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Belthorian

A change to the Radar mechanic

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 I think the overabundance of radar has upset the balance in the game. What I suggest is that only the Ship with the equipped radar can see the targets it illuminates with Radar. That way a Destroyer getting spotted by Radar would not be an automatic death sentence. To compensate I would give the Cruisers a slightly longer radar time and range of detection. I would also make it standard equipment on cruisers and put them back in the business of hunting destroyers.

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I would say this is OK but It's not gonna happen

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As a DD main would wholeheartedly want this, but as a CA main, I would say "Heck no!", and both for the same reason...

With the exception of a DM with the radar module (and maybe one or two others) ,radar doesn't last long enough for a single CA to take down a full HP DD, especially if the DD captain is at least semi-competent.

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11 minutes ago, sbcptnitro said:

With the exception of a DM with the radar module (and maybe one or two others) ,radar doesn't last long enough for a single CA to take down a full HP DD, especially if the DD captain is at least semi-competent.

This would also largely nullify the advantage Radar gives Missouri...If I'm really lucky and RNGesus is with me, I can take 7-8k off a DD in one AP salvo at most. And I'm only going to get a second salvo in on a radar use if my guns are already aligned and I fire the first salvo as soon as I trigger radar. Radar on Missouri is even more a teamplay thing than it is on cruisers, as I rely on fire from my teammates to help me kill what my radar spots. 

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Radar is fine. Learn to camp 12+km out and you're fine. Game play sucks but you're alive at the end. Or, play Russian DD. 

 

To note: Saying we should extend range/uptime makes me think the OP has not had the pleasure of being in a USN/KM DD against a Radar Mod Des Moines. 

Edited by Canadatron

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Reposting, since there's apparently two of these threads: 

 

 

30 minutes ago, Lensar said:

Simple and easy fix for radar: (not that WG wants to fix it and not that DD numbers justify the need for a fix)

Enemy ships within radar range:

- Are no longer effected by visibility-effecting conditions (smoke, monsoon)

- Have their detectability increased to gun bloom range.

Bam. Line of sight radar without any additional coding, just modification of existing parameters. That'll be $175 in design consultation fees, thx.

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57 minutes ago, Lensar said:

Reposting, since there's apparently two of these threads: 

 

 

I clicked submit and the browser crashed and somehow it created two threads

 

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2 hours ago, Belthorian said:

 I think the overabundance of radar has upset the balance in the game. What I suggest is that only the Ship with the equipped radar can see the targets it illuminates with Radar. That way a Destroyer getting spotted by Radar would not be an automatic death sentence. To compensate I would give the Cruisers a slightly longer radar time and range of detection. I would also make it standard equipment on cruisers and put them back in the business of hunting destroyers.

 

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A while ago made the suggestion to change radar to

 

1. flat % buff to spotting distance, in inactive state

2. have an active state, where the user can lock onto a target and illuminate it for the duration of the radar; while active, user is also illuminated.

3. firing on radar locked target during activation will grant the attacker % buff to dispersion

A mod said suggestion will get pass onto the devs.

 

The mentioned change will change radar from a 1 button no skill involved giant area denial, to a more strategic usage and encourages team play at the same time.

Edited by NeutralState

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Problem here, aside from not having enough DPM, is that radar ships in this game are generally very squishy and typically have to hide behind an island next to whatever cap they are radaring.

Your suggestion would be asking for that ship to push into a wide open cap and get absolutely murdered by every ship on the enemy team.

Unless of course you'd like to significantly buff Des Moines' armor so it can bounce 16 inch shells ...

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4 hours ago, Belthorian said:

 I think the overabundance of radar has upset the balance in the game. What I suggest is that only the Ship with the equipped radar can see the targets it illuminates with Radar.

Just stop using smoke :) Play IJN dds with TRB. Smoke nowadays at top tiers is more of a liability than a useful tool. Also your proposal would only make sense if we remove all spotting information from other ships so you can only shoot at what you can see. Otherwise it makes no sense that radar information is treated differently from normal spotting.

