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Venac

WG what incentive do DD have....

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WG what incentive have you given DD to do their job when it comes to risk vs reward? Not talking about sinking ships damage has always ruled for XP. I am talking about capping and spotting and the lack of incentive to do so. 

1- There is very little xp reward for capping and spotting vs just doing damage. 

2- With radar and all the other anti DD nerfs that have been added to the game capping and spotting have become a huge risk. 

I am not saying DD should not spot or cap, but why should a BB and some CA be able to sit back fling shells and get sweet XP for damage for little risk while a DD trying to cap and or spot get low XP for a much greater risk? It is time that Capping and spotting XP get a boost and doing so may even get more BB/CA players a reason to advance forward also. 

Flame retardant suit on i may need it :Smile_glasses:

Edited by Venac
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OP has a point. At one time though WG did offer much higher XP for capping and many cruiser and battleship players threw a fit over it. Kind of funny because those same players throw a fit when destroyers do not cap. 

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17 hours ago, Venac said:

WG what incentive have you given DD to do their job when it comes to risk vs reward? Not talking about sinking ships damage has always ruled for XP. I am talking about capping and spotting and the lack of incentive to do so. 

1- There is very little xp reward for capping and spotting vs just doing damage. 

2- With radar and all the other anti DD nerfs that have been added to the game capping and spotting have become a huge risk. 

I am not saying DD should not spot or cap, but why should a BB and some CA be able to sit back fling shells and get sweet XP for damage for little risk while a DD trying to cap and or spot get low XP for a much greater risk? It is time that Capping and spotting XP get a boost and doing so may even get more BB/CA players a reason to advance forward also. 

Flame retardant suit on i may need it :Smile_glasses:

#!  you must not cap a lot...

#2 take your time capping....
DDs are not hard too play they are just sometimes hard to play to their strengths...

Edited by neptunes_wrath

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2 minutes ago, neptunes_wrath said:

#!  you must not cap a lot...

#2 take your time capping....
DDs are not hard top play they are just sometimes hard to play to their strengths...

He is correct that capping gives much less xp for the risk vs how much xp you can get for damage. 

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6 minutes ago, Scrapyard_ said:

He is correct that capping gives much less xp for the risk vs how much xp you can get for damage. 

 Can you show the actual numbers? 

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Capping wins games?

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1 minute ago, m373x said:

 Can you show the actual numbers? 

Capping did provide better XP once upon a time, and since the change radar has become more of a " thing" to be certain. 

They also got rid of the opening " freebie" caps too on maps like 2 Brothers.

It's gotten riskier to cap but the rewards haven't changed along with it, basically. I can see the point, even if it isn't eloquently made.

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I wish there were medals (achievements) and ribbons for:

  • Capturing bases (maybe 3 in a battle, heroic?)
  • Potential damage
  • Spotting

More immediate gratification for these tasks would teach players to work with their teams more.

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1 minute ago, Canadatron said:

Capping did provide better XP once upon a time, and since the change radar has become more of a " thing" to be certain. 

They also got rid of the opening " freebie" caps too on maps like 2 Brothers.

It's gotten riskier to cap but the rewards haven't changed along with it, basically. I can see the point, even if it isn't eloquently made.

 DDs also deal damage though, couple that with capping XP + the mandatory "Defended" ribbon that goes hand in hand with damaging enemy DDs and you have yourself a great opportunity to amass huge amount of XP. DDs are also the ships that provide greatest spotting (after CVs) so at the end of the day a DD player has a diverse selection of actions to farm XP from.

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The OP is kind of right, but the issue he is missing is the fact what makes it hard for DD is teams that have no idea how to support their DDs when capping or refuse to do so. When this happens I hold off on capping until I feel i can get support or I feel it is safe enough to go in alone. 

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XP for DDs is a tough one.  WG wants the primary focus to be damage.  The problem is they make that hard for DDs.  Boost XP for capping/spotting and it will make it too easy for DDs to run away with XP.  Personally, I don't want DD XP boosted for capping/spotting because it will give WG all the more reason to nerf DD damage. 

4 minutes ago, m373x said:

 DDs also deal damage though, couple that with capping XP + the mandatory "Defended" ribbon that goes hand in hand with damaging enemy DDs and you have yourself a great opportunity to amass huge amount of XP. DDs are also the ships that provide greatest spotting (after CVs) so at the end of the day a DD player has a diverse selection of actions to farm XP from.

Highly skilled DD players can pull this off with a certainly amount of reliability.  For the average player life expectancy might only be a few minutes.  For the average player that is more conservative, well he doesn't contribute a lot of spotting, capping or damage.  The average player isn't farming XP.    

