunboats than anything I believe. 

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Don't have the ships but I have heard Torpedo Acceleration on Gearing is a pretty good skill to get. My guess it's the same at Yueyang.

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13 minutes ago, Torpin said:

trying to figure out which gives more damage per minute- BFT or Demo Expert. 

Demo Expert has the advantage of ongoing damage, even if BFT gives better DPM. The fire-and-forget nature is a plus. You can shoot until you light a target on fire, then hide and continue to rack up damage. Same if you light one target, then switch to another. You get "free" damage. However, if you are planning on winning gunfights with other DDs, BFT will help kill them faster than they kill you. BFT may also help your AA.

A factor I didn't consider however is that you are putting out 10% more shells. Have to do the math if this actually gives you a better fire chance over time.

Edited by Sabot_100
new thought

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1 hour ago, Sabot_100 said:

A factor I didn't consider however is that you are putting out 10% more shells. Have to do the math if this actually gives you a better fire chance over time.

Excellent- did the math (I think):

Gearing/Yueyang  3s reload and 5% fire chance

z-52 4s reload and 7% fire chance

with Basic Fire Training:

Gearing/Yueyang 2.7s reload gives you 22 shots per minute with a grand total of 110% cumulative fire chance per minute if all shots land.

z-52 3.6s reload gives you ~17 shots per minute with a grand total of 119% cumulative fire chance per minute if all shots land.

with Demolition Expert:

Gearing/Yueyang 3s reload gives you 20 shots per minute with a grand total of 140% cumulative fire chance per minute if all shots land.

z-52 4s reload gives you 15 shots per minute with a grand total of 135% cumulative fire chance per minute if all shots land.

Total dpm for Gearing/Yueyang not including fire with H/E with BFT: 1800* 22= 39600

and without BFT 1800* 20= 36000

Total dpm for z-52 not including fire with H/E with BFT:  1500* 17= 25500

and without BFT 1500* 15= 22500

I guess the real question should be is how much is fire damage?

Edited by Torpin

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I wouldn't take DE on any DD unless you're using a niche build with many tier 3 captain skills. If you only have two, SE is #1 always. #2 is typically between SI or BFT for gunboats, or TAE for torp boats. On my Gearing and Z-52, I'm going SI as more hydro is more better, and I'm sharing my Gearing captain with Kidd that has heals. But Gearing and Kidd work well with BFT, so I'm still up in the air there. On Grozovoi, the BFT/AFT combo is a must. Just don't take AFT on any non russian DD ever.

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2 hours ago, Torpin said:

I guess the real question should be is how much is fire damage?

Depends on your target as it is a percentage of health. So not so much for a burning DD (which burns for a shorter time anyway) vs a BB. BBs get fire chance reduction (I think) so the effective chances aren't quite what you computed. As I mentioned, fire has the advantage of doing damage even after you stop firing or even if you are killed (Flesh Wound!) and will hurt ships you can't penetrate with HE or AP. I can shoot a Yamato doing no to minimal damage and end up knocking 17,000 pts off him if he doesn't use a repair.

DE on an Akizuki is a must as fire is one of you main damage methods and IFHE knocks your fire chances down. Akizuki is not Gearing however.

Looked it up: Higher tier (type not important) ships have better fire resistance.

Damage dealt by each instance of fire on a ship is fixed as 0.3% of its total health pool per fire per second (0.4% for aircraft carriers).

[Fire Resistance Coefficient] x ( 1 - [Damage Control Modification 1] - [Fire Prevention] ) x ( [Projectile Base Fire Chance] + [Demolition Expert] + [Signals] - [Inertial Fuse for HE Shells]) = Fire Chance

Edited by Sabot_100
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I think I have answered my own question- looking at the fire chance difference (110%  BFT to 140% DE) and the damage difference (39600 BFT to 36000 DE) that Basic Fire Training is the clear winner.  

With BFT you reach 100% chance of fire per cannon after 54s.  With 6 cannons theoretically you should hit 100% after (6 cannons x 5%= 30% per volley) so a little over 3 volleys if all shots land, for a total of 2.7s x 3 volleys = 8.1 seconds.  Of course, not all six shots land on target so the time goes WAY UP unless you are hitting a bb and landing all your shots...

With DE you reach 100% chance of fire per cannon after 36s.  With 6 cannons you should hit 100% after (6 cannons x 7%= 42% per volley) so a little over 2 volleys if all shots land for a total of 3s x 2.4 volleys = 7.2 seconds.

