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JdeMolay

Alsace secondaries

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Situation:

I have started my Alsace cap on the road to a secondary build. I have all the range upgrades so I am getting the 11.3 range but do not have the manual fire control for a (-60% dispersion) cap perk yet. I have noticed that I still get a ton of hits and do a great deal of damage with the secondaries. It is also nice to have her shoot at two ships at once. More than once I have brawled against two BB's and sunk them both. So I am wondering....

Question:

Is the Alsace secondary base dispersion better than the Germans?

Is it worth it to add manual fire control if it is still hitting targets a bunch?

Thoughts? (especially from Alsace drivers with a secondary build?

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Well if you're going for a secondary build then yes Manual Fire Control is a necessary skill. That 60% dispersion buff is huge and if you are hitting a lot of shots now you'll be hitting a lot more with it. 

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My clanmate runs full secondary build with manual secondaries. 13.7 range and averages over 300 hits.

I run a balanced build. Module survivability mod. main gun accuracy mod. BFT and AFT. They get out to around 11 km, but my AA is respectable as well.

All depends on your style of play with the ship.

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The Alsace secondary build I feel is better than the German one.

But if you want to be most effective with it get yourself into a kiteing position and just toggle speed to keep them in range while keeping a good angle.

It has the most secondaries when firing from the rear and you can still get all your main guns on target.

Trouble with the German BB's is they require you to show at lot of side to get the secondaries really going and that can lead to lots of big hits to the superstructure.

The Alsace secondaries do not reward you always with good damage because the shell caliber is so low but they set plenty of fires and we all know how many BB's love to use DCP on the first fire.

 

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5 hours ago, JdeMolay said:

Situation:

I have started my Alsace cap on the road to a secondary build. I have all the range upgrades so I am getting the 11.3 range but do not have the manual fire control for a (-60% dispersion) cap perk yet. I have noticed that I still get a ton of hits and do a great deal of damage with the secondaries. It is also nice to have her shoot at two ships at once. More than once I have brawled against two BB's and sunk them both. So I am wondering....

Question:

Is the Alsace secondary base dispersion better than the Germans?

Is it worth it to add manual fire control if it is still hitting targets a bunch?

Thoughts? (especially from Alsace drivers with a secondary build?

1.  Not really sure, because in Secondary Spec, Alsace fires them so fast.  With "the works" her 100mm guns fire at around 2.2 second reloads.

 

2.  IMO, yes.  The improved dispersion is needed when the secondaries engagement is further out.  Sure, if the DD is at 5km away, not having Manual Secondaries isn't a big deal.  But it's being able to reliably hit at longer range is the difference.

 

Alsace secondaries are also good fire starters because of the reload speed of the guns.

 

If you haven't already, you'll eventually see the argument of incorporating IFHE or not with an Alsace Secondaries Build.  The short version of it:

Without IFHE

+ Save 4 points for the build!

+ Secondaries still reliably damage Cruisers and Destroyers

- Secondaries will do zero to very low direct, shell damage against BBs and their 19mm superstructures.  I've had an instance of 300+ secondary hits on a Missouri for 760-ish shell damage.  If it wasn't for the Fires being set, my Secondaries would have done no damage to the BB.

Edit:  Image below of Alsace Non-IFHE Secondary effects on a Missouri.

cPwEmxf.jpg

 

With IFHE

+ Secondaries can now reliably damage all ship types, including Battleships, with direct shell damage, on top of fires being set.

- Secondary Builds are already very costly in captain points, and IFHE makes that even more expensive.  Often, Concealment Expert is sacrificed to have AFT+IFHE+Manual Secondaries.  Adding BFT to have faster shooting secondaries is another high cost.

 

Edit:

I did an experiment with Alsace when she first came out.  I went to a training room, picked out all the Tier IX BBs to use as targets.  Went to each of them at about 8km and let Alsace Secondaries fire on them for 2 minutes each.

 

Without IFHE, all the Tier IX BBs survived with around 28k-32k HP.

With IFHE, all the BBs were destroyed.

