Jump to content
You need to play a total of 10 battles to post in this section.
Kongo_Pride

Kongo’s Treatise of Tier VII Destroyer Gameplay (Part I)

16 comments in this topic

Recommended Posts

403
[CUTER]
Members
672 posts
18,508 battles

Kongo’s Treatise of Tier VII Destroyer Gameplay (Part I)

Period of Observations:  (1 December 2017 -  8 April 2018)

Sources:  Warships Today, WOWs Wiki, Personal Experience

Introduction:  This write-up will provide players with an in-depth guide to running destroyers at Tier VII, the strengths and weaknesses of each ship, and personal recommendations on the strengths of these ships.  Lastly, this work will provide my thoughts on which ships are performing well within their tier, and which ones are in desperate need of improvement.

Tier VII destroyers can be one of the most rewarding and challenging classes of ships to play in the game.  Rewarding in that, usually, on decent games, you can haul in copious amounts of experience, credits, and  carry a game with ease.  Challenging in that you suffer from two unique aspects, which often impair the Tier VII destroyers when playing against counterparts of a higher tier.  These two aspects are concealment and rate of fire and or turret traverse.

A common theme with Tier VII destroyers is that they have terrible concealment when set against destroyers of both higher and lower tier.  To give a perspective of this, at their best, with all modifications available, Tier VII DDs have a range of 5.8km to 6.9km in concealment over the total of 9 ships giving them an average concealment of 6.53km.  The other tiers they face have variables as well, but almost none as bad as Tier VII, save Tier IX because of the poor concealment of the Russian Tashkent.  For example, Tier V, ranges from 5.4km to 6.8km over 10 ships but has an average concealment of 5.83km, a total of .7km better than the more “powerful” higher tier VII destroyers.  Tier VI has a range of 5.8km to 6.8km and averages 6.32km concealment across 10 ships.  As for Tier VIII, there is a clear difference, and it often shows when the two meet in contests when knife fighting is about to occur.  Tier VIII boasts concealment of 5.4km to 7.9km and has an average of 6.02km across nine ships.  Tier IX is the one tier where Tier VII can compete, but only because of the advent of the Tashkent.  The Tashkent is a pure gunboat at the following tier (Khaba) and it certainly has an impact because there is only six ships in the tier.  I promise you, in a knife fight, no Tier VII is going to win against the Tashkent on guns alone with near peer health pools.  The Tier IXs have a range of 5.5km to 9.1km and average 6.67km.  Even with the terrible concealment of the Tashkent, the tier average is just .14km worse than the Tier VII average. 

What this clearly illustrates is that Tier VII destroyers are handicapped against almost every other tier of destroyer they encounter on the battlefield, and this is often exploited to the benefit of those wily DD drivers.  Knowing a Mahan or other poor concealment DD is going to contest the same cap as you provides you with the ability to properly address their plan of action and attack them accordingly. 

Turret traverse can also be a factor in determining a knife fight for destroyers.  Looking at the tier just above, you can quickly determine that Tier VIII destroyers have benefited from a major improvement in turret traverse over their previous tiered counterparts.  The Mahan for example is no where near the speed of the Benson when getting those turrets trained on a target, and it often takes longer to bring all guns into the fight.  The 180 degree turret traverse of the Mahan is around 12 seconds, while the Benson can get the same task done in 5.3 seconds.  This means their guns are involved in the knife fight far quicker than that of their lower tier counterpart.  The Russian DDs Minsk and Leningrad also suffer from this when compared to the Kiev and Ognevoi.  The Minsk is at 19.1 seconds in the turret traverse and the Leningrad at 27.7 seconds.  This puts tier VIIs at a severe disadvantage when facing the turret traverse of the Kiev at 14.8 seconds or the Ognevoi at nine seconds.  This slower turret traverse is noticeable, especially in close quarters, where the slightest turn throws off the aiming systems.