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I don't know why there needs to be more incentive than increasing your odds of winning.  The win bonus alone makes it  worth doing DD things, everything else is just cherry on top.  

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Just now, NCC81701 said:

I don't know why there needs to be more incentive than increasing your odds of winning.  The wing bonus alone is worth it. 

With that logic there is no reason cruisers and BBs shouldn't have the same responsibility for capping and spotting.  That's not the best idea, so we better give some incentive to DDs to take on that risk.

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7 minutes ago, Slimeball91 said:

With that logic there is no reason cruisers and BBs shouldn't have the same responsibility for capping and spotting.  That's not the best idea, so we better give some incentive to DDs to take on that risk.

CA and BB  have the same responsibility but must approach how they contest a cap differently because the risk to reward ratio for capping is completely different for these classes. DD have speed, smoke, and maneuverability to get out of a contested cap if things get too hot, CA and BB typically don't have that kind of flexibility so the calculation for whether and how close to a cap you can contest is different. 

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1 hour ago, why_u_heff_to_be_mad said:

Silly me

 

I thought winning was it's own reward 

has anyone done the math here... which is worth more, getting the win bonus from spotting and winning, or missing out on the win bonus but getting damage?

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The incentive is what ever the player deems it is. Wargaming provides the construct and it is up to the players to carve out the incentive. The principal is the same for all classes of ships. If winning is not a great incentive then why play the game? Your role is as defined as you make it, and if you can not find fun in that then you should not play. 

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1 hour ago, Scrapyard_ said:

OP has a point. At one time though WG did offer much higher XP for capping and many cruiser and battleship players threw a fit over it. Kind of funny because those same players throw a fit when destroyers do not cap. 

It was also a time when Destroyers were in a much stronger position than they are now.  DDs garnered a lot of anger.  I honestly can't remember which were hated more by BBs, Carriers or Destroyers.

 

IJN DDs were THE DESTROYER LINE.

No nerfs to torps have happened yet, no high detection IJN torps.

CVs were about to get nerfed and population reduced (CVs at launch and first few months were very common).  Far fewer CVs to spot DDs and their torpedoes.

Radar on Cruisers was a very limited thing.  Des Moines in that video above, did not have Radar yet.

Atlanta didn't get Radar until mid-late 2016.  Oh, a lot of DDs got surprised by that change :Smile_teethhappy:

With no proliferation of Radar Cruisers, less CVs with planes in the air, the game was heaven for DDs, especially IJN DDs.

 

IJN DDs were in full swing, with the Old Tier V Minekaze (which Fujin / Kamikaze / Kamikaze-R are Premium Copies of today) clubbing the sh*t out of low tier and Shimakaze beign the Queen of High Tier Torpedo Destroyers.  Let's not forget the darling of IJN DDs that nobody mentions anymore, the Old Tier VIII Fubuki.

 

The game was very different and the population felt quite different.  I still remember 3 things people were constantly screaming for, in no particular order:

- Nerf CVs

- Nerf Torpedoes

- Nerf Destroyers

 

That's what people hated and posted about, so much that even Stealth Fire wasn't such a bad thing to people :Smile_teethhappy:

Edited by HazeGrayUnderway
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13 minutes ago, NCC81701 said:

CA and BB  have the same responsibility...

They might in theory, but not in practice.  There is no arguing that DDs have more flexibility, they also have average the lowest survival rates.  DDs are high risk ships, they aren't high reward.  I can understand why some people want to change. 

1 minute ago, Shadeylark said:

has anyone done the math here... which is worth more, getting the win bonus from spotting and winning, or missing out on the win bonus but getting damage?

I'm sure that depends on any number of particulars.  For the sake of discussion lets assume you get more for capping/spotting/winning.  The problem is the chances of winning are 50/50.  In the long run you'll lose out on a lot of XP by going for capping and spotting.

Edited by Slimeball91

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Speaking as someone who plays DDs more than any other ship type by a relatively wide margin, I have some thoughts on this.

1. There's no rule that says that you have to forcibly take a cap ASAP.  If you get to a cap and see that it's highly contested, don't just stay there and be the target for half the enemy team.  Get the heck out of there, but try to continue spotting the enemy so that your team can try to destroy the enemy ships around that cap or drive them away from the cap, so that you can THEN take the cap.  Dying just to take a cap in the early game is stupid.

2. Unless WG really did reduce the XP value for capping (or defending caps, for that matter), capping is a very valuable thing for DDs to do.  Just read point #1 above.

3. Spotting.  Yes, it's not really clear how valuable spotting is for a DD's XP.  It would be nice if WG would give us a sense of this.

