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As a player who likes to think of ways to become useful in battles and getting achievements for being a good player, I would like to think that the damage ribbons mechanic is limited in it's overall application. the problem with being a Destroyer in this game is really along these lines.

1. The game is regulated at 20 minutes which means you have to prioritize points or getting into position to do damage, or cap a point.

2. It takes roughly a minute or two  to contest and capture a point effectively, by this time you are reloading your torps due to the DD confrontation you  had at the objective point.

3. Since, this game has two major mechanics that determine  a matches ending. There is another problem. Regardless of the situation your main objective is the Capture Strategic Points on the map not to necessarily do damage. 

4. This plays  into the last 2 points I have made. Considering you have 20 minutes  in  each game to close this gap in points or ships destroyed. DD's have multiple things that can interfere with  said objective. However, have obstacles is not a problem in and of itself. The problem lies within the ability to be an effective asset to your team.

5. CV's perma-spotting, Radar, Sonar, and  not including if you are spotted by enemy destroyers. The small health pool and  the fact that  AP damage  pens destroyers unless most of the  ap shots hit  is  outright  annoying.    

 

      As a   DD player the issues are rather irritating to an extent, ribbons are based mostly on damage dealt and there is not a spotting ribbon in sight or any achievements for being a good destroyer. Torpedo reloads to me are not even at a reasonable state considering the game is only allowed to last 20 minutes. Why is there a game timer for this game? With the upcoming patch soon, 7.8 it seems you guys will be modelling a league of legends punishment system. This system which is automatic is foolishness. I understand punishing bad plays like torping behind allies and whatnot which is fine. This system will not be effective in the long run. Players will login to find out their account has been banned for some behavior unknown to them due to some reports. The system is automated, which means that if a clan or friends of that clan decide to mass report you God forbid, your screwed essentially. The system can be abused quite frankly rather easily. This is headed the same way LOL went and it is venomous to say the least in it's application.

     Arguably, what is frustrating, and I mean infuriating is that as a DD player you have to detect the other DD's on the enemy team to screen for your team. For the team, you are the eyes for Battleships and Cruisers. IF the destroyers die early in a game, it means the enemy team will most likely be blind to how your team placement is in the match. This is not to include of  course, the ability to capture points effectively unless of course your a low detection cruiser. Most players would not just go into a cap in a cruiser to sit bow in to be focused fired unless they had a clear opportunity or at least saw the opportunity  that went  entirely bad. Battleships can  push into capture points but considering they would sit bow in but that would leave them to be focused fired down , and low and behold HE'd to death.

    

My Main point: 

 

Losing half your health before the games really begins at 18 minutes is so annoyingly frustrating considering how destroyers like Z-52, Gearing, Grosovoi  eat full AP damage for what benefit. Grosovoi especially eats full ap to what benefit? It is beyond maddening to be dead not even 1/4 of the way into the match when your team really needs you to screen enemy DD's from the Battleships, but Damn you as a destroyer doing your damned job to capture a point earlier.You lost half your health for being touched on the buttcheek of your ship. Destroyers are punished for capping fine, but holy the amount of punishment is insta-deletion.

Fellow Destroyer Captains what are your thoughts on this? I see this issue time and time again. Seriously,   this  game  is only  built  around damage and destroyers are losing out on 75% of the reward base for performing their jobs correctly.

 

 

TLDR: Destroyers losing their health for merely capping or being breifly spotted and hit anywhere on  the stern  or anywhere on the ship eats full ap damage. The game is so damage focused the ribbons don't reward good DD play at all. It is really sad.

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4 minutes ago, BloodApostle said:

As a player who likes to think of ways to become useful in battles and getting achievements for being a good player, I would like to think that the damage ribbons mechanic is limited in it's overall application. the problem with being a Destroyer in this game is really along these lines.

1. The game is regulated at 20 minutes which means you have to prioritize points or getting into position to do damage, or cap a point.

2. It takes roughly a minute or two  to contest and capture a point effectively, by this time you are reloading your torps due to the DD confrontation you  had at the objective point.

3. Since, this game has two major mechanics that determine  a matches ending. There is another problem. Regardless of the situation your main objective is the Capture Strategic Points on the map not to necessarily do damage. 

