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Lord_Cornholus

Five-Stars on Killer Whale Lost for want of people on point

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If I recall correctly, Killer Whale's final win condition is for 50% of the remaining ships to make it to the escape zone. So not even the entire team needs to go there.

 

Where were you if you weren't headed for the escape zone, OP? Because even if your entire team potatoes and dies, you being in that circle means victory as soon as your team is down to 2 ships. Because at that point you're 50% of the remaining fleet.

Edited by KiyoSenkan

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That was a hard mission even before the changes. I 5 starred it before so I never have to do it again. I used to head to the evac before it popped up, and it is not easy to get there. You get to dodge 9 torpedo bombers in a row, which slows you down and gets you sideways, and if you survive that, you don't have enough time left to get to the circle before the ship you're 'escorting' leaves the map and ends the game. Need someone to get in front of that numbnuts crossways and hold him up a minute, I've seen the battle end with 2 minutes left on the clock. Anyway, it's not easy to evac out of there. The Normandie can make it, the Colorado is just hosed. I failed that mission so much I don't feel the need to do it again.

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8 minutes ago, 44_percenter said:

That was a hard mission even before the changes. I 5 starred it before so I never have to do it again. I used to head to the evac before it popped up, and it is not easy to get there. You get to dodge 9 torpedo bombers in a row, which slows you down and gets you sideways, and if you survive that, you don't have enough time left to get to the circle before the ship you're 'escorting' leaves the map and ends the game. Need someone to get in front of that numbnuts crossways and hold him up a minute, I've seen the battle end with 2 minutes left on the clock. Anyway, it's not easy to evac out of there. The Normandie can make it, the Colorado is just hosed. I failed that mission so much I don't feel the need to do it again.

Easiest way to 5-star Killer Whale: Be competent in carriers and bring Ryujo.

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1 minute ago, KiyoSenkan said:

Easiest way to 5-star Killer Whale: Be competent in carriers and bring Ryujo.

Quite. Unless your team gets a mega ton of cits and dev strikes and sets everything on fire, it takes too long to destroy all the targets and then you end up a couple minutes short for the retreat, also a bunch of dd's spawn and begin torping while you are trying to retreat. Also a couple cruisers and a battleship. You don't have to sink them, but it's risky to try to just sail past them.

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Just now, 44_percenter said:

Quite. Unless your team gets a mega ton of cits and dev strikes and sets everything on fire, it takes too long to destroy all the targets and then you end up a couple minutes short for the retreat, also a bunch of dd's spawn and begin torping while you are trying to retreat. Also a couple cruisers and a battleship. You don't have to sink them, but it's risky to try to just sail past them.

I've never had this problem. I torpedo the Hosho at the start, then set up my bombers to sink both carriers who come in from the NW corner.

 

Once the base is clear, I autopilot to the escape point with no problems, while doing attack runs on the battleships that spawn.

 

The caveat that you may have missed was: Be competent.

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10 hours ago, 1dennistt said:

  If they ever want to make a hard mode for this op, all they have to do is mandate 3-4 DDs on a team, there seems to be no shortage of people willing to bring them into the op.

Not sure about that.  Since I bought Anshan and earned Fubuki we've been able to make up more multi-DD teams.  Yesterday played a 3-DD game and 5-starred it, even though our DD main wasn't in one and I'm something of a potato in a DD.  It definitely played differently, though.  I think we'll try it again.

 

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On 4/30/2018 at 5:44 PM, 44_percenter said:

That was a hard mission even before the changes. I 5 starred it before so I never have to do it again. I used to head to the evac before it popped up, and it is not easy to get there. You get to dodge 9 torpedo bombers in a row, which slows you down and gets you sideways, and if you survive that, you don't have enough time left to get to the circle before the ship you're 'escorting' leaves the map and ends the game. Need someone to get in front of that numbnuts crossways and hold him up a minute, I've seen the battle end with 2 minutes left on the clock. Anyway, it's not easy to evac out of there. The Normandie can make it, the Colorado is just hosed. I failed that mission so much I don't feel the need to do it again.