The rate of fire is also a concern especially when going against higher tier DDs.  This coupled with turret traverse puts Tier VII DDs in a unique position in that they will often be the first one spotted and in a knife fight, and will often be outgunned by the time they can even bring their barrels to bear on a target.  That is not to say there are not strengths in these ships, but it is a very clear disadvantage for the whole tier, that makes them vulnerable when facing off with +1 peer or higher tiered ships.  All of this negativity aside, they can be great work horses and will take care of their captain as long as the captain takes care of the ship.

The strengths of this tier cannot be understated.  At this point in the DD line, most of the destroyers are nearly developed as far as maximum number of guns or are at least well on their way.  The amount of gun muzzles and refined torpedo power really let’s this tier shine and commit to persistent damage with main batteries while complimenting their main battery with deadly stealth torpedo attacks, save the Minsk.  For many, stealth torpedo launchers are progressive and are realized at different points throughout the lines.  Tier VII destroyers really begin to come into their own with stealth fire torpedoes at this tier with many having 8km plus torpedo systems.  The Mahan for example allows stealth fire torps, albeit they are slow and deal substandard damage for their tier.  A fun metric, is taking the distance of all torpedo launchers at this tier and comparing it to the stealth.  On average you gain a 2.1km buffer between stealth and torpedo maximum range.  Obviously, the Minsk is not a stealth boat, but does factor into this overall equation. 

I found that most of the time, if I was in a gun fight with a lower tier ship that was spotted, by a fellow DD, they usually did not escape the fight alive.  The firepower for the tier is often overwhelming for lesser tier DDs with smaller health pools.  However, when the enemy spotted me first, I was often forced to charge into their designs, eating cruiser fire to get to my prey.  In many instances, I merely ended up trading because they saw me and set up a trap all the while allowing their team to weaken me.  This also complicates “stealth” torpedo boats who would prefer to get in close to maximize the number of torpedo hits they can land while minimizing the chances of an enemy ship turning out from such an attack.  Ideally, a DD captain wants as little distance between him and his target as possible, because people will not sail in straight lines forever…although I am sure, most DD drivers would prefer this.

That leads me to my thoughts on what makes the best ship for Tier VII destroyers.  The Gadjah Mada is clearly the best destroyer at Tier VII.  It is followed in this ranking by the Leningrad in second and the Blyskawica in third, but only by a hair’s margin.  The Maass takes up the fourth spot followed by the Minsk in fifth.  Beyond that, rounding out the bottom performers is the Akatsuki, Shiratsuyu, Sims, and finally the Mahan. 

The Gadjah Mada is clearly number one in my book for a variety of reasons.  First, it brings six guns to the fight and when bolstered by Basic Firing Training, that’s six barrels every 4.5 seconds rattling away and enemy ships.  Throw in your adrenaline rush and you are a monster at your tier.  Furthermore, it benefits from the second-best stealth for the tier.  The ships excellent performance is in much thanks to this concealment edge it has over its near peers.  It allows the Gadjah to get in close, and let loose powerful deep water torpedo barrages against unsuspecting enemy battlewagons.  And that of course, leads us to the torpedoes.  The torpedoes are fairly fast at 61 knots, have decent range for their tier at 8km, and pack a wallop doing almost 16k damage per a hit.  Their almost undetectability makes them really strong against all enemy ships outside of destroyers.  Even for all this, the Deep Water Torpedoes can be a bane for the Gadjah, as they are ineffective in knife fights against other DDs.  That said, I would still recommend this line and DD class as a great DD trainer because many players want to launch torpedoes first once spotted and then switch to guns when ideally, they should be hitting with guns first and then switching to torpedoes.  The Pan Asian line helps players learn to use their guns on instinct, which many times leads to easy one on one wins against other destroyers.  Lastly, the smoke, you have so many charges, you can literally go an entire battle unseen should you so chose to.