 

It must be stressed though, that incorporating IFHE into the build is costly, I gave up Concealment Expert for that.

Edited by HazeGrayUnderway
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On 4/19/2018 at 2:51 PM, HazeGrayUnderway said:

1.  Not really sure, because in Secondary Spec, Alsace fires them so fast.  With "the works" her 100mm guns fire at around 2.2 second reloads.

 

2.  IMO, yes.  The improved dispersion is needed when the secondaries engagement is further out.  Sure, if the DD is at 5km away, not having Manual Secondaries isn't a big deal.  But it's being able to reliably hit at longer range is the difference.

 

Alsace secondaries are also good fire starters because of the reload speed of the guns.

 

If you haven't already, you'll eventually see the argument of incorporating IFHE or not with an Alsace Secondaries Build.  The short version of it:

Without IFHE

+ Save 4 points for the build!

+ Secondaries still reliably damage Cruisers and Destroyers

- Secondaries will do zero to very low direct, shell damage against BBs and their 19mm superstructures.  I've had an instance of 300+ secondary hits on a Missouri for 760-ish shell damage.  If it wasn't for the Fires being set, my Secondaries would have done no damage to the BB.

Edit:  Image below of Alsace Non-IFHE Secondary effects on a Missouri.

cPwEmxf.jpg

 

With IFHE

+ Secondaries can now reliably damage all ship types, including Battleships, with direct shell damage, on top of fires being set.

- Secondary Builds are already very costly in captain points, and IFHE makes that even more expensive.  Often, Concealment Expert is sacrificed to have AFT+IFHE+Manual Secondaries.  Adding BFT to have faster shooting secondaries is another high cost.

 

Edit:

I did an experiment with Alsace when she first came out.  I went to a training room, picked out all the Tier IX BBs to use as targets.  Went to each of them at about 8km and let Alsace Secondaries fire on them for 2 minutes each.

 

Without IFHE, all the Tier IX BBs survived with around 28k-32k HP.

With IFHE, all the BBs were destroyed.

 

It must be stressed though, that incorporating IFHE into the build is costly, I gave up Concealment Expert for that.

I'm going to give your IFHE build a try, one question through, I still have 1 point left on my old 19pt Dunkerque captain, does the Hull B Alsace still have a catapult fighter?

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3 hours ago, Sventex said:

I'm going to give your IFHE build a try, one question through, I still have 1 point left on my old 19pt Dunkerque captain, does the Hull B Alsace still have a catapult fighter?

Yes, she still keeps it.

ZL1tMgn.jpg

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On 4/19/2018 at 2:51 PM, HazeGrayUnderway said:

It must be stressed though, that incorporating IFHE into the build is costly, I gave up Concealment Expert for that.

Agreed, BUT if you are going full secondary with IFHE the idea is to be close so concealment is moot. As a side not I decided to try IFHE on my GK full secondary, the difference in damage output is stunning and shocking, but the GK has much bigger calibre secondary guns. I also changed first module to protect secondaries rather than main battery and I have not noticed my mains going out much more. However you have to get good with DC and RP to stay in the fight as long as possible.

 

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On 4/22/2018 at 7:25 PM, HazeGrayUnderway said:

Yes, she still keeps it.

ZL1tMgn.jpg

I found this interesting.  While struggling to pen a Des Moines in my Alsace at close range with aP (with 10 hits only netting 3154 damage) the secondary hits did the real work, causing 20,149 damage from the HE rain.

fnhj7Yp.jpg

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22 hours ago, Sventex said:

I found this interesting.  While struggling to pen a Des Moines in my Alsace at close range with aP (with 10 hits only netting 3154 damage) the secondary hits did the real work, causing 20,149 damage from the HE rain.

fnhj7Yp.jpg

The secondaries eat Cruisers alive.  You can still hear their screams as they travel down to your stomach.

 

Certain high tier Cruisers have 27mm bows that let them bow tank 380mm or smaller shells, which is what I figured happened to your Alsace's main battery AP.  There was a funny case about 2 months ago where 2 Bismarcks were entering Cap B of Warrior's Path from the south.