4. @pewpewpew42 You make a good point about adding achievements for DDs actions like capping and spotting.  But what would the reward be?  Here are some thoughts.

Capture The Flags (the achievement for multiple caps in a battle):  A couple possibilities.  A)  A signal flag that gives you an economic bonus for capping (i.e. credits, XP, Commander's XP, or Free XP).  B)  A signal flag that gives your DD a "speed bonus" for faster capping while you fly this signal.  C) Perhaps 2-3 Dragon signal flags (the big bonus to Commander's XP).  I actually think that I like option C, mostly because it's simple and wouldn't require any new signals, but is a valuable reward.

Fleet Scout (the achievement for spotting X amount of damage in a battle):  I'm thinking that this one might also have a reward of 2-3 Dragon signal flags.  

 

5.

45 minutes ago, NCC81701 said:

I don't know why there needs to be more incentive than increasing your odds of winning.  The win bonus alone makes it  worth doing DD things, everything else is just cherry on top.  

NCC, the problem with that outlook is that the other ship types are able to play for damage, which is a very obvious action that helps the team, but is also well rewarded, win or lose.  However, DDs doing subtle little things that often help teams win doesn't seem to do all that much if your team can't leverage all your subtle, but hard work into a win.  It's kinda why the ideas that pewpewpew42 suggested are a good idea.  They show that you were doing good DD work for the team when those medals show up next to your DD in the team page of the after action report.

 

 

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2 hours ago, Venac said:

WG what incentive have you given DD to do their job when it comes to risk vs reward? Not talking about sinking ships damage has always ruled for XP. I am talking about capping and spotting and the lack of incentive to do so. 

1- There is very little xp reward for capping and spotting vs just doing damage. 

2- With radar and all the other anti DD nerfs that have been added to the game capping and spotting have become a huge risk. 

I am not saying DD should not spot or cap, but why should a BB and some CA be able to sit back fling shells and get sweet XP for damage for little risk while a DD trying to cap and or spot get low XP for a much greater risk? It is time that Capping and spotting XP get a boost and doing so may even get more BB/CA players a reason to advance forward also. 

Flame retardant suit on i may need it :Smile_glasses:

Well the problem stems from Wargaming having double standards when it comes to their own balance path.

They claim the game is supposed to be Rock-Paper-Scissors (their own words) and then contradict that very statement by adding in MM limits for only 1 ship type and not the other 2 that are a part of that RPS circle. They also contradict that design by having only one hard counter in the game (radar).

Lets take realism out of the argument entirely for a moment because no-one honest with themselves wants that, I don't care what ship you prefer.
How about we discuss it as gaming in general. Which archetype (class/type/etc) is expected and supposed to be, in every other game to be at the forefront of pushes? Which archetype (class/type/etc) is expected and supposed to be the primary "capper" in a game that has capture points?

Well that would be any class that embodies the "tank". A tank in gaming is actually defined by an archetype that has the highest coded, binary attributes designed for survivability, ergo Effective Hit points.... armor....self heals... even a combination of above.

Which archetype in WoWs, embodies that? Battleships. The problem right now is that archetype embodies the combination of more than just a "tank" in gaming but other attributes never been attempted because even a partial combination is certainly overpowered on paper already. We are seeing attributes akin to ..... Burst damage....Sniper...etc

The problem this game faces, is that it is NOT being balanced in a direction based on objective fact (Statistics/metrics), nor has it been for a long time. Balance changes, unfortunately for years, have been purely on emotion constructed from vocal minorities combined with developer bias. There is no dev to playerbase honesty. Unfortunately, accurate statistics, or rather the ability to filter out bias and skew, is not simple for everyone nor is it an obvious requirement... when it is most certainly a requirement. To simplify... If say a new USN CL was released... and it showed to be over performing in the first month according to the obvious server statistics, but still suffered from a small sample size. Is this justification for a nerf? What about if there are lots of forum threads complaining about it being overpowered? Nope. It is not. You see there are far more complexities to statistics and how they relate to something overperforming/underperforming objectively.

How about we take a look at one statistic alone that is actually reflected of something objectively overperforming?  Battleship accuracy.
If you take a look at any T10 BB server statistic for MBH which is "Main battery hit rate", and compare it to the MBH to T10 cruisers... see the difference? Only a mere 5-7%.  Don't see a problem there? That is okay. I will explain it, because this is the root of all balance issues in game right now. This is the cause for the "cascade" and perpetrated by the developers own favoritism for their "cash cow" ship type. H
How about the average achievable max range for your T10 BBs compared to T10 cruisers? It is around a 6-10 KM difference. 
Would you also agree that not only in personal experience but a large sample size of evidence available that the majority of BBs, and the high tier BB meta involves "sniping" or "back camping" for the most part?  Yes. Clearly.
So why is the accuracy gap for cruisers and Battleships so small? Because Battleship accuracy is overpowered. This overperformance is reinforced by the Burst damage difference as well, which is king in PVP btw.