The Leningrad is easily the second-best destroyer in the tier and nearly as good as the Gadjah.  Despite its extreme speed, excellent guns, and good torpedoes, it suffers from two key drawbacks.  First, the turret traverse is sluggish, and secondly, the concealment is not ideal.  However, when fitted with a speed boost module, this destroyer can bring the fire-rain for days.  Unfortunately, it is not great at contesting caps in the early game like the Gadjah can.  It simply cannot sneak in without drawing attention and cruiser fire.  Therefore, you must skirt the edges and punish enemy DDs that get over zealous and expose themselves.  You will note, I averaged higher damage with the Leningrad over the Gadjah, but that does not tell the full tale as the Gadjah’s damage was of a higher quality and was done against more than just cruisers and battleships.

Coming in third is the Blyskawica or as I call it, the Blister Boat.  I only started playing the Blyskawica AFTER the stealth nerf and have zero comparison of how it performed before it was “nerfed.”  So, all I can say is, I am number two with it on the NA server and that the destroyer is still very very strong.  I say this because the broadside of the Blister Boat can unleash devastating strikes against other destroyers.  A spotted destroyer inside of 8km of any tier will regret it as I have seen damage in excess of 3k per a volley against them.  Furthermore, the 11 percent fire chance often left enemy battleships and cruisers burning out of control for most of the match.  That said, it struggled against full fledge Russian gun boats because they are simply faster and have the ability to tag it from greater distance.  The arcs of the shells are good, but are just a bit more floaty than the Russian counterpart, and this was often the catalyst for defeat in knife fights in excess of 8.5km.  Another downside is the torps are a bit slower at 57 knots and the damage is a bit more mediocre at just over 14k.  Again, concealment is an issue, a common theme at this tier.  However, I found this to be a solid pick for Tier VII destroyers, more than capable of holding its own in a knife fight or simply kiting an enemy ship and burning it down to the waterline.

That brings us to my recommendation of the fourth best overall DD in the tier, the Maass.  What does the Maass have going for it?  Well, it has poor concealment, mediocre guns, and torpedoes that are so-so for damage.  So, what is it?  Well, there are two really great strengths for this destroyer.  First, your torpedoes are not sets of three like the Blyska mentioned above.  So, you are able to put eight fish in the water and they have an additional .5km distance.  This .5km saved my neck on more than one occasion.  Second, your AP shells can hurt, a lot.  The arcs are good and I was able to citadel cruisers up to ranges of seven or even eight kilometers out.  However, the most important piece to this little tin can, is the hydro acoustic search.  This gives you the edge in a cap.  You can literally bully other destroyers, dodge their torps, and hunt them down in their smoke.  So many good DD captains met their doom to this hunter, especially once they smoked up and were stuck in their smoke as I closed the gap with hydro running.  And that is what makes this destroyer so special.  However, due to its insufficient damage, it certainly is no competitor with the top three.

Pulling in at the middle of the pack is the Minsk.  The Minsk is certainly not a pay to win ship like the Leningrad.  It has poor torpedoes and because of this, I averaged almost 14k less damage a game than the Leningrad.  The reality is obvious.  Ships that have longer range torpedoes tend to do more damage because they can combine their fire and dot damage with that of a flood or even just a torpedo hit and have a greater effect.  Otherwise, the Minsk is a solid boat for those grinding the line and should have no difficulty in kiting away and racking up the WTR.  That said, it is my personal opinion that WG missed something here when they released Leningrad, which is clearly superior in so many other ways followed by the Minsk, which is clearly in the same family, but inferior in almost all regards.  And with that, we move from the gunboats, to the torpedo boats.

When I first learned this game, I started off as a torpedo boat captain, running stealth IJN cruisers and destroyers.  I love the idea of sneaking up, using stealth torps and landing hits.  However, with this tier’s poor concealment, the gun boats have clearly taken the edge over their counterparts who must rely on stealth attacks, but are often faced against Kamikaze, Kagero, and Benson DDs, which all easily out-spot them.  Throw in the German DDs and Lo Yang with their hydro and the days of the IJN DD are numbered.  Furthermore, nerfs to their concealment, smoke, and torpedo detection have greatly influenced their fall from the peaks of supremacy at this tier since their inception to the game.  The Shiratsuyu simply lacks the 16 torpedo fire power it once had, the teeth were clearly removed and the Akatsuki has a concealment of 6.4km, which puts it at risk of getting spotted before launching torps and getting gunned down.  The guns and mediocre health pools of these destroyers is simply not enough to contest and or compete with its near peer brethren.  That said, when they do get off a good strike, they can devastate cruisers and battleships alike from Tier V all the way to Tier IX.  This is really what makes them just a cut above the bottom feeder destroyers of the tier.

