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9 minutes ago, HazeGrayUnderway said:

In her tier range, Abruzzi sees some very dangerous Battleships.

Caesar

Scharnhorst

Lyon

Amagi

Missouri

... You know what, I was going to list a bunch of powerful Battleships but I realized that any BB is going to squish her no matter what.  Maybe Gneisenau will struggle due to her 6 guns only problem, but everything should scatter Abruzzi's entrails across the Pacific, Atlantic, Mediterranean, and Indian Oceans at the same time.  From Arizona's accurate 356mm shelling, to Amagi's reliable 410mm guns, and Missouri's APRM2 buffed 406mm rifles, this is going to be a painful experience for her users.

I will devour her with my Texas. Hell, my Arkansas B would turn her inside out. Wargaming is really going to have to take a long, hard look at Italian CLs, as they’ve largely failed with Duca d’Aosta and Abruzzi. As you mentioned, cruisers that are only really good at dealing with other cruisers aren’t really going to compete with better and more versatile ships.

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5 hours ago, Phoenix_jz said:

VUqItqs.gif

vote for another great review! If only it didn't piss me off - but that's not your fault, that's just how WG has handled the ship itself.

 

Well, time for a mini-rant.

 

Duca d'Izzurba: The ship that wasn't

 

"What are you on about?' you might be asking? Well, I refuse to call this thing 'Abruzzi', because this thing is... well, not Abruzzi.

Let us be clear about one thing. This class may have nominally come after the d'Aosta-class, and is commonly referred to as part of the Condottieri series of light cruisers - but it was in name only. The class was a major departure from the prior class,and threw away the concept of high speed in favor of much heavier armor. The guns themselves were the improved 152/55, a major step up over the 152/53's, and managed a RoF of 5 rpm, but went back to the 50 kg AP, and raised the velocity of the AP from 850mps to 910mps, and the HE from 950mps to 995mps. With the AP shells, the guns were also hyper-accurate, managing 80-90m dispersion out to 17.5 km.

In swapping armor for speed, the class dropped the top speed by 2.5 knots. They could make no more than 34 knots. In fact, neither Abruzzi nor Garibaldi never even reached 35 knots on their TRIALS. 

Their armor scheme incorporated lessons from the construction of the composite belt of the Littorio-class, and thus is was sought to make a decapping-reliant belt that could resist cruiser-caliber fire. This resulted in an armor scheme that started with a 30mm homogenous plate, with an 880mm void behind it. The other side of the void was the curved 100mm Cemented plate, laminated on to 8mm of ER plating. Behind this (another 880mm) was a final 12mm splinter plate. This was also done for the fore and aft transverse bulkheads, although in this case it was just a straight 30mm (homogenous) + 100mm (cemented) without the backing or splinter plates. The way it functioned was the the 30mm plate would decap an incoming shell, which would then shatter on the Cemented plate. Essentially the belt was invulnerable to 152mm fire, although not likely 203mm fire.

In-game, because we don't have decapping as a function. Therefore, this doesn't work. not-Abruzzi''s belt, therefore, being a straight 30+100mm, is really only barely better than 100mm against 152mm shells, and against larger-caliber shells, the 30mm plate might as well not be there. On Roma, WG compensated the reliance on the decapping belt by making it solid, and giving it some extra thickness - so 70mm + 280mm became 375mm. They also made the fore and aft transverse bulkheads on not-Abruzzi's a solid 130mm. Doing that to the belt, and maybe adding in the plates that were ignored, might help (they included backing plates on Roma... but not here :cap_wander:).

Although, on the flip side, on no diagram of Abruzzi's armor scheme as a 30mm fore belt ever appeared. I've got no idea where WG got that from. Italian design had given up on fore and aft armor belts a long while before Abruzzi, and not other design at the time gave and indication of going back.

 

Moving on to the guns - well, Italian HE shells is a repetitive story. Italian HE was not meant to work in the same manner as others. It did not rely on raw blast damage, it relied on the heavier splinters to penetrate more and go further, hence a smaller bursting charge, which in this game gives less damage and fire chance. This would be best represented by giving higher HE penetration - in which case, you could at least not have to work about taking IFHE and thus murdering your fire chance.