6FDwvDk.jpg

(Above image wasn't from the actual match itself, just using it to show for others specifically the map the event took place on.)

I was hiding my DM in the island north of Cap B waiting for the BBs to commit.  When they were in the cap, I pushed and bow tanked both Tier VIII BBs with DM.  Their 380mm guns were ineffective.  Their secondaries could not keep up with the damage I was dealing with my fast guns in <10km gun range.  I sank both BBs with 1 Cruiser due to gunfire.

 

The other 27mm bow High Tier Cruisers?

VIII

Prinz Eugen / Admiral Hipper

IX

Roon

Baltimore

X

Hindenburg

Des Moines

Edited by HazeGrayUnderway

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1 minute ago, HazeGrayUnderway said:

The secondaries eat Cruisers alive.  You can still hear their screams as they travel down to your stomach.

 

Certain high tier Cruisers have 27mm bows that let them bow tank 380mm or smaller shells, which is what I figured happened to your Alsace's main battery AP.  There was a funny case about 2 months ago where 2 Bismarcks were entering Cap B of Warrior's Path from the south.

160px-Warrior's_Path.png

I was hiding my DM in the island north of Cap B waiting for the BBs to commit.  When they were in the cap, I pushed and bow tanked both Tier VIII BBs with DM.  Their 380mm guns were ineffective.  Their secondaries could not keep up with the damage I was dealing with my fast guns in <10km gun range.  I sank both BBs with 1 Cruiser due to gunfire.

 

The other 27mm bow High Tier Cruisers?

VIII

Prinz Eugen / Admiral Hipper

IX

Roon

Baltimore

X

Hindenburg

Des Moines

He wasn't bow tanking, he was like at a 20-35 degree angle on me, turning broadside at like 9km but most of the shots kept bouncing.  I admit I don't recall the autobounce angles that cruisers have so I may have mistakenly thought the monstrous penetration would have gotten the AP shells to punch through.

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6 minutes ago, Sventex said:

He wasn't bow tanking, he was like at a 20-35 degree angle on me, turning broadside at like 9km but most of the shots kept bouncing.  I admit I don't recall the autobounce angles that cruisers have so I may have mistakenly thought the monstrous penetration would have gotten the AP shells to punch through.

Yeah, that's the failure of 380mm shells in some of these high tier scenarios.  If you were in a BB with 406mm+ guns, they would have ended that dance pretty harshly.  Maybe 1-2 salvos but the DM would still get a healthy amount of HP off in that time.

 

Could have been worse though.  It could have been a Hindenburg in super short range :Smile_Default:

Edited by HazeGrayUnderway

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I don't do manual secondaries for 3 reasons. First is they don't work without designating a target.  Second, it's nice to get the warning when a DD sneaks up on you.  Third, If you find yourself between 2 enemy, you are firing on both of them.

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On ‎4‎/‎19‎/‎2018 at 1:54 PM, dEsTurbed1 said:

My clanmate runs full secondary build with manual secondaries. 13.7 range and averages over 300 hits.

I run a balanced build. Module survivability mod. main gun accuracy mod. BFT and AFT. They get out to around 11 km, but my AA is respectable as well.

All depends on your style of play with the ship.

It is impossible to get 13.7km range from Alsace's secondary guns. Max range possible with everything (ie; Capt skills, modules, and flag) that will extend range is 11.3km.

Edited by AdmiralThunder

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On ‎4‎/‎19‎/‎2018 at 12:02 PM, JdeMolay said:

Situation:

I have started my Alsace cap on the road to a secondary build. I have all the range upgrades so I am getting the 11.3 range but do not have the manual fire control for a (-60% dispersion) cap perk yet. I have noticed that I still get a ton of hits and do a great deal of damage with the secondaries. It is also nice to have her shoot at two ships at once. More than once I have brawled against two BB's and sunk them both. So I am wondering....

Question:

Is the Alsace secondary base dispersion better than the Germans?