Next up, we have the Sims.  I like the destroyer, do not get me wrong, but it is certainly lacking in gun utility.  The designers clearly wanted to give a Tier VII DD a chance against a CV and I appreciate that.  However, the lack of Carriers makes this destroyer a support destroyer with a anti CV gimmick that is only useful some of the time.  The torpedoes are wretched, slow and deal minimal damage.  They feel like Tier II-III torpedoes with a longer range.  In fact, when you look at them in comparison…that is what you are getting.  This is atrocious.  Next, throw in the mediocre guns because you only get four and there you have it…the Sims.  Did I mention a while back they nerfed the armor on this DD?  Reason, unknown.  Effect, just a more mediocre destroyer than before.  But because it does have good turret traverse and can be used in a CV division, it is just saved from the grasps of bottom DD.

Nobody likes to see a good ship nerfed, many would likely prefer to see a weak ship improved so that it can compete with other ships in its peer group.  The Mahan is at the bottom, both in Warships Today, total and last two weeks pulls, but also in my own experience as well.  For those that think the Mahan is up to standard of its peers, I would politely disagree for a trifecta of reasons that ultimately sink this ship.  First, the Mahan suffers from the worst concealment of any other Tier VII destroyer, which means alpha strike are often given to the opposing destroyer captain.  A Mahan can at best muster a 6.9km detection range, and too often many DDs will have hit them twice taking a 5k chunk from their health pool before they are even able to respond in combat.  And the response is usually short lived because they must smoke and slow down, taking even more damage in the process.  As a bully, this ship suffers from the fact that everyone can see it…and everyone can hurt it before it can hurt them.  Next, the second issue with the Mahan is the torpedoes.  They are fairly slow.  Even though she has the range, they rarely hit.  This also plays into her main battery.  The main battery is floaty and outside of 6 to 7km, she simply cannot hit or put out the damage necessary on a maneuvering target.  Thus her damage is much lower than that of her counterparts.  In Warships Today she is almost half the destroyer of the top tier, and even in my own player she is only two thirds capable.  It is clear for these reasons that the Mahan is weak, poor concealment, bad torps, and bad gun arcs.  Now, I love a bad ship and would love to see her improved.  Wargaming could easily fix this by giving her the same concealment as the Sims (6.6km at best) and following this up by improving Sims torpedo damage to that of say the Clemson at 11k?  Just my thoughts on how to improve this disaster.

So, in Conclusion, there is a lot to be consumed here.  I will be following this up with a later post on how to properly play a destroyer and avoiding Low Confidence Destroyer Play, which should not be misconstrued as passive play.  It is all too common and I feel it needs to be addressed (Part II).  But for, now, I wanted to give the community my thoughts on Tier VII destroyers and what they are capable of.  I will also address commander builds that worked for me in my Destroyers (Part III) and how to farm WTR in destroyers and which classes are best for it (Part IV).  More to follow…and as always looking for feedback and thoughts from likeminded players.  See stats attached for my individual performance, overall performance of the destroyers, and last two weeks from a snapshot.

image.png.758d53b9219856bb3dee1c7a14722965.pngimage.png.e0bf245f37c0604c6e4033b96fefabf0.pngimage.png.6791128e6aa2547fea5e467c558ab30b.png

Edited by Kongo_Pride
  • Cool 5

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
660
[UDEAD]
[UDEAD]
Beta Testers
1,023 posts
10,174 battles

