Jump to content
You need to play a total of 5 battles to post in this section.
Ricky_Racer

Omaha vs Cleveland (Training Room) No Citadels

33 comments in this topic

Recommended Posts

42
[-V-]
Members
217 posts
830 battles

@LittleWhiteMouse @iChase

I was curious why my Omaha was doing so little damage against other ships so I took her into the Training Room. (Yes I know it's a tier 5 vs a tier6) I positioned it against the Cleveland, side by side, parallel to each other at 10km distance. I shot nothing but AP. 

I did this for (5) training missions. (2) Cleveland's vs my Omaha, in each Training Room trial. The results I got from all (5) trials are pretty much identical from each mission. (Training Room)

5ae289cd6a2cc_NoCits.jpg.6839305b41e7a8478ef291f75fb6484c.jpg

Shooting from 10 km, aiming, center ship, water line, these are the results I get pretty much for each Training Room I ran.

None of these trials had a CITADEL hit.

Obvious it's possible to "Penetrate" & "Over-Penetrate" while never hitting the Citadel.

I am curious why.

"FOR EDUCATIONAL PURPOSE ONLY"

 

 

Edited by Ricky_Racer

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
707
[DPG]
Members
1,398 posts
5,989 battles

I haven't looked recently but I believe the Cleveland has spaced citadels.  One slighly forward of the front stack and another under the rear.  If you were aiming dead center, you probably weren't actually hitting the citadel. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1,179
[SPTR]
Members
3,590 posts
6,518 battles

I'm not sure if that's a normal scenario. Omaha can citadel Cleveland just fine.

I was using Phoenix in the training room which has the same guns, just less of them.

5ae290ac12fd6_ScreenShot2018-04-26at22_49_58.thumb.png.08765c57bc88e9126596b3b4a344b38e.png5ae290c327973_ScreenShot2018-04-26at22_50_42.thumb.png.b32b50280fb850c8ea961900cf744c28.png

5ae290d8d4d52_ScreenShot2018-04-26at22_51_01.thumb.png.58ec6b9560699290e7d87c09163e09ac.png5ae290f0ad8c5_ScreenShot2018-04-26at22_52_08.thumb.png.5a75b2f1666bf99d539b5972db2c6693.png

Cleveland's citadel is right around the waterline and exposed, no spacing, no turtleback. You just have to hit the right spot.

5ae2915deb345_ScreenShot2018-04-26at22_55_52.thumb.png.907a8f8ace031c667fb43faa025feb47.png

Good luck and fair seas!

 

Edited by The_first_harbinger

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
42
[-V-]
Members
217 posts
830 battles
10 minutes ago, Amenhir said:

I haven't looked recently but I believe the Cleveland has spaced citadels.  One slighly forward of the front stack and another under the rear.  If you were aiming dead center, you probably weren't actually hitting the citadel. 

You may be right but the armor for the Citadel is center of ship. Just below water line.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
25,561
[HINON]
Supertester
20,716 posts
14,138 battles
11 minutes ago, Amenhir said:

I haven't looked recently but I believe the Cleveland has spaced citadels.  One slighly forward of the front stack and another under the rear.

Nope. It's one piece.

Give me a moment, I'll load up the game and have a look at the armor model, try out my Omaha clones against Cleveland, see what happens.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
42
[-V-]
Members
217 posts
830 battles
1 minute ago, The_first_harbinger said:

I'm not sure if that's a normal scenario. Omaha can citadel Cleveland just fine.

I was using Phoenix in the training room which has the same guns, just less of them.

5ae290ac12fd6_ScreenShot2018-04-26at22_49_58.thumb.png.08765c57bc88e9126596b3b4a344b38e.png5ae290c327973_ScreenShot2018-04-26at22_50_42.thumb.png.b32b50280fb850c8ea961900cf744c28.png

5ae290d8d4d52_ScreenShot2018-04-26at22_51_01.thumb.png.58ec6b9560699290e7d87c09163e09ac.png5ae290f0ad8c5_ScreenShot2018-04-26at22_52_08.thumb.png.5a75b2f1666bf99d539b5972db2c6693.png

Cleveland's citadel is above water and exposed, no spacing, no turtleback. You just have to hit the right spot.

5ae2915deb345_ScreenShot2018-04-26at22_55_52.thumb.png.907a8f8ace031c667fb43faa025feb47.png

Good luck and fair seas!