As for the AP - I'm not sure why WG gave the 152/55 so much worse drag than the exact same shells that exist on d'Aosta, as well as worse Krupp... but they did. But let's start comparing penetration, which will reveal something interesting. Penetration in-game taken from this site, which allows us to look at angle of impact and impact velocity, as well as time-to-target.

152mm/53 penetration In-Game: 

14 km: 88mm

16 km: 76mm

18 km: 69mm

20 km: 65mm

152mm/55 penetration In-Game: 

14 km: 78mm

16 km: 68mm

18 km: 63mm

20 km: 61mm

 

152mm/55 penetration according to Italian September 1942 penetration tables:

14 km: 86mm

16 km: 74mm

18 km: 65mm

20 km: 58mm

 

It's worth noting that the Italian penetration tables were 'assured penetration' values, taken from firings done at lower-velocity. These varied from 85 to 95% of full penetration values.

Belt penetration for guns in-game is almost always superior to real-life values. The exception is the 152/55, which is inferior to it's real-life penetration. Looking a typical ratios of real-life to in-game penetration, it seems that what's actually happened is that d'Aosta's penetration is based on the penetration tables for the 152/55, and the 152/55's penetration in-game is weaker as a result of being 90mps slower than that of d'Aosta's guns.

 

These are all issues with how Abruzzi was ultimately represented in-game... but as far as balance goes, there's one core issue that fixing all the the above would not change. Abruzzi (or, not-Abruzzi, I guess) is simply overtiered. She should never have been tier 7. She was analogous to cruisers like La Galissonniére, and the Town-types (without all the crazy crapthat gets added on to them in-game for being British). She should have been a tier VI, just as d'Aosta should've been a tier V - her guns use ballistics that the 152/53 Model 1929 never actually used in reality. Adding a heal onto not-Abruzzi ultimately was just a band-aid that could not fix an inherently flawed placement and adaptation of a ship. It seems WG was intent to make her a higher-end version of d'Aosta - but that's just not what this class was.

 

So while I give LWM's review an upvote... 

but for WG's handling of the Abruzzi.... all I can say is that I'm glad they didn't choose the Giuseppe Garibaldi to butcher instead, and I give this as my vote;

jRlLsZ1.gif

 

No way am I buying this ship, which is kind of a shame - the Abruzzi-class ranks as one of my favorite light cruiser designs, and since Abruzzi was the lead ship of the class, it's unlikely we're going to see this class re-appear elsewhere in the game.

 

 

Honestly given Abruzzi apparently stands upto DD and Cruiser fire quite well i don't think it really matters. A 152mm Belt can be penned by every BB in her MM spread at anything outside of auto bounce out to at least 15km. And a 205 belt would only be immune to Iron Duke, Bayern, Normandie, Lyon, and possibly Konig. And not by much in some of those cases. Even with proper decapping modeling she'd be paper and that seems to be a core issue for her.

 

p.s @LittleWhiteMouse great review as allways, and thsoe animations throughout, just lulz. Also since it;s kinda your thing (:P), LEWD!

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20 minutes ago, HazeGrayUnderway said:

any BB is going to squish her no matter what. 

This is true for most middle tier cruisers, not only to Abruzzi. Even the OP Belfast is easily deleted. In that regard Abruzzi might have a better chance than many of them due to the great mobility+concealment+heal combo.  

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Thanks for the Review Mouse, great as always, really loved the angry youtube gif.  Kinda sad about the ship though as I love the other three Italian ships.  As an upside there might be fewer BBs in game or in range due to asashio for a bit.

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1 hour ago, LittleWhiteMouse said:

The exact exchange went as follows:

 
Qez38ZZ.png "I need a shorter term than "Vision Control" -- one word preferably so that it fits in the vertical summary pictures."
7jYZzrF.png"Refrigerator."
GRcDl0x.png"Synonymous to it, smarty pants."
YWQ1rZJ.png"Oh."

Can confirm.

It'll never not be funny to me that she stuck with it.

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20 minutes ago, Lert said:

Can confirm.

It'll never not be funny to me that she stuck with it.

It is weird too. I can see that conversation even when she first described it in her Musashi review that answer is just so like you Lert.