4. This plays  into the last 2 points I have made. Considering you have 20 minutes  in  each game to close this gap in points or ships destroyed. DD's have multiple things that can interfere with  said objective. However, have obstacles is not a problem in and of itself. The problem lies within the ability to be an effective asset to your team.

5. CV's perma-spotting, Radar, Sonar, and  not including if you are spotted by enemy destroyers. The small health pool and  the fact that  AP damage  pens destroyers unless most of the  ap shots hit  is  outright  annoying.    

 

      As a   DD player the issues are rather irritating to an extent, ribbons are based mostly on damage dealt and there is not a spotting ribbon in sight or any achievements for being a good destroyer. Torpedo reloads to me are not even at a reasonable state considering the game is only allowed to last 20 minutes. Why is there a game timer for this game? With the upcoming patch soon, 7.8 it seems you guys will be modelling a league of legends punishment system. This system which is automatic is foolishness. I understand punishing bad plays like torping behind allies and whatnot which is fine. This system will not be effective in the long run. Players will login to find out their account has been banned for some behavior unknown to them due to some reports. The system is automated, which means that if a clan or friends of that clan decide to mass report you God forbid, your screwed essentially. The system can be abused quite frankly rather easily. This is headed the same way LOL went and it is venomous to say the least in it's application.

     Arguably, what is frustrating, and I mean infuriating is that as a DD player you have to detect the other DD's on the enemy team to screen for your team. For the team, you are the eyes for Battleships and Cruisers. IF the destroyers die early in a game, it means the enemy team will most likely be blind to how your team placement is in the match. This is not to include of  course, the ability to capture points effectively unless of course your a low detection cruiser. Most players would not just go into a cap in a cruiser to sit bow in to be focused fired unless they had a clear opportunity or at least saw the opportunity  that went  entirely bad. Battleships can  push into capture points but considering they would sit bow in but that would leave them to be focused fired down , and low and behold HE'd to death.

    

My Main point: 

 

Losing half your health before the games really begins at 18 minutes is so annoyingly frustrating considering how destroyers like Z-52, Gearing, Grosovoi  eat full AP damage for what benefit. Grosovoi especially eats full ap to what benefit? It is beyond maddening to be dead not even 1/4 of the way into the match when your team really needs you to screen enemy DD's from the Battleships, but Damn you as a destroyer doing your damned job to capture a point earlier.You lost half your health for being touched on the buttcheek of your ship. Destroyers are punished for capping fine, but holy the amount of punishment is insta-deletion.

Fellow Destroyer Captains what are your thoughts on this? I see this issue time and time again. Seriously,   this  game  is only  built  around damage and destroyers are losing out on 75% of the reward base for performing their jobs correctly.

 

 

TLDR: Destroyers losing their health for merely capping or being breifly spotted and hit anywhere on  the stern  or anywhere on the ship eats full ap damage. The game is so damage focused the ribbons don't reward good DD play at all. It is really sad.

I think you are highly downplaying the effect good DD play has on the course of a match. A good destroyer captain can hold an entire flank by themselves. A good destroyer captain knows when to commit, and when to abandon a cap. Your team appreciates your courage to take a cap, but does not appreciate zeal leading to untimely death. Bad DD play can swing a match hard, especially in the early game. The team with the most DDs remaining by the end of the match has a huge advantage, not only through capping, but spotting and the threat of torpedoes.

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2 minutes ago, Usedcarjock said:

I think you are highly downplaying the effect good DD play has on the course of a match. A good destroyer captain can hold an entire flank by themselves. A good destroyer captain knows when to commit, and when to abandon a cap. Your team appreciates your courage to take a cap, but does not appreciate zeal leading to untimely death. Bad DD play can swing a match hard, especially in the early game. The team with the most DDs remaining by the end of the match has a huge advantage, not only through capping, but spotting and the threat of torpedoes.

And yet a team that appreciates your good play gets the points - not the DD.

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5 minutes ago, BloodApostle said:

TLDR: Destroyers losing their health for merely capping or being breifly spotted and hit anywhere on  the stern  or anywhere on the ship eats full ap damage. The game is so damage focused the ribbons don't reward good DD play at all. It is really sad.

Playing DDs is risky business, walking on the knife's edge all the time and that's what makes it fun. You already get rewarded for spotting damage, capping, potential damage. Ribbons would be good to have for those, but you can check stats in post-battle screen.

