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MrDeaf

Graf Zepplin AP bombs, holy s...

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lol, poor Lex, stood little to no chance.

(My guess is 1 fighter squadron + 1min DFAA isn't enough to stop a GZ with 2 fighter squadrons and 3 AP bomber squadrons)

Spoiler

DcG4Y65U8AEqprp.jpg

 

(if you can't see the tweet, open the spoiler for the image)

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Well, Lex has a fighter problem, if you get a good strafe on the bombers, you're good. If not, you might have a problem. Graf Zeppelin isn't the problem there.

The problem with the Graf Zeppelin's AP dive bombers is, they're like a giant slot machine. You can make a bombing run on a German Battleship, and bounce. You can come back with your next wave, drop on the same ship, and completely obliterate it.

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55 minutes ago, SgtBeltfed said:

Well, Lex has a fighter problem, if you get a good strafe on the bombers, you're good. If not, you might have a problem. Graf Zeppelin isn't the problem there.

The problem with the Graf Zeppelin's AP dive bombers is, they're like a giant slot machine. You can make a bombing run on a German Battleship, and bounce. You can come back with your next wave, drop on the same ship, and completely obliterate it.

Don't the GZAP bombs have like 245mm of penetration?

How do they bounce off of anything, unless you missed?

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well I was deleted twice all ready in my Bis by those damn bombs, over 90% HP and blap gone

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The real problem is that these AP bombs completely remove the ability for certain BBs to influence  their own survival. It is not good for gameplay to make it so that your game is completely dependent on teammates. It isn't like with DDs and normal aircraft. You can affect those to a certain degree by making intelligent decisions. AP bombs however are "Oh, your team didn't save you. Back to port. Also, 200K service cost for 2 minutes of gameplay."

Another  very similar situation is with cross dropped torpedoes and certain destroyers. My experience is with the japanese only so I can only say that there is no way you  will survive if you go to capture (as the team demands, hey you coward shima!) and the enemy carrier goes for you. Well, you don't even have to go for capture as some CV players will hunt down those easy DD kills in the beginning. Unless your team saves you, which it usually doesn't (because hey, the fighters are needed to protect the torp bombers), you are dead and there is no way you can affect that.

("Hey, sit in smoke then." Some japanese DDs do not have smoke. Smoke does not stop torpedoes, and even if you do sit in smoke, usually you can sit there either until someone radars you or until the smoke clears and you get torpedoed, because you asking for air support in chat for the past 2 minutes didn't register and the planes hovered over you, waiting peacefully as your own AA struggled to kill a single plane.)

I've even been shot by teammates for not going for the middle cap without air support in a CV battle.

Edited by AdmiralOthuyeg
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GZ 203 has poor fighter reserves. Focus on the fighters, bbs that yolo and get culled by the GZ are only getting what they deserve for poor positioning. (downvote bombs incoming...). Once you have dealt with the fighters (your own fighter reserves can absorb losses much more easily), focus on the GZs AP bombers. GZ 203AP drivers tend to stack all of their dive bomb squadrons, this means with your single fighter squadron, you can defend the entire map/ Your fighters have hp and ammo for the long fight of attrition, the GZ only shines with a blitz.

Also, don't forget, Lex can carry AP, AP that is quite as powerful too. Your disadvantage is not the GZ loadout vs Lexingtons, it is your lack of familiarity with GZ weaknesses. Yes I know, small comfort after a loss:Smile_sad:

(fyi : I have been beaten by OP Lexington captains, as recently as yesterday, when driving GZ.)

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This has me really eager to see the changes to CV's that are coming. The way they are now are no fun. Hopefully this evens the playing field for all CV drivers instead of just the RTS junkies that excel at micro stacking these planes.

Specially getting deleted by a GZ. Even in an AA specced NC at 100 AA does nothing to stop the stupidity that the AP bombs bring.

Fun and engaging.

 

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I got wiped in two waves in my AA spec NC. Got a decent amount of planes down, but not enough. 

 

Not too bothered by it, that's just how it works. Only thing that bothers me a bit is that I had a NO right next to me and he didn't use DF.

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My main issue so far with AP bombers is how bad it effects cruisers. Honestly, the AP bombs should have a minimum thickness to arm rating that gives the majority of cruisers a safety window that makes them over-pen. It's bad enough that cruiser players have to worry about everything and AP Bombers if DFAA is on cool down is a death sentence to tier 8+ Cruisers.

Everytime I see a good US CV player with AP Bombers, they purposely watch which cruisers burn their DFAA on torpedo planes to protect friendlies and then turn around with AP DB's and erase them.

Now, the issue I see so far is the following; What thickness do we make it minimum so that cruisers aren't as badly effected?

