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Japanese CL line?

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I love light cruisers, I make no secret of this fact. So with the USN cruiser split upcoming and RN fans asking about heavy cruisers for Britannia I got to thinking, is there enough material to make a light cruiser line for Japan? The Japanese line is known for liking big guns and not lying, what with the Furutaka being the lowest tier tech tree heavy cruiser in-game, but what did the Japanese have in terms of light cruisers? Mogami would certainly be a candidate for the line with her 15 gun layout, in fact you could make a pretty good argument for Mogami being a shared ship between the two lines if a full split was made, or a merge point for a small branch from tier 5 to 7.

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Well lets see, 

You have the Agano's with six 6 inch guns at 7,500 tons.

There's the Oyodo, somewhat larger at 11,000 tons, much better AA but the same main battery.

And that's pretty much it and least of any in the post Kuma type of design.  You might be able to find some paper designs but the IJN was pretty much married to the 8 inch gun and converted all of their modern light cruisers, like the Mogami into heavy cruisers as soon as the London treat was abrogated.  I don't really think you have much to work with.

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Quote myself because why not

 

Quote

 [Iwaki Alpha] could be a decent template for IJN CLs - whereas the Russian line is DDs that are super-light cruisers, these should be CLs that are super-heavy DDs.

  • Small number of moderately fast-firing guns (something like the Oyodo only has 3x2)
  • Give it the ability to stealth torp (Iwaki has 8.6k stealth and 10k torps)
  • Give it IJN smoke: you can use it for protection or to start fires, but your DPM isn't enough to make it crazy
  • It should still have a citadel
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Super heavy DDs...... With citidels...... More food for my hungy BB :) 

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I would rather not see IJN CLs because CAs are their identify like CLs are the RN's identify. Being exclusive to one gives these 2 lines a nice and unique flavor.

The US cruiser split gives us high tier CLs with HE which makes them different from the RN. IJN CLs would probably be just like the US CLs but with slightly flatter archs, slightly less penetration, and a slightly higher fire chance.

Actually you know what, I might have just talked myself into wanting an IJN CL line. I am so confused :cap_fainting:

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2 hours ago, BB3_Oregon_Steel said:

Well lets see, 

You have the Agano's with six 6 inch guns at 7,500 tons.

There's the Oyodo, somewhat larger at 11,000 tons, much better AA but the same main battery.

And that's pretty much it and least of any in the post Kuma type of design.  You might be able to find some paper designs but the IJN was pretty much married to the 8 inch gun and converted all of their modern light cruisers, like the Mogami into heavy cruisers as soon as the London treat was abrogated.  I don't really think you have much to work with.

You also have the Agano-kai design which was finalized and scheduled to be laid down at the Mitsubishi yards but canceled to make way for more Destroyers. It's basically the IJN Leander with more torpedo's to be frank.

13 minutes ago, MasterDiggs said:

I would rather not see IJN CLs because CAs are their identify like CLs are the RN's identify. Being exclusive to one gives these 2 lines a nice and unique flavor.

The US cruiser split gives us high tier CLs with HE which makes them different from the RN. IJN CLs would probably be just like the US CLs but with slightly flatter archs, slightly less penetration, and a slightly higher fire chance.

Actually you know what, I might have just talked myself into wanting an IJN CL line. I am so confused :cap_fainting:

Eventually their CL designs will come in, but there is a lot of speculation that they will end up as most likely premiums and there is a strong possibility that the RN are getting a full CA line later on. The IJN can really only add in Agano and Agano-Kai into the tree at tier 5/6 outside of placing the Sendai class at tier 4 parallel to Kuma. I have a feeling most would prefer the Nagara over Sendai due to Sendai having rear facing torpedo tubes.

To the OP about Mogami being tier 7. It was in Alpha, and to be honest most people would prefer Takao at tier 8 in the tree due to the forward torpedo laid-out; however, since they dropped Atago I don't see that happening. Even with the return to Mogami's historical triple torpedo tubes the 15.5cm guns at tier 7 with the rework would be quite potent against tier 5 vessels and that's probably the biggest issue.

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22 minutes ago, Azumazi said:

You also have the Agano-kai design which was finalized and scheduled to be laid down at the Mitsubishi yards but canceled to make way for more Destroyers. It's basically the IJN Leander with more torpedo's to be frank.