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1 hour ago, NeutralState said:

A while ago made the suggestion to change radar to

 

1. flat % buff to spotting distance, in inactive state

2. have an active state, where the user can lock onto a target and illuminate it for the duration of the radar; while active, user is also illuminated.

3. firing on radar locked target during activation will grant the attacker % buff to dispersion

A mod said suggestion will get pass onto the devs.

 

The mentioned change will change radar from a 1 button no skill involved giant area denial, to a more strategic usage and encourages team play at the same time.

I haven't gotten a lot of sleep in the last few days so I may not be understanding here but it seems like two nice buffs and a small nerf?? 

1. If I understand this correctly the radar cruiser gets a flat % boost in detecting enemy ships in inactive mode (read, all the time).  If that's right then that's a nice buff. 

2. Radar as we know it now with the addition of the radar cruiser gets lit too.  Small nerf.  Now, the radar cruiser is either in a position to fire, and firing on the radar'ed ship(s) so its detected, or tucked up behind an island, not detected but safe from any incoming fire.  The only change would be the radar cruiser behind the island will be now detected, but still safe. 

3. Just a buff to dispersion for the radar cruiser.

Unless I've got this wrong this a pretty good buff to radar as we know it now. 

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Just now, geser98 said:

Otherwise it makes no sense that radar information is treated differently from normal spotting.

Actually, radar breaks the rules in several ways.  One, it doesn't follow the rules for spotting (LoS).  Second, radar is the only consumable were the range and area of effect are not equal.  Hydro, smoke, AA defensive fire only work when inside their range.  The ships out in front of you don't benefit from your hydro when out of its range, same with smoke and DF.  Radar has its range but its area of effect is unlimited because everyone on your team sees the detected ship(s).  If friendly ships had to be inside the radar's range to see the radar'ed ships then it would follow the established rules for consumables.

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7 minutes ago, Slimeball91 said:

Hydro, smoke, AA defensive fire only work when inside their range.

How come? Everyone can see a ship lit up by hydro, just as with radar. And I think everyone can see torps spotted by hydro just the same.

Edited by geser98

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An idea mentioned in another thread was to have radar with a cooldown in the beginning of the match.  I'd suggest keeping radar as it is now with the exception of a four minute cooldown in the beginning of the match, after your first use the cooldown is buffed to what it is now.  The idea is to allow DDs to spot and play the objectives in the opening of the match to get the game off to fast start.  With the time crunch DDs will have to act fast to help establish position for their team early before they will have to fall back as radar comes off cooldown.  The teams that are willing to push fast will have the advantage.  The idea is to help reduce stagnate play.   

Just now, geser98 said:

How come? Everyone can see a ship lit up by hydro, just as with radar.

You are right hydro works the same when used as a poor mans radar.  I didn't want to muddy the waters by adding in hydro.  I think hydro should be changed to torp detection only.

Just now, geser98 said:

And I think everyone can see torps spotted by hydro just the same.

Again you are right.  However, your teammates out in front of your hydro are out of luck.  The teammates that aren't in the path of the torps don't benefit from seeing the torps.  The ones behind you benefit form prema spotting but they would get that advantage even if you didn't pop hydro.      

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4 hours ago, sbcptnitro said:

As a DD main would wholeheartedly want this, but as a CA main, I would say "Heck no!", and both for the same reason...

With the exception of a DM with the radar module (and maybe one or two others) ,radar doesn't last long enough for a single CA to take down a full HP DD, especially if the DD captain is at least semi-competent.

Why does a cruiser need to be able to solo kill a DD within the duration of one radar?

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2 minutes ago, Rouxi said:

Why does a cruiser need to be able to solo kill a DD within the duration of one radar?

Because it's her job.

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Just now, geser98 said:

Because it's her job.

You're missing the question. Why within one radar?

