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CV skill gap

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Questions :

  1. How can teams compensate for situations where the enemy team has the more capable cv (ship and/or player)?
  2. What tactics can a team employ to mitigate the inlfuence on battle outcome of a cv?
  3. What mistakes by surface ships (battleships, cruisers and destroyers) enable the enemy cv to perform well? (and thus appear more capable)

Well captains? Are you doomed if your cv is doing less well than the enemy cv? Or can you do something about it? (other than rant and rage)
 

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1 minute ago, DarthZeppelin said:

Questions :

  1. How can teams compensate for situations where the enemy team has the more capable cv (ship and/or player)?
  2. What tactics can a team employ to mitigate the inlfuence on battle outcome of a cv?
  3. What mistakes by surface ships (battleships, cruisers and destroyers) enable the enemy cv to perform well? (and thus appear more capable)

Well captains? Are you doomed if your cv is doing less well than the enemy cv? Or can you do something about it? (other than rant and rage)
 

1- none

2- none

3- none

if you're teams cv is marginally worse then the enemys you're screwed.

you may say oh bunch up and do aa ball o death but you see you just did enemy cv's job by literally having ALL your ships spotted a lot easier.

also sure even if you have full aa build you will still get screwed from spotting on bb's and ca's.

there is no way of trying to compensate for a bad cv, you try to play the game without a cv vs a cv you will be doomed. Want a good example? Watch quadrilius's stream of KOTS from saturday and watch the NGA-B game vs RQW. They got whooped on even with all the aa heavy ships

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2 minutes ago, JessieTheKitty said:

Want a good example? Watch quadrilius's stream of KOTS from saturday and watch the NGA-B game vs RQW. They got whooped on even with all the aa heavy ships

What if I told you the majority CV players aren't that good, and random teams aren't that coordinated?

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14 minutes ago, JessieTheKitty said:

1- none

2- none

3- none

Sadly despite my best efforts in crafting the OP questions, non constructive posts of this kind are all to inevitable around here.

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5 minutes ago, DarthZeppelin said:

Sadly despite my best efforts in crafting the OP questions, non constructive posts of this kind are all to inevitable around here.

to be fair, he/she is right. There really isn't much surface ships can do, depends on how skillful the enemy cv is.

The best one would do is to huddle puddle together and hope for the best...Apart from that there really isn't much one can do.

The worst mistake for surface ships to make is to go alone. Seriously, when the enemy cv domintated the skies, trying any kind of solo flanking is pretty dumb.

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8 minutes ago, The_first_harbinger said:

to be fair, he/she is right. There really isn't much surface ships can do, depends on how skillful the enemy cv is.

The best one would do is to huddle puddle together and hope for the best...Apart from that there really isn't much one can do.

The worst mistake for surface ships to make is to go alone. Seriously, when the enemy cv domintated the skies, trying any kind of solo flanking is pretty dumb.

  1. don't yolo, 
  2. assess and understand the cv loadouts (green and red)
  3. understand how your AA works best
  4. understand which are the strongest aa cruisers, on your own and the enemy team
  5. priority fire enemy AA cruisers
  6. encourage your own AA cruisers to play the long game, the longer they live, you live.
  7.  

etc.. (there are many more, but I would hope you have at least a few ideas after 5000+ battles.)

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You can HE down the enemy ships AA capability for key ships hopefully giving your CV a slight advantage in this area at least

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18 minutes ago, The_first_harbinger said:

to be fair, he/she is right. There really isn't much surface ships can do, depends on how skillful the enemy cv is.

The best one would do is to huddle puddle together and hope for the best...Apart from that there really isn't much one can do.

The worst mistake for surface ships to make is to go alone. Seriously, when the enemy cv domintated the skies, trying any kind of solo flanking is pretty dumb.

But then that goes to what i said. By intentionally huddling up you just helped the enmy team. Ypu do this by putting all you're ships in the same spot like sheep in a heard. And the enemy cv is like the german shepherd 

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23 minutes ago, The_first_harbinger said:

to be fair, he/she is right. There really isn't much surface ships can do, depends on how skillful the enemy cv is.