Eventually their CL designs will come in, but there is a lot of speculation that they will end up as most likely premiums and there is a strong possibility that the RN are getting a full CA line later on. The IJN can really only add in Agano and Agano-Kai into the tree at tier 5/6 outside of placing the Sendai class at tier 4 parallel to Kuma. I have a feeling most would prefer the Nagara over Sendai due to Sendai having rear facing torpedo tubes.

To the OP about Mogami being tier 7. It was in Alpha, and to be honest most people would prefer Takao at tier 8 in the tree due to the forward torpedo laid-out; however, since they dropped Atago I don't see that happening. Even with the return to Mogami's historical triple torpedo tubes the 15.5cm guns at tier 7 with the rework would be quite potent against tier 5 vessels and that's probably the biggest issue.

I have a hard time seeing an IJN  CL line, largely because it would have more truly paper or fictional ships than it'd have real, actually built ship.  Mind you, I'm no purist on this point.  But if the devs were willing to forego their usual requirement that every line end with a tier 10, I could see a truncated CL line, possibly ending with a light cruiser only version of the Mogami, though if that was at tier 7, her turrets might end up with their old, horrid traverse speed.  And perhaps then what you might see is a tier 7 heavy cruiser version of the Mogami as a premium. 

I could also see the Takao as the tier 8 CA as a replacement for the Mogami, because after all, we have the Hipper class and the Prinz Eugen both at tier 8 in the German cruiser line.  Admittedly, this would be a smidge different due to the premium coming before the regular cruiser, but that doesn't mean that it couldn't be done.  How would a regular tech tree (TT) Takao differ from the Atago?  Well, taking a page from the recent Hipper/Eugen buffs, the TT Takao could have a faster reload and lose the Atago's Repair party, while the Atago would remain as is (with the slower reload and the Repair party).  Of course, that may be considered too derivative and not original, but it's a starting point.

Also, there'd be no reason why they couldn't just have this tier 7 Mogami CL merge into the IJN CA line with the next in its line being the tier 8 CA Takao, the same tier 8 that the T7 CA Myoko would connect to.

 

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We have a great IJN light cruiser/gunboat line - it ends with the Akizuki at Tier 8 and WG is adding a Tier 9 & 10 "soon".

These are a little bigger and slower than the IJN DD's, have great guns, decent torps, good stealth, smoke, etc...

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1 hour ago, Crucis said:

I have a hard time seeing an IJN  CL line, largely because it would have more truly paper or fictional ships than it'd have real, actually built ship.  Mind you, I'm no purist on this point.  But if the devs were willing to forego their usual requirement that every line end with a tier 10, I could see a truncated CL line, possibly ending with a light cruiser only version of the Mogami, though if that was at tier 7, her turrets might end up with their old, horrid traverse speed.  And perhaps then what you might see is a tier 7 heavy cruiser version of the Mogami as a premium. 

I could also see the Takao as the tier 8 CA as a replacement for the Mogami, because after all, we have the Hipper class and the Prinz Eugen both at tier 8 in the German cruiser line.  Admittedly, this would be a smidge different due to the premium coming before the regular cruiser, but that doesn't mean that it couldn't be done.  How would a regular tech tree (TT) Takao differ from the Atago?  Well, taking a page from the recent Hipper/Eugen buffs, the TT Takao could have a faster reload and lose the Atago's Repair party, while the Atago would remain as is (with the slower reload and the Repair party).  Of course, that may be considered too derivative and not original, but it's a starting point.

Also, there'd be no reason why they couldn't just have this tier 7 Mogami CL merge into the IJN CA line with the next in its line being the tier 8 CA Takao, the same tier 8 that the T7 CA Myoko would connect to.

 

Truth be told, during Alpha a lot of us that could were scouring archives and trying to find sources for what originally many of us wanted which was the following.

Myoko->Takao-> (merge at tier 9) - Zao

Mogami->Ibuki->(merge at tier 9) - Zao

Now, the issue with the above was that none of us could find anything to fit at tier 9. There were supposedly studies done before B-65 was started with a 12500, 15000, and 17000 ton cruiser but none of us could find anything on any of it. The Zao with the magazine article was the closest and since it seemed to fit in line with the 15000 concept, we ran with it.

Basically, to make it fit better the line got changed up and it's been that way since unfortunately. Now, they could just make up one to replace tier 9 like they did for Germany, but I don't see that happening any time soon.

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Let us also not forget that Kuma CL variant the Kitakami...