Des Moines and Moskva have 90mm citadel decks

Zao has up to 65mm

Hindenberg with up to 60mm

Minotaur up to 57mm

Last we have Henry with 80mm

 

Now, the issue is so far that I see, these AP Bombs were designed to mostly effect BB's, and specifically German BB's. Bismarck sits with 80mm Citadel over Machinery and 100mm over Magazines. Fredrick takes this to 100/120mm. The only solution I can honestly see to help reduce this is to make 80mm required for a normal pen, 100mm required for a citadel. This would make the Cruisers immune to getting citadeled by these heavy AP bombs but would still allow the CV's to do pen damage.

Now, the above still puts Des Moines, Moskva, and Henry within Pen damage range on the AP bombs, but saves them from citadel's at least.

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7 hours ago, MrDeaf said:

Don't the GZAP bombs have like 245mm of penetration?

How do they bounce off of anything, unless you missed?

Either they outright miss, overpen something unimportant, bounce off a turret face, or something else that leaves you disappointed. As a player, you aimed them right, drop circle was tight over the target amidships and RNGesus gave you the finger. The very next drop will blow the same target completely out of the water. Graf Zeppelin probably only does slightly above average damage with her AP bombs, It's just that she swings wildly from no meaningful damage to outright nuking, and everyone remembers the nuking.

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Faced a GZ in ranked yesterday. I got king of the skies, and took out all but 1 of their strike packages before they dropped. That 1 strike package was enough to nuke a North Carolina. It made me sad.

Of course, the next match, I faced that GZ again, in what was a DD heavy match. So I kept a fighter over our one battleship, and the GZ did virtually no damage to anyone.

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Every time I see a GZ thread by BB drivers lamenting the ability of said CV to obliterate them it's hysterical. Really guys, it never gets old, keep it up, I'm always up for a good laugh.

"it's tough for a BB to control It's own survivability." That's a classic line. How about a cruiser in a 5 BB battle- tough for them to control their survivability with the possibility of 80 guns twice the size or more of theirs can delete them from any angle because- there are 5 of them. No matter what you do, or so it seems, you're in peril.

Or a DDs ability to control their survival rate in the face of multiple radar ships. Those along with virtually every other ship has a singular purpose at the outset of removing the destroyers.

Big deal, so you can be instantly deleted, join the club.

Edited by Wye_So_Serious
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no GZ has dared such against my Enterprise, although anyone that has has found I'll return the ap bomb favor

 

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3 hours ago, Wye_So_Serious said:

Every time I see a GZ thread by BB drivers lamenting the ability of said CV to obliterate them it's hysterical. Really guys, it never gets old, keep it up, I'm always up for a good laugh.

You do see that this particular devastating strike is being inflicted by a Graf Zeppelin on a Lexington, and not on a battleship?

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I heard a GZ caused the Big Bang, and we all suffering the consequences today, gazillions of years later.

1 hour ago, mofton said:

You do see that this particular devastating strike is being inflicted by a Graf Zeppelin on a Lexington, and not on a battleship?

Simply shocking. A Lexington would never obliterate a Graf Zeppelin in one strike roation now would it?

Spoiler

More to the point, why didn't the Lex use DFAA (despite MrDeaf saying the Lex did use it)? From personal experience, a Lex is a nightmare to attack with GZ strike group; the AA is too powerful when set up in a conventional manner.

 

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2 hours ago, xThecanadianx said:

no GZ has dared such against my Enterprise, although anyone that has has found I'll return the ap bomb favor

The irony here because the GZ and Enterprise are equally immune to AP bombs.

:fish_palm:

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15 minutes ago, DarthZeppelin said:

I heard a GZ caused the Big Bang, and we all suffering the consequences today, gazillions of years later.

Simply shocking. A Lexington would never obliterate a Graf Zeppelin in one strike roation now would it?

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More to the point, why didn't the Lex use DFAA (despite MrDeaf saying the Lex did use it)? From personal experience, a Lex is a nightmare to attack with GZ strike group; the AA is too powerful when set up in a conventional manner.

 

I don't know, would a Lexington nuke a GZ in one strike? This is the second or third example I've seen posted of the GZ doing it to something else. If you can do it to a GZ in a Lex, I'd enjoy seeing it.

Overall the introduction of DFAA on carriers seemed to suggest that WG didn't really want 'carrier snipes' to be a tactic. GZ with the high potential alpha of the AP DB's plus arming regime plus limited drop bloom due to DFAA scattering seems not to want to play by that paradigm.

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5 hours ago, Wye_So_Serious said:

Every time I see a GZ thread by BB drivers lamenting the ability of said CV to obliterate them it's hysterical. Really guys, it never gets old, keep it up, I'm always up for a good laugh.

"it's tough for a BB to control It's own survivability." That's a classic line. How about a cruiser in a 5 BB battle- tough for them to control their survivability with the possibility of 80 guns twice the size or more of theirs can delete them from any angle because- there are 5 of them. No matter what you do, or so it seems, you're in peril.

Or a DDs ability to control their survival rate in the face of multiple radar ships. Those along with virtually every other ship has a singular purpose at the outset of removing the destroyers.