Is it worth it to add manual fire control if it is still hitting targets a bunch?

Thoughts? (especially from Alsace drivers with a secondary build?

I went secondary build minus the Manual Secondary's. Just don't find them a huge benefit. Went with them on my 19pt GK Capt (use on Tirpitz and Scharnhorst too) because everyone on the forums said they were so great if you go this route but I actually don't find them a big improvement. If anything I get less hits and damage as they only work when you select a target and will only fire at that one. I actually prefer having them go from both sides of the ship at once and to start on their own as I am usually occupied with multiple ships around me. I  just don't have the time or hands free to select  a target all the time and when I don't they sit quiet and do nothing for me. I get better secondary performance from Alsace and Republique than I do GK without the Manual Secondary skill.

Manual secondary's are fine when you can single out 1 target and have the time to do so. I find it annoying to do so and hate that doing so means losing all the guns on the other side of the ship. I wish it worked like Manual AA in that it increases dispersion of the guns on the selected target but any gun that can't come to bear on the targeted ship cans till work normally on others within range. The 4 pt skill benefit of better dispersion doesn't seem to really be worth it to me. Feels like the points could be better used elsewhere.

Alsace is a great ship and the secondary guns are pretty good even without Manual Secondary's. They start a lot of fires. IMO however CE would be a better use of those 4 pts. But YMMV.

Edited by AdmiralThunder

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16 hours ago, AdmiralThunder said:

It is impossible to get 13.7km range from Alsace's secondary guns. Max range possible with everything (ie; Capt skills, modules, and flag) that will extend range is 11.3km.

My bad must have confused it with the Republique. 

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20 hours ago, dEsTurbed1 said:

My bad must have confused it with the Republique. 

No problem but just FYI no BB in the game can reach out that far with it's secondary's no matter how much you boost them. Republique and GK have the most range and only Republique can break 12km and that is barely. Neither can reach to 13.7km in any configuration.

Republique can get the furthest. If you equip the ship/Capt with  SBM2 + AFT + Mike Yankee Soxisix Flag (+5% range) you can get out to 12.1km (12.075). GK can get to 11.7km (11.655). These 2 ships can't exceed 12.2km never mind hit 13.7km. Someone gave you incorrect info.   

Not being a jerk about this. Just want you to have the correct info.:Smile_honoring:

Edited by AdmiralThunder

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16 hours ago, AdmiralThunder said:

No problem but just FYI no BB in the game can reach out that far with it's secondary's no matter how much you boost them. Republique and GK have the most range and only Republique can break 12km and that is barely. Neither can reach to 13.7km in any configuration.

Republique can get the furthest. If you equip the ship/Capt with  SBM2 + AFT + Mike Yankee Soxisix Flag (+5% range) you can get out to 12.1km (12.075). GK can get to 11.7km (11.655). These 2 ships can't exceed 12.2km never mind hit 13.7km. Someone gave you incorrect info.   

Not being a jerk about this. Just want you to have the correct info.:Smile_honoring:

Doesn't manual secondaries increase range?

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3 minutes ago, dEsTurbed1 said:

Doesn't manual secondaries increase range?

Nope. It just reduces dispersion. Here are what the various things do that can boost secondary gun stats (not counting DE, IFHE, or Flags that can influence fire and damage stats)....

Captain Skills:

  • BFT = -10% reload time
  • AFT = +20%  range
  • Manual Sec = -15% dispersion (T1-T6) / -60% dispersion (T7-T10)

Ship Modules:

  • SBM2 = +20% range / -20% dispersion
  • SBM3 = -20% reload time
  • ASM1 = +5% range / -5% dispersion
  • APRM1 (US BB Only) = +5% range / -5% dispersion

Flags:

  • Mike Yankee Soxisix = +5% range / -5% reload / -5% dispersion

There is no combo of the above that can be mounted on any ship in the game currently that can bump secondary guns to 13.7km. Republique has the furthest range currently and I gave you the stats earlier.