The best one would do is to huddle puddle together and hope for the best...Apart from that there really isn't much one can do.

The worst mistake for surface ships to make is to go alone. Seriously, when the enemy cv domintated the skies, trying any kind of solo flanking is pretty dumb.

Also thanks for being the first person on the forums to not assume my pronouns based by the fact i play games...

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45 minutes ago, cometguy said:

What if I told you the majority CV players aren't that good, and random teams aren't that coordinated?

Possibly isnt the best, and it doesnt matter if it cordinated or not. Both teams had comms so each should technically have a equal chance.

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how many players smoke up, then stop moving, and worse, forget to keep an eye on the minimap? How many have been torped/bombed while thinking they were safe in smoke?

how many driving a battleship, have stopped dead in the water, leagues from friendly AA, the opposite side of the map to their teams cv, see enemy strike planes incoming, scream in chat for air cover, are still sitting unmoving when they are hit by bombs/torpedos, then blame their own cv for not being as good as the red cv?

possibly/maybe not a few forumites.

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I'm an above-average cv main on the NA and EU servers, and I'll give you a serious answer from my aerial point of view.  When I'm a lot better than the red cv, I have more options and ways that I can help my team.  Even with that advantage, though, I've lost games because the red ships were better than the green ones.

-- The red strategy of the team going to B/C (for example), where C is the easy cap and B is where the fight is at tends to concentrate the ships (and their AA) at the important part of the map - B.  This lessens my options, and increases my costs in planes lost, to help my team at the most important spot on the map.

-- The red team's best AA ship pushes with the team, so I have to deal with their AA if I'm going to help at B.  Sure, I can spot a DD all day long when the red cv is potato, but not when that DD is capping under the AA umbrella of an Atlanta.

-- Red ships could also have selected AA performances in port prior to battle.  Though a German cruiser with defensive fire is less affected by cv play, but leaving hydro behind as other problems...

-- Green ships (i.e. my teammates) can help the inferior cv get kills by yoloing down the 1 line when the rest of the team is between the 5-10 lines.  (While this seems obvious, it is just as common to have a cruiser and BB yolo down the 1 line... cruiser gets sunk by the reds, and now the BB is a yolo.)  Or the green ships can use the same island for cover when there is a red strong-AA ship on the other side of that same island.  And the most common -- green ships do not bother to shoot at the strong-AA red ships first, and instead choose easier targets.

-- Any player can actually play cvs to learn their strengths and weaknesses.   I see BB players use their F-keys for AA support when there is no way the red cv would want to target them due to their location.

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Ideas for 2.

CV: Where possible, vector your bombers in and out over friendly ships with substantial AA batteries, especially if they are being pursued. Same if the enemy fighters are coming for yours; try to lock them up where your surface ships can help. Use that surface-to-air DPS to your advantage. 

Surface ships: Target enemy fighters whenever opportunities allow (obviously not while enemy bombers are incoming). Target enemy bombers even if they are not attacking you directly, or if they are on the way home. Every one you kill is one that's not coming back (yes, they can replenish their deck-spotted squadrons from the hangar, but eventually that runs out too).

Basically - don't make it purely a carrier-vs-carrier fight. Make their aircraft have to fight your ships as well, in ways in which they can't fight back.

Eventually, I am sure, they will enable high-tier fighters to strafe enemy ships and attack AA modules, or they will give the fighters rocket projectiles for this purpose.

 

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1 hour ago, DarthZeppelin said:

Questions :

  1. How can teams compensate for situations where the enemy team has the more capable cv (ship and/or player)?
  2. What tactics can a team employ to mitigate the inlfuence on battle outcome of a cv?
  3. What mistakes by surface ships (battleships, cruisers and destroyers) enable the enemy cv to perform well? (and thus appear more capable)

Well captains? Are you doomed if your cv is doing less well than the enemy cv? Or can you do something about it? (other than rant and rage)
 

If a good CV wants you dead there is nothing you can do to stop him. Especially if its one of the broken CVs (Saipan, Kaga or GZ). No amount of maneuvering or AA will save you if the player is good.