I enjoyed your article a lot, and I agree with your rankings across the board.  It's a shame that the Mahan is such a "trap" DD compared to the massive improvement of the tier 8 Benson.    The Sims is chained performance wise to the Mahan, and it is unlikely they will buff one without having to buff the other.  Which for practical purposes means that neither will get buffed.  Close to 4.2 million games on the two in North America alone, and the worst damage dealers compared to every other tier 7 DD.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
405
[FAE]
Members
2,116 posts
2,507 battles

What exactly do you build for Blyska, and what do you do? How do you get in a position where the entire other team doesn't light you up on sight and make it incredibly frustrating to never deal any damage bacause you're clinging to life by 100hp the whole game and missing all your torpedoes?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
403
[CUTER]
Members
672 posts
18,508 battles
5 hours ago, BlailBlerg said:

What exactly do you build for Blyska, and what do you do? How do you get in a position where the entire other team doesn't light you up on sight and make it incredibly frustrating to never deal any damage bacause you're clinging to life by 100hp the whole game and missing all your torpedoes?

That is a really good question.  Especially given that you are playing a destroyer with a 6.8km detection.  Your average opponent will be playing a counter DD with .7km to .3km better concealment than your own.  I will be covering the build in a later post for all tier VII dds, but for you I will answer now.  

For modules;

Main Armaments Modification 1, Propulsion Modification 1, Aiming Systems Modification 1, and Steering Gears Modification 2

For Captain skills;

Priority Target, Preventative Maintenance, Adrenaline Rush, Last Stand, Survivability Expert, Basic Firing Training, Demolition Expert, and Concealment Expert.

One piece of advice I would give is to go to the edge.  Say you spawn on the A Cap side of the Land of Fire Map, don't go directly into the map.  Move at an angle, put yourself in a position to use the island for cover to limit cruiser fire, but at the same time return fire.  Let the battle develop and then take appropriate action.  Your torps are great for dealing with pushing cruisers.  Understand where radar ships are and try to avoid them...although I fully admit, I have gunned down my fair share of Atlantas, Flints, and Belfasts in this ship simply because your gun arcs are about the same at 10.5km and up...in fact yours are probably much better.  

If you try to push straight into the cap...you will reap exactly what you sew.  Impatient tactics are rewarded with swift deaths.  If you want further guidance send me a PM and I will be happy to div up with you and help you identify your weaknesses.

P.S.  If you cannot get enough free exp/elite commander xp together to make your blyska at least 10 points with Concealment Expert, I would advise against playing the DD until you are able to do so.  I say this because your detection is atrocious at that point and you are just a detriment to your team.  Once a DD is spotted...your guns will do the work.

*Edit -- Blyska IS NOT a torpedo boat.  It is a gun boat, bear that in mind.  Saw it after rereading your post and wanted to be sure you understood that.

image.png.0fc992718ad05bbbb54b004324d442f2.png

Edited by Kongo_Pride
  • Cool 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
688
[DRACS]
Members
3,340 posts

Excellent write up!

Honestly, I have real problems now with most tier VII DDs specifically because of one of the problems you bring up: the totally noncompetitive concealment. Used to be that high tier match ups were fairly rare because of the exorbitant repair costs, so tier 7 DDs were very often top tier. But now with high tier so cheap to play, I find tier 7 gets pulled up into tier 8 or 9 matches quite regularly. And most tier 7 DDs get outspotted by sometimes a full kilometer. This makes contesting caps as a tier 7 DD in a tier 8 match virtually impossible as the enemy DDs can just stay silent, keep you spotted, and let their cruiser and battleship friends in the background shell you into the dirt.

I ran into this recently while grinding up the KM DD line. While Maass is by no means a bad ship, I kept being pulled into higher tier matches and often died rapidly because an enemy Benson kept me spotted a good distance away. I felt like I always had to act as support to a higher tier DD on my team which I absolutely hated as I like to lead as a DD, not follow. After only a few matches I free XPed to the Z-23 and have no regrets.