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1 hour ago, LittleWhiteMouse said:

 

The exact exchange went as follows:

 
Qez38ZZ.png "I need a shorter term than "Vision Control" -- one word preferably so that it fits in the vertical summary pictures."
7jYZzrF.png"Refrigerator."
GRcDl0x.png"Synonymous to it, smarty pants."
YWQ1rZJ.png"Oh."

That is so like @Lert.

1lhk4r.jpg

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3 minutes ago, Carl said:

 

Honestly at this point i'm kinda convinced @LittleWhiteMouse & @Lert are this pair :Smile_hiding:.

 

latest?cb=20081207140318

Oh wow. I agree with you. That pic looks sooooo much like the two of them working together. Where did you even find it? xD

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4 minutes ago, Carl said:

 

Honestly at this point i'm kinda convinced @LittleWhiteMouse & @Lert are this pair :Smile_hiding:.

 

latest?cb=20081207140318

 

3 minutes ago, Blorgh2017 said:

Oh wow. I agree with you. That pic looks sooooo much like the two of them working together. Where did you even find it? xD

Nah, more like this.

HAvRgUA.png

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4 minutes ago, Blorgh2017 said:

Oh wow. I agree with you. That pic looks sooooo much like the two of them working together. Where did you even find it? xD

 

It's from honourverse. It's actually of Honour Harrington and her treecat Nimitz, (not that he's a pet, and he has a low and evil sense of humour as evidenced by one of his many nicknames, "Stinker" as in bugs bunny and his Treecat name "Laughs Brightly").

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9 hours ago, Phoenix_jz said:

Well, time for a mini-rant.

I feel that WG could have tried adding a new and different shell type.

Call it the Fragmentation shell

It should do 1/5 or 1/4 penetration, deal 40~50% penetration damage, but also have zero chance to start fires, even with flags and DE.

So it's like a mix of HE and AP. There's no angling against it, has good penetration, but it can never start any fires.

Edited by MrDeaf
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2 minutes ago, MrDeaf said:

I feel that WG could have tried adding a new and different shell type.

Call it the Fragmentation shell

It should do 1/5 or 1/4 penetration, deal 40~50% penetration damage, but also have zero chance to start fires, even with flags and DE.

So it's like a mix of HE and AP. There's no angling against it, has good penetration, but it can never start any fires.

Nice I like that idea

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52 minutes ago, Blorgh2017 said:

Oh wow. I agree with you. That pic looks sooooo much like the two of them working together. Where did you even find it? xD

From David Weber's(Awesome) Space Opera series  Honor Harrington  the prequel  to which is 

A_Beautiful_Friendship_By_David_Weber.png

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1 minute ago, shadowsrmine said:

From David Weber's(Awesome) Space Opera series  Honor Harrington  the prequel  to which is 

A_Beautiful_Friendship_By_David_Weber.png

Even the title itself seems to also well describe the relationship between Miss Maus and Lert... or is it? LOL. xD

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3 minutes ago, Blorgh2017 said:

Even the title itself seems to also well describe the relationship between Miss Maus and Lert... or is it? LOL. xD

Wish I could give you a plus+1 one for that forum won't let me tho  :-(

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42 minutes ago, Blorgh2017 said:

Even the title itself seems to also well describe the relationship between Miss Maus and Lert... or is it? LOL. xD

 

Haha. To be fair Mouse and Lert will probably never have to deal with somthing like a Hexapuma. Honour and Nimitz have seen their share of direct personal confrontations they're much more well known for Honours abilities as a tactician and strategist and Nimitz's low and evil sense of humour. Which i feel fits Mouse and Lert better. Stephanie and Lionheart are remembered more for the climactic battle of "A Beautiful Friendship" and the work they would do on behalf of treecats in later life.

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1 hour ago, shadowsrmine said:

From David Weber's(Awesome) Space Opera series  Honor Harrington  the prequel  to which is 

A_Beautiful_Friendship_By_David_Weber.png

Sadly I'd have to say formerly awesome following Shadow of Freedom.

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p.s for anyone interested the bean, (the books publishers), CD website has the first 2/3 of the honorverse available for free download in ebook format. Including the a beautiful friendship short story.