 

Unfortunately, during the trials, after over 600 shots, using AP, I could not produce not one Citadel. (Got to love RNG even in the Training Room)

  • Funny 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
42
[-V-]
Members
217 posts
830 battles

I am not complaining in this thread, nor am I trying to start something negative. I am just curious. (Trying to get better)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
25,561
[HINON]
Supertester
20,716 posts
14,138 battles
4 minutes ago, Ricky_Racer said:

Unfortunately, during the trials, after over 600 shots, using AP, I could not produce not one Citadel. (Got to love RNG even in the Training Room)

There is no RNG in penetration, just in impact location / spread. At 600 shells, the sample size is also large enough that something else must be happening.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
42
[-V-]
Members
217 posts
830 battles
1 minute ago, Lert said:

There is no RNG in penetration, just in impact location / spread. At 600 shells, the sample size is also large enough that something else must be happening.

All ships in the trial were not moving. Target was stationary. Center ships. Water Line. At 10 km distance. (Of course, not all shells hit center) Just no, zero Citadels but a lot of over-pens.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
25,561
[HINON]
Supertester
20,716 posts
14,138 battles
5 minutes ago, Ricky_Racer said:

All ships in the trial were not moving. Target was stationary. Center ships. Water Line. At 10 km distance. (Of course, not all shells hit center) Just no, zero Citadels but a lot of over-pens.

I'm testing now with my Marblehead, getting similar results so far.

  • Cool 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
25,561
[HINON]
Supertester
20,716 posts
14,138 battles
11 minutes ago, Ricky_Racer said:

I am not complaining in this thread, nor am I trying to start something negative. I am just curious. (Trying to get better)

I figured as much, your OP wasn't in a complaining tone. Which is why I'm putting time and effort into checking this out for myself.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
42
[-V-]
Members
217 posts
830 battles
1 minute ago, Lert said:

I'm testing now with my Marblehead, getting similar results so far.

I'm sorry. I don't have the Marblehead.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
25,561
[HINON]
Supertester
20,716 posts
14,138 battles
1 minute ago, Ricky_Racer said:

I'm sorry. I don't have the Marblehead.

It's an Omaha clone. Same guns.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
42
[-V-]
Members
217 posts
830 battles
Just now, Lert said:

It's an Omaha clone. Same guns.

I appreciate you looking into this and the time you are taking. (I was more curious what I was doing wrong)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
201
[CUTIE]
Members
368 posts
14,240 battles

It may be impact angle at that range, judging off my memory of how the Omaha shell trajectory is.  They float iirc.  Gun caliber may also be a factor.

Edited by Hatsuzuki_DD

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
345
[POP]
Members
1,208 posts
15,064 battles

    I just did it too with Omaha ... I started walking in and even at 7km I was unable to pen belt. @The_first_harbinger was apparently able to citadel it at 3.7-3.8 by what his hud says in the pictures. My guess is Clevelands belt gives it immunity till somewhere between 7-3.9 KM away from Omaha's rifles.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
42
[-V-]
Members
217 posts
830 battles
1 minute ago, Alabamastan said:

    I just did it too with Omaha ... I started walking in and even at 7km I was unable to pen belt. @The_first_harbinger was apparently able to citadel it at 3.7-3.8 by what his hud says in the pictures. My guess is Clevelands belt gives it immunity till somewhere between 7-3.9 KM away from Omaha's rifles.

I can see my Omaha getting within 4 km from another ship. :etc_red_button:  Torp time. (Just before I get blown up)

Now I have a new question, if a ship's shell, no matter what distance, can penetrate, and over-pen, at the same distance, shouldn't it also have a chance of exploding in the citadel?

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
345
[POP]
Members
1,208 posts
15,064 battles

image.thumb.png.784217d5e740a886a228105b6f7aac2e.png

This penetration calculator says that at around 6.4km Omaha has trouble penetrating what would be the thickness of Clevelands belt. I got it from this site https://mustanghx.github.io/ship_ap_calculator/

Edited by Alabamastan

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Alpha Tester
3,666 posts
7,407 battles
48 minutes ago, Amenhir said:

I haven't looked recently but I believe the Cleveland has spaced citadels.  One slighly forward of the front stack and another under the rear.  If you were aiming dead center, you probably weren't actually hitting the citadel. 

It used to to but not anymore, that was removed in either late Alpha or Early Beta if I remember correctly since it was so trollish.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
25,561
[HINON]
Supertester
20,716 posts
14,138 battles
11 minutes ago, Alabamastan said:

This penetration calculator says that at around 6.4km Omaha has trouble penetrating what would be the thickness of Clevelands belt.

This corresponds with my findings.