AP pen mechanics on dds has been broken for a while, that I agree, but from my testing there's no significant difference of AP pen vs overpen between various lines of DDs. No point in singling out Z-52 or Groz, issues are the same for everyone.

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Just now, galspanic said:

And yet a team that appreciates your good play gets the points - not the DD.

Your team AND you get the win. I would trade slightly less xp for a win any day. 

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I am sorry but making less exp in general than other players that are good doesn't make much sense. Yes, playing a  destroyer is a high risk high reward ship, but not at the expense of scoring and making good plays. The game is based on damage almost entirely.

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You know what would be good for DDs? Rewards for time spent contesting cap circles. It's soul-crushing spending an entire epicenter match trying to prevent center cap from being taken only to end up at the bottom of the scoreboard if your team fails to back up your position.

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Being more rewarded for team play would be nice.

We've been talking about that for a long.

 

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You have to decide, do you want to win or do you want XP/credits?

You're correct that while most other ships do both at the same time, DDs do not.

All I care about is winning, so the current set up doesn't really bother me. But there are matches where I've definitely been the deciding factor, through spotting, capping, defending cap, and still ended up near or in last place. While I agree it's a sub-par design, I personally don't mind it.

  • Spotting enemy ships should give more XP. A lot more, especially if those ships are damaged. 
  • Spotting torps should give additional xp.
  • Dropping smoke should give xp based on the damage done by friendly ships that are in the smoke.
  • Firing torps near an enemy ship should give XP based on the damage done by your teammates within a certain amount of time.
  • Sitting in a cap to defend it from capture should give XP.

I could go on and on, but you get the idea.

 

At the end of the day, it's impossible to perfectly reward players based on their actual contribution to victory.  What we have now is certainly workable, if not ideal. At some point, we all have to set our own goals for how we want to play and how we want to improve and numbers on a screen tend to become less and less meaningful the more you play. So whatev...

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1 minute ago, Lensar said:

You have to decide, do you want to win or do you want XP/credits?

You're correct that while most other ships do both at the same time, DDs do not.

All I care about is winning, so the current set up doesn't really bother me. But there are matches where I've definitely been the deciding factor, through spotting, capping, defending cap, and still ended up near or in last place. While I agree it's a sub-par design, I personally don't mind it.

  • Spotting enemy ships should give more XP. A lot more, especially if those ships are damaged. 
  • Spotting torps should give additional xp.
  • Dropping smoke should give xp based on the damage done by friendly ships that are in the smoke.
  • Firing torps near an enemy ship should give XP based on the damage done by your teammates within a certain amount of time.
  • Sitting in a cap to defend it from capture should give XP.

I could go on and on, but you get the idea.

 

At the end of the day, it's impossible to perfectly reward players based on their actual contribution to victory.  What we have now is certainly workable, if not ideal. At some point, we all have to set our own goals for how we want to play and how we want to improve and numbers on a screen tend to become less and less meaningful the more you play. So whatev...

This is most definitely a great add, and I would support this idea  as well. It adds more depth to destroyer play, and more fun to the role. I mean who wouldn't want this.

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1-Spot for team until red dd are dead.

2-Cap something

3-Begin killing spree

 

 

 

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57 minutes ago, Usedcarjock said:

I think you are highly downplaying the effect good DD play has on the course of a match. A good destroyer captain can hold an entire flank by themselves. A good destroyer captain knows when to commit, and when to abandon a cap. Your team appreciates your courage to take a cap, but does not appreciate zeal leading to untimely death. Bad DD play can swing a match hard, especially in the early game. The team with the most DDs remaining by the end of the match has a huge advantage, not only through capping, but spotting and the threat of torpedoes.

Everything said here is absolutely 100% correct.

 

49 minutes ago, BloodApostle said:

I am sorry but making less exp in general than other players that are good doesn't make much sense. Yes, playing a  destroyer is a high risk high reward ship, but not at the expense of scoring and making good plays. The game is based on damage almost entirely.

As one who plays DDs very often, I can tell you that earning XP in a DD is not a problem.  No matter which DD I play (and I have a whole bunch of them) I consistently score in the top third in XP earned, with a significant portion of that being the top XP earner.  American DDs, Russian, German, Pan Asian, and even Japanese DDs which I have the most difficulty playing.  All tiers.

Why?  I play the boats to their individual strengths.  And it's not always dealing damage.