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24 minutes ago, mofton said:

Sadly I'd have to say formerly awesome following Shadow of Freedom.

Opinions differ IE  everyone has them just like everyone has an  A$$****  and your showing yours:Smile_amazed::Smile_facepalm:

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5 hours ago, Carl said:

 

Honestly given Abruzzi apparently stands upto DD and Cruiser fire quite well i don't think it really matters. A 152mm Belt can be penned by every BB in her MM spread at anything outside of auto bounce out to at least 15km. And a 205 belt would only be immune to Iron Duke, Bayern, Normandie, Lyon, and possibly Konig. And not by much in some of those cases. Even with proper decapping modeling she'd be paper and that seems to be a core issue for her.

 

p.s @LittleWhiteMouse great review as allways, and thsoe animations throughout, just lulz. Also since it;s kinda your thing (:P), LEWD!

 

True, but keep in mind the armor belt is only a small part of the problem. There's still the guns, the fact she's overtiered and shoe-horned into a role of 'bigger d'Aosta', etc.

As for the armor belt - obviously no cruiser is going to be bouncing BB shells short of auto bounce. However, that doesn't change the fact that her armor scheme is more vulnerable than it should be.

To throw up a quick table (math done a while ago), resistance of a set of thicknesses again common 6" guns. 150mm (what the RM rated Abruzzi roughly equal to), 130mm (as transverse bulkheads are), 30+100mm, and just 100mm.

Agressors: 150mm 130mm 30+100mm 100mm
 6"/50 Mk.XXIII  8.1 km 9.5 km 11.3 km 12.6 km
 152mm/55 Mle 1930  8.7 km 10.4 km 12.6 km 14.0 km
 15cm/60 SK C/25  5.2 km 6.6 km 8.8 km 9.0 km
 6"/47 Mk.16  8.7 km 10.6 km 12.8 km 14.4 km
 152mm/57 MK-5  9.3 km 11.0 km 13.2 km 14.5 km
 152/53 Modello 1929  8.0 km 9.4 km 11.4 km 12.3 km

Against 6" guns, especially the ones of higher velocity, the 30+100mm combination is barely better than just 100mm, a far cry from anything like what 130mm would be, never mind what the actual effectiveness of the armor would be. Against 203mm guns, the 30mm plate might as well not exist, it will only slow them down by roughly 1%, at intermediate to long combat ranges.

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I want it.  Going to pass anyways.  I'm not going to reward what I consider over-tiering to money grab.

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1 hour ago, shadowsrmine said:

Opinions differ IE  everyone has them just like everyone has an  A$$****  and your showing yours:Smile_amazed::Smile_facepalm:

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00BGCC28Y/ref=dp-kindle-redirect?_encoding=UTF8&btkr=1

Title of the most useful review: 'I was very disappointed reading this book'.

 

Take a long walk off a short pier you ignorant, rude troll stain.

P.s. It's 'you're', you illiterate peasant.

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+1 for use of the word "peasant"

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1 hour ago, mofton said:

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00BGCC28Y/ref=dp-kindle-redirect?_encoding=UTF8&btkr=1

Title of the most useful review: 'I was very disappointed reading this book'.

 

Take a long walk off a short pier you ignorant, rude troll stain.

P.s. It's 'you're', you illiterate peasant.

Dude I've  READ  Every one of his book's in the Honor Harrington series and  Loved  Every One One Of  Them!   And that comment about his series just proves  mine that everyone has their Opinion and just because you and a Few Opinionated other people don't like the series after Shadow  of Freedom  Doesn't Make YOUR Opinion right and EVERYYONE Else's  Wrong! (Come to that there were even more people posting the opposite opinion to Your and Your unfortunate Friend's Quoted Opinion) #2  Unless you delete the word Troll from Your  Comment  I will report you!   #3  You Now have two strike's.   As for You're VS  Your that is subjective you Frustrated English Professor......................What's the matter no school will Hire You and Pay You to Work for them?   (Get used to it you worthless piece of trash Grammar N#&@) instead of posting here and wasting everyone else's time go read a book instead of watching soap opera's 

Edited by shadowsrmine

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