NOPE.  You're talking about Aegis. Aegis is pretty easy if you know what you're doing, which involves killing the CVs that launch all those torps early.

Killer Whale involves going into a fortified harbor, killing everything in sight, then getting out, killing a few more things on the way.  It is by far the easiest of the surviving Scenarios.

 

Edited by iDuckman

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21 minutes ago, iDuckman said:

Not sure about that.  Since I bought Anshan and earned Fubuki we've been able to make up more multi-DD teams.  Yesterday played a 3-DD game and 5-starred it, even though our DD main wasn't in one and I'm something of a potato in a DD.  It definitely played differently, though.  I think we'll try it again.

 

That's probably the difference between a division of DDs (or other players) who can and do communicate and coordinate with each other and getting 2 or 3 random DD players dropped into your team.  Having random DD players yolo into the harbor and die at the beginning of the match (thinking they are taking care of the big bad battleships and carrier) alone as they swoop in without support and get blistered by the forts and planes doesn't help raise my opinion of DDs in random groups of players.  Since they never seem to survive past the first part of the mission, they don't realize that other things need to be sunk before the mission is completed.

 I'll give you that a dedicated group working together is an asset to any team, I just don't find this to be true for most random players who bring in their DDs.

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The past few nights we've run short teams and picked up a number of "pubbie" DD players.  Some were really good and some were ... not.  I believe @Doombeagle was in one, and he wasn't just good, he was funny in chat.

Don't despair when you see a pubbie DD.  Talk to him in chat.

 

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I'm not giving up on them, just a little disheartening watching the same thing happen 90% of the time when they are there.  I've been on a couple of teams with really good players, wish I had the replays to post them up so others could see what they should be doing.

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44 minutes ago, iDuckman said:

The past few nights we've run short teams and picked up a number of "pubbie" DD players.  Some were really good and some were ... not.  I believe @Doombeagle was in one, and he wasn't just good, he was funny in chat.

Don't despair when you see a pubbie DD.  Talk to him in chat.

 

I thank the honorable fowl from WOlf3, but he is mistaken. I recall seeing him in the roster, I do not remember which ship I used that run, but it would have been Cleveland, Degrasse, or Normandie. I gave up running DDs in operations in favor of urinating on electrified fences while chewing on aluminum foil.

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3 hours ago, Doombeagle said:

I thank the honorable fowl from WOlf3, but he is mistaken.

Oh don't mind me.  I was killed by a cargo ship tonight.

 

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18 hours ago, 1dennistt said:

If they ever want to make a hard mode for this op, all they have to do is mandate 3-4 DDs on a team, there seems to be no shortage of people willing to bring them into the op.

Depends on what DD they bring.  Gunboat DD's can do well.  I've done it in Anshan, Aigle, Farragut, and Gaede.  Want to try it again in Gallant.  But torp DD's aren't a good option for this Op.  Need enough gunpower to do significant damage to the forts.  

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On ‎4‎/‎30‎/‎2018 at 4:58 PM, KiyoSenkan said:

I've never had this problem. I torpedo the Hosho at the start, then set up my bombers to sink both carriers who come in from the NW corner.

 

Once the base is clear, I autopilot to the escape point with no problems, while doing attack runs on the battleships that spawn.

 

The caveat that you may have missed was: Be competent.

The problem is mostly in games without a cv, which is most games for people not playing a cv. You can head to the escape point and play from there the entire operation. The rest of us have constraints like gun range (19.6 km) and line of sight. As a battleship, if you don't get a lot of lucky cits, the targets take too long to destroy. Going closer helps, but makes it farther to retreat. I've beaten the mission when some allied ships retreat ahead of time, and the rest stay to clean up the harbor. The caveat you missed was, if you knocked out the mission targets quick enough, it gives people more time to retreat. There is barely enough time to go to the harbor and back in the first place. The ships that get held up too much can suicide on the reds and 5 star the mission also, which is about the only way to 5 star that one. I don't know if WG made it harder, but I know I'm not doing it again.