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1 hour ago, DarthZeppelin said:

Questions :

  1. How can teams compensate for situations where the enemy team has the more capable cv (ship and/or player)?
  2. What tactics can a team employ to mitigate the inlfuence on battle outcome of a cv?
  3. What mistakes by surface ships (battleships, cruisers and destroyers) enable the enemy cv to perform well? (and thus appear more capable)

Well captains? Are you doomed if your cv is doing less well than the enemy cv? Or can you do something about it? (other than rant and rage)
 

Simply stay in groups with defensive AA. Also use HE to destroy the AA capabilities of the enemy. Finally, always target enemy aircraft with you ctrl+right click, not just incoming attack planes but fighter as well when the opportunity presents itself. 

Carriers aren't all powerful. They just hand out the damage every few minutes, all at once instead of every 30 seconds from massive guns.

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2 minutes ago, Spieges said:

Carriers aren't all powerful. They just hand out the damage every few minutes, all at once instead of every 30 seconds from massive guns.

well spoken.

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1 hour ago, DarthZeppelin said:

Questions :

  1. How can teams compensate for situations where the enemy team has the more capable cv (ship and/or player)?
  2. What tactics can a team employ to mitigate the inlfuence on battle outcome of a cv?
  3. What mistakes by surface ships (battleships, cruisers and destroyers) enable the enemy cv to perform well? (and thus appear more capable)

Well captains? Are you doomed if your cv is doing less well than the enemy cv? Or can you do something about it? (other than rant and rage)
 

1. playing in team

2. stay in group, focus fire in enemy cruisers.

3. Sail alone, sail alone, i alread says sail alone? Also playing 'camper', also playing 'stopped'.

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15 minutes ago, DarthZeppelin said:

well spoken.

Thanks. I just think people need to put the game in perspective more often. Yes, a carrier can do a ton of damage but most any ship can. You can mitigate that damage though, through captain skills, modules, flags, and player skill/understanding of the game.

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51 minutes ago, DarthZeppelin said:
  1. don't yolo, 
  2. assess and understand the cv loadouts (green and red)
  3. understand how your AA works best
  4. understand which are the strongest aa cruisers, on your own and the enemy team
  5. priority fire enemy AA cruisers
  6. encourage your own AA cruisers to play the long game, the longer they live, you live.
  7.  

etc.. (there are many more, but I would hope you have at least a few ideas after 5000+ battles.)

You are trying so hard to make this a team game when, outside if ranked/clans, its anything but. There is very little team work in a match. Whats the last time you played a surface ship against a unicum CV main player?

1. You are playing w/ pubs who sail around like chickens with their heads cut off. You have to seperate from the group at time if you want you team to achieve something.

2. A very generalized and overall useless statement.

3. A very generalized and overall useless statement.

4. Not helpful when these ships just go their own way no matter how politely you ask them for help. 

5. Why? If your CV is useless, there is no point trying to help him. And even if your CV is good, are you going to waste shots at some AA cruiser 20km away OR the DD thats torping you team from 10km-12km away and stealing all your caps? Whichdo you think is more important?

6. Again, whats the last time you actually played a surface ship? Did you forget that you are playing with pubs in a game where there is little to no cooperation? Most pubs just go off yoloing, others dont respond to chat, while the remaining ones that do are terrible players and dont know how to play their ship.

 

 

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As a ninja dd main if a cv wants me dead not much i can do about it. Db don,t hurt much unless i have 1k hp, cross drop torp get me 50% spotting 100% if reds arnt potatoes. This if i do nothing stupid if i do something stupid then all other ship types kill me. Cv can kill me before i can contribute other ships kill me after i do 10-30k damage 10-20k spotting dm and 200-500k potential dm. Cv don,t target me much but getting deleted at thier discreation drives my frustration thru the roof.

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good CV players in random are so rare.  No need to over think this.