With the fears of increased punishments and the new punishment system I would say the fears of Kitakami being used primarily as a Team Killer can be put to rest. Although balancing likely would be interesting and the question of which tier to put it in.

But more likely we could just end up with Tone getting added in since that rear flight deck was just a Spotter plane deck. Cruisers usually had to provide the recon aircraft so that CVs could use their own planes 100% for combat purposes.

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Your most likely going to see a new Japanese destroyer deep water torp line in the future than a cruiser split as they're not enough designs available for it. What one would get are madeup ships by Wargaming to complete some of the tiers. 

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1 hour ago, Admiral_Thrawn_1 said:

But more likely we could just end up with Tone getting added in since that rear flight deck was just a Spotter plane deck

IRL true. However, WG has a lot of ships carrying floatplane fighters that never carried anything but spotters. Tone would need something to compensate for no rear guns (not even secondaries like the French ships) so would ATLEAST have to mount both spotters and fighters at the same time. Possibly launching 2 planes without the captain skill, 3 with the skill.

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2 hours ago, Azumazi said:

Truth be told, during Alpha a lot of us that could were scouring archives and trying to find sources for what originally many of us wanted which was the following.

Myoko->Takao-> (merge at tier 9) - Zao

Mogami->Ibuki->(merge at tier 9) - Zao

Now, the issue with the above was that none of us could find anything to fit at tier 9. There were supposedly studies done before B-65 was started with a 12500, 15000, and 17000 ton cruiser but none of us could find anything on any of it. The Zao with the magazine article was the closest and since it seemed to fit in line with the 15000 concept, we ran with it.

Basically, to make it fit better the line got changed up and it's been that way since unfortunately. Now, they could just make up one to replace tier 9 like they did for Germany, but I don't see that happening any time soon.

Azumazi, for me, I don't see why they absolutely have to have a CL  line that ends with a tier 10 CL.  I don't see why the CL line couldn't be a partial "side track" that leaves the cruiser line at tier 4/5 and merges back in after tier 7.  That way, you don't need a new/fictional tier 9 and tier 10.

Here are some candidates for IJN CLs.

Nagara class CL

Sendai class CL

Agano class CL

Oyodo class CL

So, here's a suggestion as to how to do an IJN CL line.

Tier 4: Nagara (splits off from the Tenryu at tier 3)

Tier 5: Sendai

Tier 6: Agano

Tier 7: Oyodo

Tier 8: Both the CL Oyodo and the CA Myoko lines would merge into the CA Mogami, so there'd be no need for a fictional tier 9 and 10 CL.

It would be quite interesting to have the CL and CA lines merge at the Mogami, since she started her career as a 6" gunned CL but was later refitted into an 8" gunned CA.

Furthermore, leveraging @pikohan's interesting post above, I could definitely see turning the CL line into a form of very stealthy (for a non-DD) light cruisers that possessed the ability to stealth torp, though at lower tiers this might be iffy, since it'd either require incredibly low concealment or rather long ranged torpedoes.  However, I think that it would make for a very interesting flavor for the IJN CL line, even though it would be truncated at tier 7.  I think that these IJN CL's would need this kind of advantage and flavor due to the fact that every one of them is limited to only 6 or 7 main guns, which leaves them woefully undergunned against their same tier CL counterparts.

 

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43 minutes ago, Sabot_100 said:

IRL true. However, WG has a lot of ships carrying floatplane fighters that never carried anything but spotters. Tone would need something to compensate for no rear guns (not even secondaries like the French ships) so would ATLEAST have to mount both spotters and fighters at the same time. Possibly launching 2 planes without the captain skill, 3 with the skill.

I remember when Tone was in WOWs Wiki for a while it had greatly improved AA rating compared to other IJN cruisers.

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2 hours ago, Admiral_Thrawn_1 said:

I remember when Tone was in WOWs Wiki for a while it had greatly improved AA rating compared to other IJN cruisers.

Which would be OK except it is still mostly short range AA so you can't defend friends and likely (unless DFAA is also included) will have little effect on the ability of CVs to successfully strike you. They may lose more aircraft, but most (especially torp bombers) will still make it to their launch points. Then there is the frequent lack of CVs in most battles making good AA a complete non-factor. Tone needs something else to compensate for only 8 guns (same guns of Myoko or Takeo and they have 10), none of which can fire aft.  IDK if the torp arcs are OK or only shoot backwards like Myoko. Something based on real capabilities instead of totally made up gimmick  would be preferable.

