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ThatOddMan

Do "modern" dive/torpedo bombers exists today?

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Watched some documentary and something came to my mind.

Online search amounted to no relevant information. Sorry. So I am posting this.

Do those types still exists today on the modern aircraft carriers?

 

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Torpedo bombers are no longer in service unless if you count anti-ship missiles. Dive bombers in that practice do not exist. Its all about guided missiles and bombs nowadays.

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Not really. However, if modern ordnance were damaged, good pilots could still use them as 'dumb' dive bombs. The trouble with such a run (unless done by computer at high altitudes) is that it brings planes into AAA range very quickly.

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There are bombers on CV's so I am sure they could be used but most likely never would be. There are aerial torpedos still in use but they are mostly (I am not sure if 100% are so I will say mostly) dropped from helicopters for the purpose of submarines. Anti ship missiles  are the most effective for obvious reasons.

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http://www.vp4association.com/aircraft-information-2/32-2/mk-46-torpedo/

Still on the weapons racks on every allied navy carrier.

The perfect 'Reach out and touch someone' gift.

Nowadays, it's usually dropped by a sonar-dipping ASW helicopter.

The Russians have static mine/torpedoes capable of arming on certain sound profiles after lying dormant for weeks.

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All guided missiles today.  The old strike aircraft have zero chance of survivability over a modern warship.

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34 minutes ago, ThatOddMan said:

Watched some documentary and something came to my mind.

Online search amounted to no relevant information. Sorry. So I am posting this.

Do those types still exists today on the modern aircraft carriers?

No.  The anti-ship torpedo is solely the province of the submarine now, and perhaps some PT boats in coastal waters.

The dive bomber is long gone.   Antiship missiles perform this function just fine, w/o risk of losing a pilot or a plane.

Of course, for a lesser-defended target or with lots of support, perhaps (Read The Sixth Battle by Barrett Tillman), you could use laser-guided bombs on ships as well.  

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Not sure if the tactic is still used, but at one time they used what was known as a bomb toss.

The attacking aircraft would come in low and at high speed towards the target. At a certain range the aircraft would pull up at a 45 degree +/- angle. They would then roll upside down at whatever altitude was calculated to get the bomb on target then dive toward the ground releasing the bomb at the apex of the maneuver. The bomb would then continue up and away and begin to fall back to the target. In the mean time the attacking aircraft has pulled a modified loop and is speeding away at low level in the opposite direction from which it came. I also believe it may have been called a popup attack. This could be done by almost any bomb carrying attack, or fighter aircraft however It is probably only used against lightly defended targets. 

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39 minutes ago, Belyy_Klyk said:

There are bombers on CV's so I am sure they could be used but most likely never would be. There are aerial torpedos still in use but they are mostly (I am not sure if 100% are so I will say mostly) dropped from helicopters for the purpose of submarines. Anti ship missiles  are the most effective for obvious reasons.

We don't really have dedicated bombers on carriers any more, and the old term "fighter/bomber" has pretty much become "strike fighter."  The ship killing aerial torpedo no longer exists outside of museums but we do have the MK-46 family of anti-submarine torps that are designed to be deployed from helicopters and fixed wing aircraft.  The USN has retired the carrier capable S-3 Viking ASW aircraft but can still deploy these torps from the P-3 and P-8 shore based sub hunters.  A variant of the MK-46 is carried as the payload of the ASROC ASW rocket.  Any USN ship with VLS launchers can deploy it.  Any ship with a helo-pad or flight deck can deploy ASW helos.

 

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32 minutes ago, swampwater77 said:

Not sure if the tactic is still used, but at one time they used what was known as a bomb toss.

The attacking aircraft would come in low and at high speed towards the target. At a certain range the aircraft would pull up at a 45 degree +/- angle. They would then roll upside down at whatever altitude was calculated to get the bomb on target then dive toward the ground releasing the bomb at the apex of the maneuver. The bomb would then continue up and away and begin to fall back to the target. In the mean time the attacking aircraft has pulled a modified loop and is speeding away at low level in the opposite direction from which it came. I also believe it may have been called a popup attack. This could be done by almost any bomb carrying attack, or fighter aircraft however It is probably only used against lightly defended targets. 

I don't know if the tactic has been used operationally since Desert Storm but I think it's still practiced as a way to keep the deploying aircraft out of the AAA and SAM envelope of prospective targets.  It can be used with "dumb" bombs but the preference is to use GPS or other guidance systems.

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Aircraft can still dive bomb and drop torpedoes on ships and have the weapons for them today. But as people have pointed out, those types of weapons and delivery methods would put you deep, deep inside your target's ADZ. So they generally stick with missiles instead and leave the torpedoes to submarines.

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2 hours ago, swampwater77 said:

Not sure if the tactic is still used, but at one time they used what was known as a bomb toss.

The attacking aircraft would come in low and at high speed towards the target. At a certain range the aircraft would pull up at a 45 degree +/- angle. They would then roll upside down at whatever altitude was calculated to get the bomb on target then dive toward the ground releasing the bomb at the apex of the maneuver. The bomb would then continue up and away and begin to fall back to the target. In the mean time the attacking aircraft has pulled a modified loop and is speeding away at low level in the opposite direction from which it came. I also believe it may have been called a popup attack. This could be done by almost any bomb carrying attack, or fighter aircraft however It is probably only used against lightly defended targets. 

It's known as the Idiot Loop/Over-The-Shoulder/Toss Delivery.

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Low angle dive bombing is still practiced, mostly for low threat areas against targets that accuracy isn't of particular importance. It's also pretty much dedicated to attacking ground targets. The high angle dive bombing that people think about in WWII fell out of favor before the Korean war in part because it's fairly dangerous with jets and even propeller driven aircraft without dive brakes.