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On 4/29/2018 at 11:36 PM, Lord_Cornholus said:

Just Curious:

Has anyone else noticed a higher incident of teams failing Killer Whale by simply failing to get ships into the exfiltration point? Last time it was around, it happened maybe once to me that the team failed to win the operation for that reason (couple of times, we all got sunk). Now, I have had several occasions where the team has earned five star, we have all or most of our tubs unsunk, and then many players seems to forget or ignores that we lose everything if we don't get half the ships to the exfiltration point. Is it just me? Or is this old man seeing a pattern that others be seeing? 

there's a whole new crop of players infiltrating Scenarios.  anytime an ongoing mission can be completed in Co-Op and Scenarios, you'll get folks that dont normally partake.  they'll pop in thinking it'll be quicker, easier and less painful path for mission completion.  Co-Op -- yeah no problem.  Scenarios on the other hand require a player to figure out what the scenario victory conditions are AND AREN'T.   Most are unwilling or incapable of going that extra step to figure out scenarios have victory conditions that are very specific and very different from the typical Randoms recipe for success (i.e. cap stuff and kill stuff).   

Edited by Dr_Dirt

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On ‎4‎/‎30‎/‎2018 at 8:16 PM, iDuckman said:

NOPE.  You're talking about Aegis. Aegis is pretty easy if you know what you're doing, which involves killing the CVs that launch all those torps early.

Killer Whale involves going into a fortified harbor, killing everything in sight, then getting out, killing a few more things on the way.  It is by far the easiest of the surviving Scenarios.

 

NOPE. I usually 5 starred Aegis, and rarely failed it. Killer whale, the one where you go into the harbor and destroy everything, and the forts, was rare to complete and almost never 5 star. Having to fight all the way to the extraction point did not help; if a couple ships made it, was usually better for everyone else to suicide. The last 2 cv's that spawned would begin deleting ships.

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1 minute ago, Dr_Dirt said:

there's a whole new crop of players infiltrating Scenarios.  anytime an ongoing mission can be completed in Co-Op and Scenarios, you'll get folks that dont normally partake.  they'll pop in thinking it'll be quicker, easier and less painful path for mission completion.  Co-Op -- yeah no problem.  Scenarios on the other hand require a player to figure out what the scenario victory conditions are AND AREN'T.   Most are unwilling or incapable of going that extra step to figure out scenarios have victory conditions that are very specific and very different from the typical Randoms -- cap stuff and kill stuff.   

I'm not sure that's it. My first try, I failed because not enough of us got to the extraction point. That accounts for 1 time. After that, everyone should have a good idea what the victory conditions are, not needing to sink the endlessly spawning red ships if you can get past them, etc. 

So this theory should only explain the first fail; after that, other factors take over. I'm not saying I always made it to the extraction point every attempt after the first, but not for lack of trying.

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23 minutes ago, 44_percenter said:

The problem is mostly in games without a cv, which is most games for people not playing a cv. You can head to the escape point and play from there the entire operation. The rest of us have constraints like gun range (19.6 km) and line of sight. As a battleship, if you don't get a lot of lucky cits, the targets take too long to destroy. Going closer helps, but makes it farther to retreat. I've beaten the mission when some allied ships retreat ahead of time, and the rest stay to clean up the harbor. The caveat you missed was, if you knocked out the mission targets quick enough, it gives people more time to retreat. There is barely enough time to go to the harbor and back in the first place. The ships that get held up too much can suicide on the reds and 5 star the mission also, which is about the only way to 5 star that one. I don't know if WG made it harder, but I know I'm not doing it again.

You don't know which side of the map will be the escape zone, and actually camping one of them can be extremely dangerous, as when reinforcement waves start spawning, they spawn in the escape areas. A carrier who camps out there, even if he guesses the right one, is still dead meat because he's going to get thrown into what's known as Kolberg Hell.

 

A carrier on Killer Whale needs to follow the fleet into the harbor, and then follow the fleet back out.

 

I didn't miss your caveat at all. It's a common trend. You're just responding to "The best way to 5-star this is to take a carrier" with "but what if you don't have a carrier". To which the answer is, obviously, 5-star clearing Killer Whale is going to be a lot harder when you're not using the strongest strategies for it.