US DDs are excellent for contesting caps and, to a lesser extent, dealing damage.  Most of the XP I earn from American DDs is from successful capping, which is very lucrative, and dealing damage mostly to other DDs.  The absolute amount of damage dealt is usually fairly low since it's mostly inflicted upon destroyers, however the percentage of damage inflicted to individual DDs is usually quite high, thus I receive a proportional amount of XP for that.

Russian DDs are excellent for inflicting accumulated damage over time, not so much for capping, especially early in the match.  Not much to it here, frankly.  Just drive around kiting and spamming mostly HE from long range all day, AP for those opportune broadsides on the bigger targets, and watch the damage meter add up.

The key to all of this is surviving late enough into the match for this to matter.  Despite the legions of naysayers, it can be done.  My survival rates in DDs are routinely in the mid-to-high 50% to mid 60%.  Some are higher.

I'm still figuring out the German and Japanese lines, and only recently started the Pan Asian line, but have seen a good amount of success (and XP) in those as well, but it would be more appropriate if someone with more experience in those boats chimed in at this point.

 

TL:DR - Not all DDs strengths is strictly in dealing damage.  They do other things besides that earn them lots of XP and still help win the match.

Edited by Kuckoo

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56 minutes ago, Usedcarjock said:

I think you are highly downplaying the effect good DD play has on the course of a match. A good destroyer captain can hold an entire flank by themselves. A good destroyer captain knows when to commit, and when to abandon a cap. Your team appreciates your courage to take a cap, but does not appreciate zeal leading to untimely death. Bad DD play can swing a match hard, especially in the early game. The team with the most DDs remaining by the end of the match has a huge advantage, not only through capping, but spotting and the threat of torpedoes.

I am not downplaying the role by any means, however I am presenting the amount of challenges that DD's face in games which is objectively true. Yes, all the things you say here are true, but to what end on the fact you always seem to end up in most situations being instagibbed by a LOL montana, or other battleships for example.

Edited by BloodApostle

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It's true, DDs need to survive to end-game somehow as their influence is magnified the longer they survive into a battle. Many DD players can't seem to grasp that.

And as for uses, one of the things I like getting is thanks and a compliment after the battle for laying smoke for a cap push. Getting spotted by the DDs there briefly before I disappear, and watching them all bolt because I am in a Shimakaze about to lay down 15 torps. You can feel the BB and CA love on your side doing that.

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4 minutes ago, BloodApostle said:

I am not downplaying the role by any means, however I am presenting the amount of challenges that DD's face in games which is objectively true. Yes, all the things you say here are true, but to what end on the fact you always seem to end up in most situations being instagibbed by a LOL montana.

Other ships have challenges they have to face too. Cruisers are constantly under the threat of deletion by BBs, more so than DDs because of Citadels. Correctly played BBs are under constant threat of damage, and thus must use defensives effectively. Does it suck to get nailed by a BB? Sure it does, but it also sucks to get Dev struck by a BB in a cruiser, and torp walled in a BB by a DD you haven't even seen. Also, if you are being instagibbed by a Montana more than any other ship, you are out of position.

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1 hour ago, Flashtirade said:

You know what would be good for DDs? Rewards for time spent contesting cap circles. It's soul-crushing spending an entire epicenter match trying to prevent center cap from being taken only to end up at the bottom of the scoreboard if your team fails to back up your position.

One place on each side of the map where this can be done, and the Reds have to come pry you out of both...

...amazing how often I see teams fail to back this up just by killing Reds, nothing really more complicated than that; and games wind up being a loss.

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1 hour ago, BloodApostle said:

I am sorry but making less exp in general than other players that are good doesn't make much sense. Yes, playing a  destroyer is a high risk high reward ship, but not at the expense of scoring and making good plays. The game is based on damage almost entirely.

Except even as only occasionally a DD player, I find myself often near the top half of the team unless I get wrecked, and 90% of me getting wrecked is my mistakes. I've had low damage games where I got EXP because I was capping and spotting still get near if not the top spot. I had a match in I think it was my mid tier German DD or PA DD where I spawned in late, albeit it proved advantageous because it put me close enough to react to ships breaking through on the other side, and enough to despite a 7 minute or so late start get into the teams top 3 or 4. DD's get better rewards for scouting as well, with cruisers close behind. The other ship people want to scout, CV's, is actually the least rewarded for scouting. You mention about getting wrecked by BB Salvo's I only see that against angled/straight on DD's where the BB round easily overmatches the armour and because of the angle or being head on/retreating straight gives the round enough to go through and arm proper, or if I actually get a bunch of overpens. 