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1 minute ago, Sabot_100 said:

Which would be OK except it is still mostly short range AA so you can't defend friends and likely (unless DFAA is also included) will have little effect on the ability of CVs to successfully strike you. They may lose more aircraft, but most (especially torp bombers) will still make it to their launch points. Then there is the frequent lack of CVs in most battles making good AA a complete non-factor. Tone needs something else to compensate for only 8 guns (same guns of Myoko or Takeo and they have 10), none of which can fire aft.  IDK if the torp arcs are OK or only shoot backwards like Myoko. Something based on real capabilities instead of totally made up gimmick  would be preferable.

Hmm maybe 20km Type 93 IJN Torpedoes? ( the regular kind of torpedoes NOT DEEP WATER TORPEDOES!)

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52 minutes ago, Admiral_Thrawn_1 said:

Hmm maybe 20km Type 93 IJN Torpedoes? ( the regular kind of torpedoes NOT DEEP WATER TORPEDOES!)

Ya mean those seen from orbit, only your friends can't dodge them, torps?

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Nagara, Sendai, Agano, Oyodo-class CLs have not been implemented yet.  Oyodo was a 1-off.  A lot of these would be Tier IV-V CLs.  Matter of fact, I have a lot of problems justifying them even to reach Tier VI, at least for the historically built, unimplemented CLs of WoWS.  A major problem is a huge reliance on a mediocre set of main batteries of 140mm guns which really don't improve from Kuma in Tier IV.  Even when they do adopt 152mm, there's not enough (Agano-class, only SIX).

 

The IJN succession of CL classes entering service, bold indicating classes already in the game:

Tier II Chikuma -> Tier III Tenryu -> Tier IV Kuma -> Nagara -> Sendai -> Agano -> Oyodo

 

Nagara, Sendai aren't much different from Kuma when talking about their normal configurations.  However, we do have:

 

Abukuma (Nagara-class), who received this refit:  Drop 2 140mm guns down to 2.  2 Quad Torp Launchers for Oxygen Torpedoes, Type 93's.  Those were the main changes.

Isuzu (Nagara-class) who got all her 140mm guns, torpedoes pulled.  They were replaced with 127mm and 25mm guns for AA duty.  In WoWS terms, we could give her Defensive Fire.  Her surface firepower though is very bad, 3x2 127mm guns and no torpedoes.  Not only this, but those 127s mounted on her were for AA duty only.  She is going to take some heavy adjusting to make her useful than just being a Defensive Fire boat.  Normally I'd say stuff her into Tier IV, but Yubari is already there doing the AA role.  So it'd be weird stuffing another AA dedicated IJN CL in Tier IV.  Inflate her, put her in Tier V as an IJN CL AA Boat.

 

Sendai-class:  Like Nagara-class, big reliance on the same 140mm guns as Kuma.  We could probably emphasize long range torpedo capability, stealth.  Equipment-wise, there is nothing special about the class.  Jintsu is the one that stands out and it's solely due to historical performance, not any special weapon setups, refits.  You could even implement Raizo Tanaka as a Cruiser / Destroyer oriented IJN captain to come out with Jintsu's release.  RAdm Tanaka had used Jintsu as his flagship for quite a bit of his early success.

 

Agano-class:  The first IJN CL that moves past 140mm, now sporting 152mm guns.  These should be worse than the ones found on Mogami in 155mm configuration.  However, despite moving to 152mm guns, the class was pitifully armed as it only had six of these guns.  SIX!  Tier VI would wallop these ships.  Current Cleveland has 152mm x 12.  Budyonny has 152mm x9.  Nurnberg / Makarov have 150mm x9.  La Gal / De Grasse have 152mm x9.

 

Oyodo:  The only ship built of the class.  She has the same 155mm guns as found on Mogami in CL configuration, but only SIX of them.  However, she does pack a bunch of 100mm AA guns as those found on Akizuki.  She has no torpedo armament.  This makes her an AA Boat candidate, which is a rarity for IJN ships in general.