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1 hour ago, DarthZeppelin said:

Questions :

  1. How can teams compensate for situations where the enemy team has the more capable cv (ship and/or player)?

Daily sacrifices to the MM Gods are definitely recommended. My go-to sacrifice is always a virgin Hood blown up on the altar of the North Atlantic before breakfast, followed by a Bismarck hunt where the Bismarck had its rudder slit in the afternoons. This should please our lord and saviour RnGeezus greatly.

1 hour ago, DarthZeppelin said:

2. What tactics can a team employ to mitigate the inlfuence on battle outcome of a cv?

By far the most annoying strategy for the enemy carrier is what I like to call 'the Ball of Doom' tactic. It is performed by having your entire team lemmings in one direction before balling up next to a cap circle. Basically, act like a swarm of fish that's being attacked by dolphins. Not even DDs can leave the swarm. It's the quintessential weeb tactic that's basically guaranteed to lose you the battle, but boy will it be annoying for the enemy CV.

If acting like a complete and utter noob is too much effort for you, a strong AA ship, possibly with defensive AA and smoke, which takes up residence in a secure location somewhere near the geographic middle of the map can be a huge hindrance. Minotaurs, Neptunes and Kidds are especially good at this. It won't stop the enemy CV, but it'll always force him to take the long way round, which can be surprisingly detrimental to his DPM.

1 hour ago, DarthZeppelin said:

3. What mistakes by surface ships (battleships, cruisers and destroyers) enable the enemy cv to perform well? (and thus appear more capable)

Pushing the flank alone. That, and BBs which turn away from torpedo drops. BBs should always turn inwards, or they end up catching more torps than if they'd just gone straight ahead.

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The answer to all of these is to never let ships sail by themselves. While ships with Defensive Fire are fairly self sufficient, those without are just fodder if they sail by themselves. You'll notice that CV players almost never go after battleships when they have escorts. Unfortunately, Randoms are loaded with BB drivers who split off from the group and then get focused down by the CV.

As for spotting ... yeah, if your CV captain gets all his planes wiped out, there's nothing you can do.

Yes, the CV skill gap and imbalanced influence on a match is a well known issue among the community and developers. Dealing with it is core concern in their CV rework.

Edited by KaptainKaybe

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7 minutes ago, Ulthwey said:

You are trying so hard to make this a team game when, outside if ranked/clans, its anything but.

trying hard? Not at all. The random battle teams that show better coordination are usually the teams that win, the teams you don't think exist.:Smile_glasses:

Now your rejection of the need to undertand cv loadouts, goes some way to explain why you may sometimes have issues, and lose battles. Knowing if you are about to be attcked with HE, or AP, for example, or' understanding cv reserves.

10 minutes ago, Ulthwey said:

4. Not helpful when these ships just go their own way no matter how politely you ask them for help. 

 

sometimes this is true, but not always. But teams that communicate tend to be teams that do better than teams that don't.

 

11 minutes ago, Ulthwey said:

Why? If your CV is useless, there is no point trying to help him

perhaps your cv is useless because you are not creating opportunities for it, such as nuking enemy cruiser and dd AA. Firing at that juicy big slow easy to hit Yamato, rather than that sneaky glass cannon Minotaur which happens to be an area of denial for your teams cv with a 7km + AA bubble.?

13 minutes ago, Ulthwey said:

, whats the last time you actually played a surface ship?

yesterday.

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Hope the carrier's bottom tier? If not, general advice would be: anything you think might be fun or dynamic to do - do the absolute opposite.

 

In general there are things that you can do to mitigate the impact, grouping up (ideally into two groups to surrender less map control) you can also move warily around terrain, good chance that the red team will be able to exploit air spotting to invisifire you over it. Depending on the tiers and map composition however grouping up may be singularly unsuccessful, and a cluster is a great target for torpedo-walls.

 

It's just not fun. A carrier provides too great a proportion of your teams' AA, spotting (8x 150kt spotters vs. 1x 40kt DD being the best other one? get real...) and depending on the tier does as much direct damage as a battleship to boot. This is simply broken.

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