Another reply you mention the challenges DD's face. Cruisers face some of the same as DD's, except they have a citadel for easier deletion. They are just usually safer from most CV's. BB's have to contend with torp walls and OP as hell fire of which one of those they can control slightly. And occasionally, a higher tier CV that can make make their life hell because it can get through the AA and maybe abuse manual drop. And then you have CV's that AA is so overbuffed if your not higher tier, and sometimes even then, you lose tons of planes, that can leave you useless because effectively an ammo limit. Who take the most damage from fire and can't attack when set on fire - usually by a good DD that sneaks past. Fighter strafes that again, delete planes, and leave you useless. Every line has it's challenges, some are just natural, some need tweaks.

I'll admit that DD's have been screwed by Radar and stealth fire changes, and have said they need to fix it. But they are not that handicapped in earning.

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1 hour ago, Kuckoo said:

Your team appreciates your courage to take a cap, but does not appreciate zeal leading to untimely death. Bad DD play can swing a match hard, especially in the early game. The team with the most DDs remaining by the end of the match has a huge advantage, not only through capping, but spotting and the threat of torpedoes.

Players want DDs to cap, they also want radar to kill them they when they try.

Players want DDs at the end to help them win, but they also scream any time a nerf to radar or a buff to DDs is mentioned.

 

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2 hours ago, Usedcarjock said:

Your team AND you get the win. I would trade slightly less xp for a win any day. 

Oh, of course.  I will always play to the win and not to scoring points since winning gives you the biggest boost in XP.  But, if you have a back row BB hiding behind a hill the whole game scoring fires on enemy ships because I'm keeping the vision game under control, that BB will walk away with a significantly higher score than me.  The only way you can really get rewarded in a DD is by playing it like a CA - if you play it like a good DD then you don't get XP.

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5 minutes ago, Slimeball91 said:

Players want DDs to cap, they also want radar to kill them they when they try.

Players want DDs at the end to help them win, but they also scream any time a nerf to radar or a buff to DDs is mentioned.

 

Indeed nothing wipes out not so skilled DD players faster at the start of battle than radar, but then the team screams for there dds dying so fast.

 

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22 minutes ago, galspanic said:

Oh, of course.  I will always play to the win and not to scoring points since winning gives you the biggest boost in XP.  But, if you have a back row BB hiding behind a hill the whole game scoring fires on enemy ships because I'm keeping the vision game under control, that BB will walk away with a significantly higher score than me.  The only way you can really get rewarded in a DD is by playing it like a CA - if you play it like a good DD then you don't get XP.

I'm getting tired at being at the front taking all the risk and getting less reward i want to win and get paid just like the other classes.

Over the last few days.

Yeah bring it

Clipboarder.2018.04.19-004.png

 

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Carried the living daylights out of this one and i killed all there dds. Only got 2 Karma for that so i have totally stopped worrying about it.

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Edited by Final8ty

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To the victors go the spoils, or something like that.

Basically, to consistently score well with a DD you need to do one simple (yet very hard) thing: Stay alive.

Most DD players who have trouble try to do way way too much. My first T8 DD was the Benson and I'd say, hell... maybe my first 250 matches in it I dove into my 'assigned' cap like a madman, as if my honor and the honor of all my ancestors would be besmirched if the enemy somehow captured that point. Regardless of the situation, I would die before I let them have it.

Playing a DD is all about risk management. You should never take more risk than is necessary to achieve your goal, be it to ensure your team wins the match, or to stay alive and obtain a reasonable score. Rather than reiterate my whole risk management theory of DDmanship, I'll just share a previous post I made, only without including any of the controversial "r-word" discussion.

 

Playing a concealment DD is all about risk management. You could sail on the edge of the map all match and be almost entirely safe. You could also yolo into a cap or at the enemy in the faint hopes of somehow capping/stopcapping or taking out an enemy ship. Concealment DDs, generally, allow you to set your own level of difficulty based on your desired level of reward. Playing a DD at any point in a match is like playing roulette in a casino. If you just need to double your money, you can place your bet on red or black. If you needed to triple your money, you could bet on a dozen or a split. Or if you were going for broke (pun intended) you could play a single number.