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5 minutes ago, KiyoSenkan said:

You don't know which side of the map will be the escape zone, and actually camping one of them can be extremely dangerous, as when reinforcement waves start spawning, they spawn in the escape areas. A carrier who camps out there, even if he guesses the right one, is still dead meat because he's going to get thrown into what's known as Kolberg Hell.

 

A carrier on Killer Whale needs to follow the fleet into the harbor, and then follow the fleet back out.

 

I didn't miss your caveat at all. It's a common trend. You're just responding to "The best way to 5-star this is to take a carrier" with "but what if you don't have a carrier". To which the answer is, obviously, 5-star clearing Killer Whale is going to be a lot harder when you're not using the strongest strategies for it.

Totally. Load in, no carrier on the team, afk time.

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9 minutes ago, 44_percenter said:

Killer whale, the one where you go into the harbor and destroy everything, and the forts, was rare to complete and almost never 5 star. Having to fight all the way to the extraction point did not help; if a couple ships made it, was usually better for everyone else to suicide. The last 2 cv's that spawned would begin deleting ships.

What can I tell you?  We've played the thing with full teams, partial teams, varying tactics, a complete spectrum of ship mixes.  The last few nights I've been keeping informal track of nightly results.  On average our nightly record is 8 5-star wins and a little over one lesser result, usually 4-star.  I think we've actually failed only three times this week.  The team agrees that Killer Whale is far the easiest Op now that Narai is gone.

 

4 minutes ago, KiyoSenkan said:

A carrier on Killer Whale needs to follow the fleet into the harbor, and then follow the fleet back out.

Yes, but not immediately out.  The CV can hang there for quite a while since there's no danger and can drift toward the exit.

As for camping the exits, no, that is not healthy.  The last couple of nights, though, we've tried camping the NW corner to kill the CVs as they spawn.  One ship (cruiser or sometimes DD) shoots forts, then goes N without ever entering the harbor.  I won't endorse the tactic, but it has been generally effective.

 

Frankly, I haven't noticed a difference in win rate with and without a CV.

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8 minutes ago, iDuckman said:

Frankly, I haven't noticed a difference in win rate with and without a CV.

Why tell me? I don't care. Tell the OP.

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32 minutes ago, iDuckman said:

Yes, but not immediately out.  The CV can hang there for quite a while since there's no danger and can drift toward the exit.

As for camping the exits, no, that is not healthy.  The last couple of nights, though, we've tried camping the NW corner to kill the CVs as they spawn.  One ship (cruiser or sometimes DD) shoots forts, then goes N without ever entering the harbor.  I won't endorse the tactic, but it has been generally effective.

 

Frankly, I haven't noticed a difference in win rate with and without a CV.

Yeah it can certainly be won without a carrier, I've done it often enough. It's just easier to 5-star with one available.

 

What I tend to do is let the surface ships deal with the fort and, after sinking Hosho and damaging the docked Kaiser, I reload my planes and move to the NW corner to greet Hosho 2 with instant death. Then I reload, use fighters to clean up any planes that got away, and greet Zuiho the same way. This by itself handles "Sink 3 carriers" and allows the surface fleet to focus on the other annoying objective for a 5-star clear, "Don't let any enemy ships enter the haven".

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On 4/30/2018 at 3:40 PM, KiyoSenkan said:

Where were you if you weren't headed for the escape zone, OP? Because even if your entire team potatoes and dies, you being in that circle means victory as soon as your team is down to 2 ships. Because at that point you're 50% of the remaining fleet.

Feisty one, ain't ya? The problem with your observation is people dying ain't the issue.  If they would die, I wouldn't mind for precisely the reason you note, but they ain't courteous enough to oblige. Instead, what I see are 3-5 living teammates who won't quit chasing down irrelevant reinforcement ships 10+ km away from the exfiltration point long after we secured all the stars and only start running back when we have less than 60 seconds on the clock. Do you see where I be comin' from, Sir or Ma'am? 

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