 

These historical CLs are undergunned for Tier V, much less Tier VI or higher.  I was imagining putting Agano as a Tier VI and immediately realized how horrific her guns are for this duty.  So many of these rely on 140mm, and Kuma does that at Tier IV.  Because of their awful main battery armament, weak AA in general (Oyodo being the sole exception), these ships need to have 2 things to compete:

 

1.  Far superior stealth.

2.  Make their Type 93 torpedoes good, reliable for use as a CL.

If not, then you are going to have to do some serious Magic Wand Waving to make these pitiful main batteries relevant to even Tier V or VI.

 

An IJN CL Split I don't see going to Tier X.  They struggle to even meet Tier VI, if at all.  Also, it may seem that these stealthy, torpedo oriented IJN CLs may step on IJN DD toes, but their DDs are still stealthier and do not have citadels, while Cruisers do.

 

There was no question that IJN CAs packed a serious wallop.  Their CAs were literally overloaded with 203mm guns and torpedoes.  But their CLs, well, that's a different matter altogether.

Edited by HazeGrayUnderway
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13 hours ago, Azumazi said:

To the OP about Mogami being tier 7. It was in Alpha, and to be honest most people would prefer Takao at tier 8 in the tree due to the forward torpedo laid-out; however, since they dropped Atago I don't see that happening. Even with the return to Mogami's historical triple torpedo tubes the 15.5cm guns at tier 7 with the rework would be quite potent against tier 5 vessels and that's probably the biggest issue.


I'm aware that the Mogami was tier 7 in testing. I was actually saying KEEP Mogami as a tier 8, then add tier 5, 6, and 7 CLs to make a new branch splitting off from the Kuma and rejoining back in at the Mogami as the tier 8. Sorry for the confusion.

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I'll have to double check later when I can, but the only other option for an IJN CL would be a preliminary of the Agano class where they originally were going to use the Mogami's landed 15.5cm guns and turrets but opted not to due to having to increase the beam for stability. That would give one more CL.

But to make a few notes.

@HazeGrayUnderwayThe only thing I saw that was off was Isuzu didn't have all torpedo's removed. They landed the dual launchers and replaced them with only 2 sets of quads in the rear to use the forward location for more AA. So in reality they consolidated the two twins into a single quad for more deck space which wasn't a bad idea. Not sure why on the Wiki they state the quads were removed when they were not and you can even see them rotated outward in the picture with it's 1944 rebuild. They did remove the reloads on it though to reduce chances of them detonating.

Isuzu was actually supposed to get 4x twin Type 89 12.7cm mounts with 1 fore of the bridge, one aft of the bridge and one fore and aft of the rear mast. They were limited in mounts around this time so she only got 3 and hence why Musashi didn't get her 6x overall when she was sunk as well. So they could actually put in an Isuzu with her planned configuration as a premium with 4x2 12.7cm guns, 2x4 Quad torpedo launchers, and her 50x 25mm AA guns in various mounts. She would be squishy as hell as basically a lower tier Atlanta at say tier 5/6 but due to the forward facing torpedo tubes and a wide arc on them, she would still be quite useful with smoke.

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Okay, since it was asked about.

W-03 Preliminary which lead to the C-39 and into the C-41 (Agano) which is one of the other few designs possible was the following.

Endurance range of 7000nm at 18kts

2x 3 gun turrets of 15.5cm off the Mogami class's landed turrets

4x twin 8cm Type 98 AA gun mounts

2x Quad 24" torpedo mounts of Type 93 Torpedo's specifically listed for centerline

1 Catapult and 1 Seaplane

Protection of Machinery Spaces by 100mm of vertical side armor.

Around a 5000 ton standard displacement. Navy Technical Department found that the following above would require 7500 minimum standard displacement. They did a few preliminary sketches which were destroyed but we know that through the Oyodo design a lot of the W-03 design carried over. To save on weight, both guns were forward like in Oyodo, AA guns were aft with a secondary magazine aft to directly feed the Type 98 8cm guns drastically improving feed rates with the catapult located on the aft deck away from the main guns. Torpedo tubes had the forward set located between the funnels of the Engine rooms like in the C-39 design with the 2nd one located behind the aft funnel.

The only rough dimensions really speculated was 152m length overall and 15m beam but required 155000 SHP to reach 35 kts. This is when they went into the C-39 design reducing weight, increasing length of the ship and streamlining it for better performance. That being said, a smaller Oyodo or basically a 7000t Tenryu with 100mm belt armor, wide torpedo arcs due to the placements on them much like a DD and all guns forward makes for an interesting ship.