 

At the start of a match, DDs have the role of capping or contesting caps, as well as spotting/screening/smoking for teammates. A DD doesn't have to fill this role. They could go yolo solo off and do whatever they want. But for those interested doing their best to help their team win a match, this is what DDs are expected to do.

 

The secret sauce of being effective or ineffective as a DD player is how you manage your interactions with other DDs. Do you shoot them? Do you torp at them? Do you chase them? Do you turn and run? Do you smoke and fire? Do you smoke and torp? Do you smoke and flee? I'm playing a Hatsu this ranked season, and while I hate to give away my secrets, 90% of what I do in DD vs DD encounters is hold fire, remain detected long enough to get the enemy DD to fire at me, then turn and move out of detection range so that I'm concealed while he has to eat 20 seconds of fire from everyone else on my team.

US_Navy_Destroyer_Squadron_20_steams_thr

Every situation is different, however. Sometimes, my best chance is to open fire on the enemy DD to do some damage, usually dropping torps in what I extrapolate to be his likely path of pursuit or escape. Often, I'll fire at the DD but launch torps at the enemy BBs who (hopefully) have a much less unpredictable path. Other times, if I know a friendly teammate has the enemy spotted, I might even drop smoke and sit in it and fire, although usually I try to save my smoke, since it worth much more if used on my teammates.

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There is nothing like a well executed assassination of a capital ship. Unless it's holding a flank by yourself buying time for the team. Quite honestly the economy is pretty robust, the game play is engaging, I wish other games were as well designed (except for CVs)

Yup. DD life is pretty good. 

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19 minutes ago, Lensar said:

To the victors go the spoils, or something like that.

Basically, to consistently score well with a DD you need to do one simple (yet very hard) thing: Stay alive.

Most DD players who have trouble try to do way way too much. My first T8 DD was the Benson and I'd say, hell... maybe my first 250 matches in it I dove into my 'assigned' cap like a madman, as if my honor and the honor of all my ancestors would be besmirched if the enemy somehow captured that point. Regardless of the situation, I would die before I let them have it.

Playing a DD is all about risk management. You should never take more risk than is necessary to achieve your goal, be it to ensure your team wins the match, or to stay alive and obtain a reasonable score. Rather than reiterate my whole risk management theory of DDmanship, I'll just share a previous post I made, only without including any of the controversial "r-word" discussion.

 

But that has to be balanced with the rest of your teammates telling you to "get in the cap get in the cap"

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1 hour ago, Final8ty said:

Indeed nothing wipes out not so skilled DD players faster at the start of battle than radar, but then the team screams for there dds dying so fast.

 

Here is the point, I am making. Yes, radar should light up players who are bad at evaluating the threats in  the game. I welcome any challenge that is in this game. Not full ap damage to DD's however, since WG themselves said that the mechanic is in the  game for a reason. As a DD player you rise to the challenge, and don't complain about radar and other challenges, however once again. You are going to be detected by some method entering a cap at the beginning of the game. Unfortunately, mitigating damage as a DD is literally impossible. You are going to eat damage from AP or HE, in my opinion why would a battleship change ammo types to deal with a destroyer when he gets the same benefits of using HE or better using AP against DD's. The very mechanic that is in the game seems to have no effect on dds mostly when you are hit IE for being detected for merely 5 seconds. It is a legit issue. I have thought numerous ways to avoid losing all my health just for one measly cap or dying there of. I don't just rush into cap I assess the radar ships on grid what dds i am against and CAs to check for radar distances and other factors before I go into a cap. Considering that fact it is almost impossible to prepare for every single threat in event you are a experienced expert DD player that makes 210k damage games or caps like mad. Even in my best dds, eating nearly 10k worth of damage for being spotted for mere seconds die to AP is sad as it is. It is not rewarding to enter a cap to be detected to know you entering cap means the only thing you can do is try to mitigate the amount of damage you take for being in cap. It is way to punishing.

Oh my, let us not forget the lone ranger radar CA that pushes into B cap and crushing dd's in its wake, or the Missouri that pushes A (literally) cap only to kill you with AP in smoke. Those are just the random occurrences, and a dd player has to evaluate and pre-deposition that threat as well.

Edited by BloodApostle

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