Hope this helps. :Smile_honoring:

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4 hours ago, AdmiralThunder said:

Nope. It just reduces dispersion. Here are what the various things do that can boost secondary gun stats (not counting DE, IFHE, or Flags that can influence fire and damage stats)....

Captain Skills:

  • BFT = -10% reload time
  • AFT = +20%  range
  • Manual Sec = -15% dispersion (T1-T6) / -60% dispersion (T7-T10)

Ship Modules:

  • SBM2 = +20% range / -20% dispersion
  • SBM3 = -20% reload time
  • ASM1 = +5% range / -5% dispersion
  • APRM1 (US BB Only) = +5% range / -5% dispersion

Flags:

  • Mike Yankee Soxisix = +5% range / -5% reload / -5% dispersion

There is no combo of the above that can be mounted on any ship in the game currently that can bump secondary guns to 13.7km. Republique has the furthest range currently and I gave you the stats earlier.

Hope this helps. :Smile_honoring:

Thank you very much sir.

I do find on my Alsace with sbm2 and aam3? And BFT, AFT that she is pretty balanced .

I did not go full secondary build.

My clan mate goes full blown secondary and get almost twice as Manu secondary hits as me...

 

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1 hour ago, dEsTurbed1 said:

Thank you very much sir.

I do find on my Alsace with sbm2 and aam3? And BFT, AFT that she is pretty balanced .

I did not go full secondary build.

My clan mate goes full blown secondary and get almost twice as Manu secondary hits as me...

 

MS works for some people I guess. I do as well or better doing the secondary build but not using MS. Have had 350+ hit games in Alsace without MS.

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Almost a necro thread but I am late to the Alsace party. Arriving after WG tried to shut the party down. Trying the secondary build and am thus far underwhelmed. First note: I do not have IFHE or Manual Secondaries yet. From comments in this thread MS might not work for me as I often use the sound of the secondaries to alert me that somebody is getting close. Have to think about further investment in the build for IFHE.

I find I can get lots of hits but the damage is tiny and, for some reason, I get very few fires. I can end up with a hundred hits for about 50pts per hit and only 2 fires. Is this normal?

Would IFHE help the 100mm pen anything? Should help the 6". It would lower the fire chance even more too.

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On 10/18/2018 at 4:09 PM, Sabot_100 said:

Almost a necro thread but I am late to the Alsace party. Arriving after WG tried to shut the party down. Trying the secondary build and am thus far underwhelmed. First note: I do not have IFHE or Manual Secondaries yet. From comments in this thread MS might not work for me as I often use the sound of the secondaries to alert me that somebody is getting close. Have to think about further investment in the build for IFHE.

I find I can get lots of hits but the damage is tiny and, for some reason, I get very few fires. I can end up with a hundred hits for about 50pts per hit and only 2 fires. Is this normal?

Would IFHE help the 100mm pen anything? Should help the 6". It would lower the fire chance even more too.

Understand that without Manual Secondaries, you get less hits over time unless that target is super close to you, i.e. so close that you can throw potatoes at the other ship and hit it.

 

As for IFHE, it helps the 100mm Secondaries pen the superstructure of High Tier BBs.  Without IFHE, your shells will struggle to do direct damage to High Tier Battleships.  One of my first games with Alsace had a brawl with a Missouri.  I had hundreds upon hundreds upon hundreds of Secondary hits on Missouri, but all I did was a whopping 274 shell damage.  Fires ended up doing the damage for my Secondaries, but I don't like to rely on a form of damage that can be repaired back 100% by Repair Party.

 

I don't know anyone that's done an Alsace Secondaries Build without Manual Secondaries but having IFHE.  Not saying it isn't valid.  I don't know what your results will exactly be.

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18 hours ago, HazeGrayUnderway said:

I don't know anyone that's done an Alsace Secondaries Build without Manual Secondaries but having IFHE.

As I mentioned, having manual secondaries concerns me because I HAVE to target a ship to get the secondaries to fire. (unless my understanding is wrong). This negates the proximity ship warning effect of the guns. Not ruling it out, but concerned.

 

Edited by Sabot_100

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