Even many tier 7 DD premiums being introduced (or soon to be introduced ... in principle) are being given great concealment by Wargaming. Gallant has a 6km detection. T-61 and Z-39 are getting a 6.1 and 6.2 detection, and Cossack an amazing 5.8 detection, which makes these ships competitive in higher tier matches. Aigle's concealment is bad, but that's just because she's this very beefy DD with even beefier guns.

Honestly, I think many tier 7 DDs need a concealment buff as otherwise, they'll just sit and gather dust. I have Blys. I have Leningrad. I have Sims. I simply never play them anymore. Sims especially needs some love. While she is very maneuverable, her HP is low, her concealment is poor when uptiered, and her torpedoes are absolute garbage.

Edited by KaptainKaybe

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
405
[FAE]
Members
2,116 posts
2,507 battles
6 hours ago, Kongo_Pride said:

That is a really good question.  Especially given that you are playing a destroyer with a 6.8km detection.  Your average opponent will be playing a counter DD with .7km to .3km better concealment than your own.  I will be covering the build in a later post for all tier VII dds, but for you I will answer now.  

For modules;

Main Armaments Modification 1, Propulsion Modification 1, Aiming Systems Modification 1, and Steering Gears Modification 2

For Captain skills;

Priority Target, Preventative Maintenance, Adrenaline Rush, Last Stand, Survivability Expert, Basic Firing Training, Demolition Expert, and Concealment Expert.

One piece of advice I would give is to go to the edge.  Say you spawn on the A Cap side of the Land of Fire Map, don't go directly into the map.  Move at an angle, put yourself in a position to use the island for cover to limit cruiser fire, but at the same time return fire.  Let the battle develop and then take appropriate action.  Your torps are great for dealing with pushing cruisers.  Understand where radar ships are and try to avoid them...although I fully admit, I have gunned down my fair share of Atlantas, Flints, and Belfasts in this ship simply because your gun arcs are about the same at 10.5km and up...in fact yours are probably much better.  

If you try to push straight into the cap...you will reap exactly what you sew.  Impatient tactics are rewarded with swift deaths.  If you want further guidance send me a PM and I will be happy to div up with you and help you identify your weaknesses.

P.S.  If you cannot get enough free exp/elite commander xp together to make your blyska at least 10 points with Concealment Expert, I would advise against playing the DD until you are able to do so.  I say this because your detection is atrocious at that point and you are just a detriment to your team.  Once a DD is spotted...your guns will do the work.

*Edit -- Blyska IS NOT a torpedo boat.  It is a gun boat, bear that in mind.  Saw it after rereading your post and wanted to be sure you understood that.

image.png.0fc992718ad05bbbb54b004324d442f2.png

Thanks. The main question I have still is this one: how do you generally do this? "Move at an angle, put yourself in a position to use the island for cover to limit cruiser fire, but at the same time return fire."

I get irritated at behind rock firing because half the shots go into the rock, and I end games with like 10k dmg and a fire. And a headache. Also, seems like a poor use of speed. 

Basically, I'm having a lot of trouble being able to use my guns. 

But thanks for the side of the map tip. 

And also for the div offer. I'm currently on a IRL-based hiatus, but I'll be back in june or so. Can I play with you then if we remember?

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
405
[FAE]
Members
2,116 posts
2,507 battles

Funny enough, I LOVED mahan, esp being able to nose into a smoke/cap, dump fish on one side, and then dump the other set of fish. My literal avg dmg is 48k , more than 200% the normal 22k. But my win rate is still bad: 47%. 

There were of course cases where I'd not be able to do anything cuz I couldn't close against an enemy DD without losing most of my health to its teammates. I would readily use the mayan as a mainstay if it had better concealment. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1,302
[CUTE]
Members
5,152 posts
3,430 battles

Personally I feel that the GM should be the "standard" the tier should try for (an in it only "seems" powerful because the rest are kinda weakish). It's a shame the game has passed many of the Tier 7 Destroyers by to some extent. The stealth firing changes were particularly harsh on T7 gunboats because of their concealment conundrum which you laid out for us well. 