0.9 seconds difference in fire chance between DE and BFT is negligible whereas the dpm is more substantial imho.

Edited by Torpin

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Checking that formula, DE adds about 1% to you fire chance vs Tier X (B hull) opponents. Fire chances are only half of what I thought they were at that tier. Mind you, that 1% could still be a big increase in fire chance for small caliber guns since effective fire chances can be in the 2-3% range depending on fire modules and captains skills of the target. No wonder it is so hard to light fires at that tier.

Fire resistance by tier. So T10s cut fire chances by at least half.

Ship Tier Fire Resistance Coefficient
WowsshipclassDestroyerDefault.pngWowsshipclassCruiserDefault.pngWowsshipclassBattleshipDefault.png (Stock Hull)
Fire Resistance Coefficient
WowsshipclassDestroyerDefault.pngWowsshipclassCruiserDefault.pngWowsshipclassBattleshipDefault.png (Top Hull)
Fire Resistance Coefficient
WowsshipclassAirCarrierDefault.png
Tier I 1.0000 N/A
Tier II
Tier III 1.0000 0.9667
Tier IV 0.9334 0.9001 0.8000
Tier V 0.8668 0.8335
Tier VI 0.8002 0.7669
Tier VII 0.7336 0.7003
Tier VIII 0.6670 0.6337
Tier IX 0.6004 0.5671
Tier X 0.5338 0.5005
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1 hour ago, Sabot_100 said:

Damage dealt by each instance of fire on a ship is fixed as 0.3% of its total health pool per fire per second (0.4% for aircraft carriers).

So if a battleship fire lasts 60 seconds, then total damage is is .3% x 60 =18% of total health pool.  The Montana having 96,300 that would be 17,334 potential damage from one fire.

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1 hour ago, Torpin said:

So if a battleship fire lasts 60 seconds, then total damage is is .3% x 60 =18% of total health pool.  The Montana having 96,300 that would be 17,334 potential damage from one fire

That's the way I read it. So if your gun targets are primarily BBs (CAs burn for less time as do DDs) then starting fires is a major source of damage. Lighting one up just after it has burned a repair is optimum. If your main targets are CAs  then fires will be less lucrative. For DD targets, it is often insignificant, but it has the secondary effect of raising their concealment range so they can't go dark as easy. Still, if you spread the love around (and have a half decent chance to start fires) you can farm damage from multiple ships at one time.  You can get extra damage from every ship you fire at, not just the one you are shooting at now. That's why HE firing BBs are such a scourge. Half their per-shell chance can still be 18% so they can keep a target burning constantly. HE spamming CAs make up for it in volume of fire, especially the CLs.

Flooding does the same but is harder to achieve (torp hits are much harder to get but the chance per hit is very high) but does more damage. I didn't know (until I just read the wiki) that flooding slows your ship by 15-20%. You can only have 1 flood at a time, regardless of how many torps hit and cause flooding.

Flooding damage reduces a ship's health by 0.667% of its total health pool per second. If a flood is not controlled (see below) and is allowed to run for its full duration, a ship will lose just over 60% of its total health pool to a single flood. Flooding has a base duration of 90 seconds.

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For the upper-tier German DDs, I'd actually vote for SI over BFT or DE.

Having an extra smoke and hydro, even if you run premium consumables, is REALLY helpful. Burning through 4 smokes in a Z-23/46/52 is very possible in even a mid-duration match, because they don't last.  And especially with the Z-52, the extra hydro really, really helps.

Basically, SI for German DDs allows you to be far more aggressive and push to get that extra damage and kills. It also allows you more opportunity to do the favorite German tactic:  torp, smoke up, run hydro, blap away for 60 seconds with the guns, torp again, and then RUN. 

This is incredibly powerful, and very deadly, especially in late-game where stuff is heavily wounded.

SI in the German DDs gives you a far greater OPPORTUNITY to cause damage, much more than the mild buff to guns or torps that DE/BFT/TAE would.

 

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Lol, you math guys are great. I just shoot the red stuff at the ship thing and hope for the flame stuff. Actually it was some good reading that helped me decide, for me, that BFT is the choice I’m making. I would rather have the ROF which can be useful against all targets. If the target is damaged saturated that would also enter into the equation. Thanks guys.

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