It doesn't matter that Cruisers have a higher RoF, the short distance to target combined with having far more access to heightened velocities (Hindy, Moskva, Zao)... the average accuracy statistics should be night and day between BBs and cruisers. This is also reinforced that the targets are generally going to be in motion. Thus this should increase the difficulty in hitting a target in relation to distance to target and as that distance increases. 

So.... how do we make the game more balanced and give DDs at the very least, a feeling of more reward for their risk? Well its not a question of taking away risk, I certainly wouldn't want that. It is a question of expected duty. If there was less reliance on "caps" and more of an expected duty for "Spotting" and "Flanking" to defeat the very archetype they are ***MEANT** to counter (See Rock-Paper-Scissors).... well...the reward is already there.

If you nerf Battleship accuracy by a large amount, even if you buff them against fires at the same time, you will inherently shift the meta and the path of least resistance for your average BB player. No longer will it be efficient, no longer will it be profitable to back camp, nor snipe from long ranges. No longer will they see the damage and kills pile up from simply sitting at ranges where only opposing players of the same archetype have any chance of real retaliation. They will now be forced to play more aggressive. Which also means cruiser players have less fear of being sniped for 50%+ Hp just for being anywhere not behind an island, from extreme ranges. Whilst this also gives DDs more of a meta shift of being able to hunt BBs at the same time performing the "spotter" role, it also gives cruisers a little more "room to play with" when it comes to the hunting of those very DDs. Such a meta shift would also give BBs a more natural protection from things like CVs... because being more aggressive..also equates to being closer to allies...which also equates to more congested AA
 

Edited by zarth12
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Grab a couple of caps in my kidd, get 20-30k DD damage ..

 

/Profit 

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23 minutes ago, Crucis said:

2. Unless WG really did reduce the XP value for capping (or defending caps, for that matter), capping is a very valuable thing for DDs to do.  Just read point #1 above.

I can't remember which patch it was, but they did lower XP earned for capping/defending caps for DD's.  It was the same patch where they buffed XP for capping and merely taking damage for BBs in an effort to reduce BB back camping.  We see how well those changes and umpteen other ones like it have reduced that problem so it ended up being yet another straight nerf to DDs.  

 

22 minutes ago, zarth12 said:

A long, but very well written post by zarth12.  See above.
 

Excellent points and post.  +1.

41 minutes ago, HazeGrayUnderway said:

It was also a time when Destroyers were in a much stronger position than they are now.  DDs garnered a lot of anger.  I honestly can't remember which were hated more by BBs, Carriers or Destroyers.

IJN DDs were THE DESTROYER LINE.

No nerfs to torps have happened yet, no high detection IJN torps.

CVs were about to get nerfed and population reduced (CVs at launch and first few months were very common).  Far fewer CVs to spot DDs and their torpedoes.

Radar on Cruisers was a very limited thing.  Des Moines in that video above, did not have Radar yet.

Atlanta didn't get Radar until mid-late 2016.  Oh, a lot of DDs got surprised by that change :Smile_teethhappy:

With no proliferation of Radar Cruisers, less CVs with planes in the air, the game was heaven for DDs, especially IJN DDs.

IJN DDs were in full swing, with the Old Tier V Minekaze (which Fujin / Kamikaze / Kamikaze-R are Premium Copies of today) clubbing the sh*t out of low tier and Shimakaze beign the Queen of High Tier Torpedo Destroyers.  Let's not forget the darling of IJN DDs that nobody mentions anymore, the Old Tier VIII Fubuki.

The game was very different and the population felt quite different.  I still remember 3 things people were constantly screaming for, in no particular order:

- Nerf CVs

- Nerf Torpedoes

- Nerf Destroyers

 

That's what people hated and posted about, so much that even Stealth Fire wasn't such a bad thing to people :Smile_teethhappy:

Yep and it was fun times and a more balanced game.  When BB drivers were willing to move forward and offer protection for cruisers and get within their effective range in exchange AA cover because otherwise a CV would wipe them off the map.  

It's funny with all the changes they have made in 3 years to "balance" the game, it has just become more unbalanced and biased towards 1 class and how we ended up here with the boring stale meta we are all stuck in.

Personally hope CV players get their much deserved overhaul soon and the CV population comes back 10 fold.  The wailing of BB drivers will be joyous to the ears.

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