Well done KP.

I enjoy Sims a lot, I use the 5.5km torps because the 9.2 are sad, but man i gotta work it to do anything in that boat and i have to play with my nuts completely hanging out if i want to have a shot at a good game.

There is a reason DD are the least played surface ship and it's not because they are easy.

Edited by Canadatron

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Members
25 posts
2,516 battles

I think there is one thing you didn't mention about the Gadjah Mada that really needs to be mentioned.  It's gun arcs.  Those guns are so easy to stay on target in a chasing situation.  The second and third turrets rotate 360, so the guns can easily move to target on the other side of the ship while chasing.  That and the angle for all guns on target off center forward is only a few degrees.  It's my favorite thing about the ship.

  • Cool 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
123
[SOA]
Alpha Tester
553 posts
2,474 battles

I didn't find Mahan to be that bad, either. You just have to realize that you're not gonna be outspotting enemy DD and play accordingly. Wait until they're spotted/distracted by something else, and then pounce, or set an ambush behind an island that will shield you from their friends while you brutalize them with sheer DPM. It has fast reload and quicker turrets than most of its peers, plus a fairly fat HP pool that can keep it in the game after taking a surprising amount of punishment.

Having said that, tier 7 DD in general (aside from a couple of the premiums) are rather underwhelming to play compared to the 6s and especially the 8s.

--Helms

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
21
[-FH-]
Members
54 posts
705 battles
On 4/18/2018 at 11:30 PM, Kongo_Pride said:

Nobody likes to see a good ship nerfed, many would likely prefer to see a weak ship improved so that it can compete with other ships in its peer group.  The Mahan is at the bottom, both in Warships Today, total and last two weeks pulls, but also in my own experience as well.  For those that think the Mahan is up to standard of its peers, I would politely disagree for a trifecta of reasons that ultimately sink this ship.  First, the Mahan suffers from the worst concealment of any other Tier VII destroyer, which means alpha strike are often given to the opposing destroyer captain.  A Mahan can at best muster a 6.9km detection range, and too often many DDs will have hit them twice taking a 5k chunk from their health pool before they are even able to respond in combat.  And the response is usually short lived because they must smoke and slow down, taking even more damage in the process.  As a bully, this ship suffers from the fact that everyone can see it…and everyone can hurt it before it can hurt them.  Next, the second issue with the Mahan is the torpedoes.  They are fairly slow.  Even though she has the range, they rarely hit.  This also plays into her main battery.  The main battery is floaty and outside of 6 to 7km, she simply cannot hit or put out the damage necessary on a maneuvering target.  Thus her damage is much lower than that of her counterparts.  In Warships Today she is almost half the destroyer of the top tier, and even in my own player she is only two thirds capable.  It is clear for these reasons that the Mahan is weak, poor concealment, bad torps, and bad gun arcs.  Now, I love a bad ship and would love to see her improved.  Wargaming could easily fix this by giving her the same concealment as the Sims (6.6km at best) and following this up by improving Sims torpedo damage to that of say the Clemson at 11k?  Just my thoughts on how to improve this disaster.

Looks like someone listened.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
24
[RNDM]
Members
93 posts
2,591 battles

Mahan isn't that bad. I mean still not that good either, but I managed a 58% win ratio with her using a 8 point captain. Ambushes and just shredding other DDs in caps. My average exp earned with her is better than any of my other USN DDs until Gearing. I have actually been thinking about going back to her to see what I can do now that I am more experienced. Tier VII can also make a nice profit and its fun with less radar but still good preforming ships.

You are most certainly correct about Gadjah Mada. I feel like I can out gun just about anything in her.