I sacrificed 6 Clevelands, two at 10 km, one at 8.8km, one at 7.5km, one at ~4km and one at 1.4 km. I was able to get no cits on the 10km ones, no cits on the 8.8km one, no cits on the 7.5km one, 9 cits on the ~4km one and 8 cits on the 1.4 km one.

Replay here.

There were some interesting shots of shells that looked like they hit the citadel belt, penetrated but didn't do citadel damage:

wRxKFfz.jpg

This was on the 7.5km one. However, looks can be deceiving. This actually hit above the citadel armor belt and was an overpen:

a3gCobJ.jpg\

Cleveland's citadel is quite trollish and only extends a tiny bit above the water line.

I got semi reliable citadels on the 4km one:

LWGqih4.jpg

I even landed more cits on the 4 km one than the 1.4 km one. That's easily explained by angle of impact though, at 4km the shells hit reasonably perpendicular, at 1.4 km the turrets aim inwards to all hit the same spot which means the shells converge at a much steeper angle.

This was all done with Marblehead, using these guns and shells:

9SfnwUo.jpg

My conclusion: 10km is too far for Omaha's guns to cit Cleveland. 7.5 as well, though the sample size at 7.5m in this thread is much lower than at 10km.

Hope this helps.

 

  • Cool 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
637
[ARRGG]
Members
4,863 posts
8,160 battles
11 minutes ago, Alabamastan said:

    I just did it too with Omaha ... I started walking in and even at 7km I was unable to pen belt. @The_first_harbinger was apparently able to citadel it at 3.7-3.8 by what his hud says in the pictures. My guess is Clevelands belt gives it immunity till somewhere between 7-3.9 KM away from Omaha's rifles.

Your most likely right the Cleveland does have good armor compared to Omaha, If the situation was reversed and the Cleveland was doing the shooting you’d get Lots of Citadels,ive got 2600 games in Murmansk I never shoot AP over 5 k unless it’s a lower tier ship ,totally broadside  it just doesn’t do enough damage

  • Cool 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
42
[-V-]
Members
217 posts
830 battles
1 minute ago, Lert said:

This corresponds with my findings.

I sacrificed 6 Clevelands, two at 10 km, one at 8.8km, one at 7.5km, one at ~4km and one at 1.4 km. I was able to get no cits on the 10km ones, no cits on the 8.8km one, no cits on the 7.5km one, 9 cits on the ~4km one and 8 cits on the 1.4 km one.

Replay here.

There were some interesting shots of shells that looked like they hit the citadel belt, penetrated but didn't do citadel damage:

wRxKFfz.jpg

This was on the 7.5km one.

I got semi reliable citadels on the 4km one:

LWGqih4.jpg

I even landed more cits on the 4 km one than the 1.4 km one. That's easily explained by angle of impact though, at 4km the shells hit reasonably perpendicular, at 1.4 km the turrets aim inwards to all hit the same spot which means the shells converge at a much steeper angle.

Hope this helps.

 

I certainly appreciate your tests. Just not sure I want to get that close to a Cleveland in my Omaha. Thanks. (Can't wait to get my Cleveland)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
25,561
[HINON]
Supertester
20,716 posts
14,138 battles
2 minutes ago, Ricky_Racer said:

Just not sure I want to get that close to a Cleveland in my Omaha.

Not really, no. Unless it is otherwise preoccupied, it'll rip you a structurally superfluous new behind. Omaha's bow plating is 10mm, which Cleveland's 152mm guns overmatch and yolo right through into your citadel.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
42
[-V-]
Members
217 posts
830 battles
3 minutes ago, HMCS_Devilfish said:

Your most likely right the Cleveland does have good armor compared to Omaha, If the situation was reversed and the Cleveland was doing the shooting you’d get Lots of Citadels,ive got 2600 games in Murmansk I never shoot AP over 5 k unless it’s a lower tier ship ,totally broadside  it just doesn’t do enough damage

The Omaha just doesn't seem to produce enough fires so I began shooting AP at other Cruisers and that didn't help. Oh well.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
345
[POP]
Members
1,208 posts
15,064 battles
2 minutes ago, Ricky_Racer said:

The Omaha just doesn't seem to produce enough fires so I began shooting AP at other Cruisers and that didn't help. Oh well.

I personally found Omaha to be pretty solid at fire starting, with its rain of shells. I use her AP on other Omaha, Emerald, Kuma (stuff you know is soft but still has a citadel) when in DD support mode in a cap to quickly get the riff raff out.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×