Torpedo bombers left just as quickly as modern radar controlled AA guns with proximity fuses would slaughter them before they got close enough to drop. The last torpedo run by the US Navy was done by A-1 Skyraiders in 1951 against a dam in North Korea. It was the only torpedo attack of the Korean war. Modern ASW aircraft drop ASW torpedoes more like a parachute bomb than a WWII torpedo.

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17 hours ago, AVR_Project said:

http://www.vp4association.com/aircraft-information-2/32-2/mk-46-torpedo/

Still on the weapons racks on every allied navy carrier.

The perfect 'Reach out and touch someone' gift.

Nowadays, it's usually dropped by a sonar-dipping ASW helicopter.

The Russians have static mine/torpedoes capable of arming on certain sound profiles after lying dormant for weeks.

P-3 can also load a Mk 46.

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On 4/28/2018 at 4:20 PM, ThatOddMan said:

Watched some documentary and something came to my mind.

Online search amounted to no relevant information. Sorry. So I am posting this.

Do those types still exists today on the modern aircraft carriers?

 

There are modern aircraft that carry torpedoes but these are universally for use against submarines.  The old school air types that flew right up to/dived down on hostile surface ships, releasing ordnance at "in yo face" ranges, hasn't been a thing for many decades.  Missiles and electronically guided bombs do the job now.

On the other hand, ground warfare support can still see some aircraft getting up close and personal.

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Iran has still toyed around with the idea of cheap piston driven torpedo aircraft in the style of the old IJN Emily but I think they're realized that these are not so cheap for there performance.

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As they existed in WW2, no

The A-6 Intruder was likely the last true bomber to operate from CVs. F/A-18s are mostly fighters that can drop bombs. Most bombs today are 'smart' bombs. Dive bombing was simply a 'better' way of getting the bomb on target.

The only aircraft I am aware of in a CV group carrying torpedos are helicopters, and those are for ASW. Patrol aircraft such as the P-3 and P-8 also carry torpedos, but again, ASW.

 

On 4/28/2018 at 8:19 PM, swampwater77 said:

Not sure if the tactic is still used, but at one time they used what was known as a bomb toss.

The attacking aircraft would come in low and at high speed towards the target. At a certain range the aircraft would pull up at a 45 degree +/- angle. They would then roll upside down at whatever altitude was calculated to get the bomb on target then dive toward the ground releasing the bomb at the apex of the maneuver. The bomb would then continue up and away and begin to fall back to the target. In the mean time the attacking aircraft has pulled a modified loop and is speeding away at low level in the opposite direction from which it came. I also believe it may have been called a popup attack. This could be done by almost any bomb carrying attack, or fighter aircraft however It is probably only used against lightly defended targets. 

That tactic was mostly used for dropping a Nuke. It gave the bomber aircraft time to get out of dodge before the bomb went off.

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1 hour ago, Lord_Slayer said:

That tactic was mostly used for dropping a Nuke. It gave the bomber aircraft time to get out of dodge before the bomb went off.

Considering CCIP rapidly made it's way through the US aircraft fleet, a system capable of computing high angle drops much better then automatic mechanical drop computers, it's just as capable when slinging clusters and irons as it was with tactical nukes.

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On 4/28/2018 at 6:40 PM, pewpewpew42 said:

Not really. However, if modern ordnance were damaged, good pilots could still use them as 'dumb' dive bombs. The trouble with such a run (unless done by computer at high altitudes) is that it brings planes into AAA range very quickly.

Check out the Falkland Islands Conflict which occured in 1982. Those Argentine fighters sank a few ships with just bombs. There is not enough AAA on a 'modern' warship now to even compare to what was on a Cleveland class CL from WWII. Documentary of Falklands showed soldiers/sailors firing SAW machine guns at the jets, once you defeat the radar on the ships (i.e. catch them in a bay with hills/mountains on one or more sides) all you have to worry about is small arms fire....pretty sad.

Edited by Goomypoop

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The closest thing to a dive bomber anywhere is maybe the A10, since it literally has to go into a sorta dive to mow stuff down with the Gau-8.

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1 hour ago, Goomypoop said:

 

Check out the Falkland Islands Conflict which occured in 1982. Those Argentine fighters sank a few ships with just bombs. There is not enough AAA on a 'modern' warship now to even compare to what was on a Cleveland class CL from WWII. Documentary of Falklands showed soldiers/sailors firing SAW machine guns at the jets, once you defeat the radar on the ships (i.e. catch them in a bay with hills/mountains on one or more sides) all you have to worry about is small arms fire....pretty sad.

Comparing the Type 21 to anything modern, much less modern in the 1980s is a riot.

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1 hour ago, Goomypoop said:

 

Check out the Falkland Islands Conflict which occured in 1982. Those Argentine fighters sank a few ships with just bombs. There is not enough AAA on a 'modern' warship now to even compare to what was on a Cleveland class CL from WWII. Documentary of Falklands showed soldiers/sailors firing SAW machine guns at the jets, once you defeat the radar on the ships (i.e. catch them in a bay with hills/mountains on one or more sides) all you have to worry about is small arms fire....pretty sad.

Ummm what are you talking about?

a modern AAW DDG or CG has much better AAW capability than a Cleveland ever did...

 

as to that last part a cleveland would have been pretty screwed if caught in a small confined waterway with tall hills/mountains around them as well...especially if they were attacked by jets...

 

also if im not mistaken a bofors 40mm gun was credited with downing a jet during the Falklands.

falklands also showed that the SoP of shooting down delivery systems(aircraft) rather than intercepting the payloads (bombs) was a tactical error left over from WWII that didn’t properly take the advancements in technology in guided bombs and missiles...

Edited by JohnPJones

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