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There is certainly room for it but I want to see German CLs first.  There is probably more to work with - they were in Doenitz' fast cruiser doctrine and the M Class is well known and easy to complete, branching off from Nurnberg and filling in at Tier VII.  I could go on put my point is that as a fellow enthusiast of light cruisers, I would also like to see more but I would hope that the focus is in the right place.

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25 minutes ago, Big_Tidday_Goth_GF said:

There is certainly room for it but I want to see German CLs first.  There is probably more to work with - they were in Doenitz' fast cruiser doctrine and the M Class is well known and easy to complete, branching off from Nurnberg and filling in at Tier VII.  I could go on put my point is that as a fellow enthusiast of light cruisers, I would also like to see more but I would hope that the focus is in the right place.

Forgive my skepticism of this statement but, is there really enough material for a German CL line? I thought the biggest CLs they made were Nurnberg and Leipzig, how is there more to work with and "better known" designs for the Germans when those ships were never finished and this is the first time I've heard anything about them? In contrast, Sendai, Oyodo, etc. were actually built. What designs are there for a German CL line to use?

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The first was the Class M cruiser.  It was lightly armored and lightly armed, with Eight torpedoes.  The second project (which would fill Tier VIII) had more torpedoes and was designed as more of a forward scout.  Both emphasized speed above all else and were really envisioned more as independent Destroyers than as ships of the line.  The impetus to build them was Germany's experience in WW1 where their cruisers actually spent far more time in combat and on patrol than their vaunted battle fleet.  Remember that the Imperial German navy's Battleships fought one battle to a near draw, ran for home, and sat the rest of the war out (until they mutinied at the end).  The Cruisers fought a commerce war all over the world, and their Destroyers were active from the first day of the war.  The WW1 naval war is more analogous to the Confederacy in America's War of Secession, where there were few pitched battles but long range raids and pursuits were common all over the sea.  This was the experience that guided the engineers and naval staff when they designed the ships that were planned for Germany's navy.  There are paper designs which go past the Class M but lets just talk about how they would play (since I think we both know how they would upgrade them and balance them to fit top tiers):  

Being somewhat like the French cruisers but with less main armament than any other CL, they would have to be balanced around being dedicated Destroyer killers and for having great speed.  I envision some sort of longer ranged sonar or longer lasting sonar.  Assuming they wouldn't have spood beest (because that's the French specialty) they should still have great speed.  The reloads would have to compensate for the lack of guns, but the best way I think to balance them is not to give them broken levels of reload but rather having excellent firing arcs.  An 8,000 ton light cruiser is going to be ridiculously easy for anything with an AP shell to wreck, so modify the ship so that you can keep your targets facing forward as often as possible, just like with the Gadjah Mahda.  Class M was never built so this is something that can be worked around, especially as a perk for unlocking its B hull.  Balancing the ship is easier when it was never actually laid down, and it's not like this is outside WG's realm (remember the E 50 M is entirely based around an alternate, hypothetical engine position for an already incomplete tank).  The forward facing guns make the ship dangerous to destroyers and offer it some protection from other cruisers, but also emphasize route planning and decision making, as you won't be able to reverse and bow tank, and you can't sail towards a target forever without getting into dangerous range of his allies.  I think this can be taken even further when you get into Tier IX and X territory.  There were names for Light Cruisers after the Class M.  Sorry I can't think of them right off the top of my head, but the point is that they were more conceptual and weren't planned for production any time soon like the Class Ms were.  My first thought is that, keeping with what we have already established, have good gun arcs that allow you to face your enemies better than other cruisers, but take it a step further and give it two or even four torpedoes mounted facing forward.  Take the fun of the V-25 at low tier but put it on a high tier ship, but balanced by the ship having a citadel.

 

anyway that's a little bit off the top of my head both for how the ships have a historical basis and how they could be unique and fun to play with in the game.

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Beta Testers, In AlfaTesters
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3,367 battles

I just don't really see how there's more to work with with a handful a designs that never made it off the drawing board as opposed to a series of ships that actually saw combat. Also their armament looks pretty light for tier 7 and 8. 6 6-inch guns? Really? People are complaining that the Abruzzi is undergunned at tier 7, and it has 10 guns, 6 would just be pathetic even if they had Atlanta submachinegun rates of fire. These look closer to destroyer leaders than full-fledged cruisers to me, to the point that I actually got the Spahkreuzer confused with the Z-46 that's already in-game.

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