For tier VII I think that the rule of thumb for DDs should be ambushes only. Stick to island cover to limit detection and even the playing field if your concealment is poor and to help sneak up on torping targets. Avoid open water and maybe go 3/4 speed so you can slow enough to pop smoke if you need to and gun something down from cover. Stay aware in smoke for torps and now is a good time to start familiarizing yourself with radar ships. Going 3/4 also allows for a poor man's "speed boost" to help throw off an enemy's aim and combined with an actual speed boost makes for a speed change that would break other ship's ankles if they had them(rudder maybe?). I'm probably not the most qualified to make this suggestion but it seems to work well enough for me.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8
[FAILD]
Members
16 posts
3,770 battles

First off I would like to thank you for such a well written article. As a DD main, I have found myself Captaining  almost all of these boats. I agree with your points and appreciate you taking the time to put your thoughts into words. 

Tier VII has been a great tier for me to play on a daily basis. The abundance of radar is not always present and is a nice relief from high Tier 8+ games. 

*DISCLAIMER* I don't mind playing with/around radar, it just makes life easier without. 

On 4/18/2018 at 11:30 PM, Kongo_Pride said:

The Gadjah Mada is clearly the best destroyer at Tier VII.  It is followed in this ranking by the Leningrad in second and the Blyskawica in third, but only by a hair’s margin.  The Maass takes up the fourth spot followed by the Minsk in fifth.  Beyond that, rounding out the bottom performers is the Akatsuki, Shiratsuyu, Sims, and finally the Mahan. 

I  must ask why the beloved Z- 39 is not mentioned. I am not complaining in any way, I just feel it is unfair to compare the Tier VII destroyers and to leave this gem unaccounted for. 

After gaining some much needed experience in higher tier matches, coming back tot he Z-39 was a dream.

With a high point captain in place, this finely tuned piece of German engineering is the perfect specimen to bully fellow DDs. Her guns hit like a truck, (loading speed leaves something to be desired)  her detectability is on par with her counterparts, torps are stealthy and fast (decent reload as well) and the smoke/hydro combo is perfect to contest any cap. 

Just my .02 cents, thank you again for your detailed analysis.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
21
[-FH-]
Members
54 posts
705 battles
13 hours ago, bartimus_69 said:

I must ask why the beloved Z- 39 is not mentioned. I am not complaining in any way, I just feel it is unfair to compare the Tier VII destroyers and to leave this gem unaccounted for. 

Article was written some time before Z39 appeared.  I semi necro'd this thread.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
262
Members
1,587 posts
4,345 battles

By way of introduction, here I am in my Tier VII DDs:

Mahan VII 36 - 26 - 10 - 35438 0,94 0,00 1572,22 72,22%
Simspremium.png VII 21 - 15 - 6 - 41500 1,05 0,95 1551,04 71,43%
Kiev (Old) VII 43 - 22 - 21 - 42497 0,84 0,26 1341,69 51,16%

Clearly, I cannot speak to the whole crop.  Further, I will say that I did not "like" Mahan or Sims, per se.  Sims was a Santa crate special and I played her and Mahan 21 games apiece with nearly identical stats prior to the OWSF / concealment nerf.  That hurt my damage and capability in Mahan somewhat, but at least it was pre-Oprah giving away radar days.  

Generally, @Canadatron is right on - I had to play every match balls out.  The torps are "meh" - but they do work sometimes to pitch in a little damage or shape maneuveer.  Really, it all comes down to popping speed boost, zooming into the cap and running down the DD that out spots you before they can get away...then maneuvering like mad to not die...which you can usually do and keep your guns on target.  It's all about that initial kill or intimidation...pushing that other DD out of the cap.  Much easier if you hold a cap and give you team time to maneuver.  That strategy translates OK-ish to Tashkent, in some cases.  I could never get the same match impact trying to do the gun boat thing in Kiev.  However, that means every match is "high stress" and that's not hugely fun, even when you're winning.

I sort of feel like nowadays the USN line hurts from having close range guns and so-so torps in a world where raw gun power from range and good torps seem to be what gets it done for DDs.  I'm looking forward to working through Fubuki to see if the IJN ships do prove a step up at Tier VII.  I don't know if it would be worth revisiting the VMF Minsk -- gun boating for me was so-so

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×