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16 minutes ago, Rouxi said:

You're missing the question. Why within one radar?

No reason. 

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As a DD player I would love this. As a BB or CA/CL player I would hate it. Honest unbiased opinion is it would make DD's overpowered if there weren't any changes. Think about it. When do you get radar? When do DD's get access to the concealment mod? If you have one radar on your team and it does not kill the DD within that 1 radar, the DD will essentially be perma stealth. Radar, DD's,  CV's, firing in the open, and bad play are the only way that DD's can be spotted. Imagine a game with a Harekaze if this was the case. Stay away from the red DD and you're free to torp the entire match without any fear. 

Again, I would love this when playing my DD's because all I have to do is stay more than 5.4km away. Chances of a radar cruiser catching me off guard not close to the edge of their radar range is next to none and even if they do, just dodge a set of shells every few seconds until you're out of range. I just see too many cons to this.

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5 hours ago, Belthorian said:

 I think the overabundance of radar has upset the balance in the game. What I suggest is that only the Ship with the equipped radar can see the targets it illuminates with Radar. That way a Destroyer getting spotted by Radar would not be an automatic death sentence. To compensate I would give the Cruisers a slightly longer radar time and range of detection. I would also make it standard equipment on cruisers and put them back in the business of hunting destroyers.

I'm sure when playing DDs this would be great, but not when playing anything else.  Hell no.  Besides, the game engine seems to have some inherent "Borg Spotting" mechanic that can't be commented out.  If someone spots something, everyone within their individual spotting ranges can see it too, regardless of method or LoS.

Given how short radar durations are, radar is not the automatic death sentence for DDs you say it is (something I initially feared it was going to be).  A painful inconvenience, yes, but nothing that can't be mitigated.  I run into radar all the time in mid-high tier DD matches.  Most of the time I survive it, sometimes more than once, and live long enough to wreak havoc late in the match in return.

There has to be some consequence for DD players to fail to look at the pre-match rosters and plan a strategy based on what they see.  Lots of radar ships?  Assume that you're going to get radared, and play cautiously at first.  Have an exit strategy beforehand.  Leave yourself some room to turn and run if you get beamed.  Don't overextend and over-commit in the cap at the start of matches. You can always come back to try capping again later.   Pay attention to what's developing, run if you have to, and don't wait until it's too late to do so.  I could go on...

Every single match you see at least one DD who overextends too soon, or over-commits himself in the cap, or just sits blind and oblivious in smoke while in the cap, and gets blown back to port.

The "bad things keep happening to me in the game, so the game needs to change because of it" trope gets tiresome...

 

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15 hours ago, Belthorian said:

I clicked submit and the browser crashed and somehow it created two threads

 

 

You should then have posted in one of them to have a moderator remove the duplicate and direct people to the thread you want to preserve. Keeping two threads about the same topic makes it seem that you are spamming the boards, and I can tell you I immediately disregarded anything you posted as soon as I saw that.

 

Best thing is to edit your first post to note it is accidental so people and mods see it as soon as possible, and you aren't taken as a troll.

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17 hours ago, Belthorian said:

 I think the overabundance of radar has upset the balance in the game. What I suggest is that only the Ship with the equipped radar can see the targets it illuminates with Radar. That way a Destroyer getting spotted by Radar would not be an automatic death sentence. To compensate I would give the Cruisers a slightly longer radar time and range of detection. I would also make it standard equipment on cruisers and put them back in the business of hunting destroyers.

The first and foremost fix that radar requires is making it adhere to the rules of LoS.  No... it is not a game engine limitation. I know someone is going to appeal to authority with that nonsensical dribble Wargaming claims.

When you fire at an island. The shells strike the island, they do not pass through it.
When you launch torpedoes at an island. The torps strike the island, they do not pass through it.
etc etc etc

Radar breaking LoS is the largest reason why it offers zero counter play and makes it the ONLY hard counter in the game. It also makes it skill void.

 

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