Big deal, so you can be instantly deleted, join the club.

Actually, I play cruisers and destroyers in those environments quite often and not only survive, but thrive. In those ships I can dodge, out run, or take cover from battleships and radar cruisers. A BB can’t do any of that with aircraft. 

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1 minute ago, SavageTactical said:

Actually, I play cruisers and destroyers in those environments quite often and not only survive, but thrive. In those ships I can dodge, out run, or take cover from battleships and radar cruisers. A BB can’t do any of that with aircraft. 

Depends on the BB and CV. Lots of USN, German, and French BBs have great AA. Not enough to matter vs a unicum. But a lot of things don't work against unicum players.

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2 minutes ago, mofton said:

I don't know, would a Lexington nuke a GZ in one strike? This is the second or third example I've seen posted of the GZ doing it to something else. If you can do it to a GZ in a Lex, I'd enjoy seeing it.

Yes, and much more easily. Why? Because GZ AA is not even half as effective as Lex AA/  The elliptical drop for Lex AP, is tight enough to ensure the majority of bombs hit (assuming manual). While the Torp squadron can stand by as decoy/

4 minutes ago, mofton said:

Overall the introduction of DFAA on carriers seemed to suggest that WG didn't really want 'carrier snipes' to be a tactic.

It isn't encouraged, because it obviously makes a lot of players unhappy. On the other hand, CV snipes are only usually possible, because the sniped cv is a) not moving, b) has not specced concealment, c) has not specced AA/

I rarely snipe at t8 +, because it is both too difficult, and also I feel, unsporting. I will only try a snipe out of desperation. At t7, I will happily snipe Saipans, generally leaving other CVs alone, even though, there are still a huge number of t7 cv players, who forget to keep moving, keep their eyes open, and keep repositioning.

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11 hours ago, Azumazi said:

My main issue so far with AP bombers is how bad it effects cruisers. Honestly, the AP bombs should have a minimum thickness to arm rating that gives the majority of cruisers a safety window that makes them over-pen. It's bad enough that cruiser players have to worry about everything and AP Bombers if DFAA is on cool down is a death sentence to tier 8+ Cruisers.

Everytime I see a good US CV player with AP Bombers, they purposely watch which cruisers burn their DFAA on torpedo planes to protect friendlies and then turn around with AP DB's and erase them.

Now, the issue I see so far is the following; What thickness do we make it minimum so that cruisers aren't as badly effected?

Des Moines and Moskva have 90mm citadel decks

Zao has up to 65mm

Hindenberg with up to 60mm

Minotaur up to 57mm

Last we have Henry with 80mm

 

Now, the issue is so far that I see, these AP Bombs were designed to mostly effect BB's, and specifically German BB's. Bismarck sits with 80mm Citadel over Machinery and 100mm over Magazines. Fredrick takes this to 100/120mm. The only solution I can honestly see to help reduce this is to make 80mm required for a normal pen, 100mm required for a citadel. This would make the Cruisers immune to getting citadeled by these heavy AP bombs but would still allow the CV's to do pen damage.

Now, the above still puts Des Moines, Moskva, and Henry within Pen damage range on the AP bombs, but saves them from citadel's at least.

Its even worse since the GZ AP Bombs arm on 35 mm of armor instead of the 69 mm of the USN AP bombs. So the GZ bombs can arm on significantly more ships importantly including a lot of cruisers and most CVs at tiers 8+.

2 hours ago, JessieTheKitty said:

Had a GZ delete my edin with only 5 bombs :/

And the forum CV apologists say its only lone BBs that have to worry.

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3 minutes ago, 1nv4d3rZ1m said:

And the forum CV apologists say its only lone BBs that have to worry.

well any lonely and/or afk/beached cowboy is fair game, I guess. So yeh, in a cv battle, poor positioning hurts, and any cv, of any tech tree, will do its best to take advantage of other players mistakes. BOOM!

apologies below :

Spoiler

sorry

 

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9 minutes ago, cometguy said:

Depends on the BB and CV. Lots of USN, German, and French BBs have great AA. Not enough to matter vs a unicum. But a lot of things don't work against unicum players.

The GZ has like 10 DBs in 2 squadron right? The best AA spec’d BBs might shoot down half of those if they attack simultaneously. That means he’ll eat 5 potential citadeling bombs that land in a tighter pattern than any BB salvo. 

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2 minutes ago, SavageTactical said:

The GZ has like 10 DBs in 2 squadron right? The best AA spec’d BBs might shoot down half of those if they attack simultaneously. That means he’ll eat 5 potential citadeling bombs that land in a tighter pattern than any BB salvo. 

Ya. Misunderstood you to be referring to CVs in general. GZ is situationally super OP. Newbies will be able to wreck a battleship or two before they lose all of their planes. Better CV players will do more. Of course they'd do more in other CVs as well.

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