Jump to content
You need to play a total of 5 battles to post in this section.
Belthorian

Altering the HE Shell Mechanics

79 comments in this topic

Recommended Posts

1,432
[OPGS]
Beta Testers
3,207 posts
5,662 battles

 I think HE shell mechanics should be altered to account for armor angling. The fact that AP shells have to pass through this check and HE shells get to ignore armor angling totally seems ridiculous to me. Making HE shells behave just lie AP shells would emphasize skill instead of what we have with a large percentage of the player base, which is spam HE until you die. HE rounds should have to pass the penetration roll and the angle roll before doing any damage and setting fires. He shells failing to pass the penetration and angle check would still have the ability to reduce AA like they do now. The way it exists in the game currently removes any skill from the shooter....jsut aim and fire. It also removes any skill from the defender because properly angling your ship is a skill needed to survive against AP but HE gets to ignore this is absurd.

  • Bad 5

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3,291
[HINON]
Members
8,832 posts

This would also make many ships unable to damage certain ships aside from fires and would create an imbalance.

  • Cool 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1,302
[PVE]
[PVE]
Members
4,112 posts
8,676 battles
Just now, RipNuN2 said:

This would also make many ships unable to damage certain ships aside from fires and would create an imbalance.

Yeah, my cruisers for one.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
22,453
[HINON]
Supertester
18,916 posts
12,446 battles
7 minutes ago, RipNuN2 said:

This would also make many ships unable to damage certain ships aside from fires and would create an imbalance.

Not only that, but the clue to how HE shells work is in the name, High Explosive. IE, big explosions, with shock waves traveling faster than sound. Shock waves that ignore direction and go out in a 360 degree bubble. Having explosions suddenly be less effective because the shell hit a plate at an angle is illogical, the explosion doesn't care about armor angling, it propagates evenly and attacks the thinnest part of the armor it touches.

  • Cool 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1,432
[OPGS]
Beta Testers
3,207 posts
5,662 battles
6 minutes ago, Chaos_EN2 said:

Yeah, my cruisers for one.

Not really, aiming for the superstructure would still lead to damage. AP in cruisers still deals damage if aimed at the superstructure.  What it would also do by reducing a cruiser players ability to farm damage from a battleship is get them to focus more on what their job is supposed to be in game, counter DD's.

  • Bad 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
159
[AWP]
Members
780 posts
2,950 battles

This is also something that somewhat follows real mechanics. Explosives will act in all directions which means part will be at a true perpendicular angle to the armor while a simple projectile acts in only the direction it impacts. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1,023
[OPG]
Members
3,888 posts
5,476 battles
10 minutes ago, Belthorian said:

The way it exists in the game currently removes any skill from the shooter....jsut aim and fire. It also removes any skill from the defender because properly angling your ship is a skill needed to survive against AP but HE gets to ignore this is absurd.

But wouldn't your suggestion remove all skill from the defending ship as angling could de-facto make a ship invulnerable to incoming fire, thereby removing any necessity for proper positioning?  

HE is a necessary evil, if you view it as such, as the game needs a means to counter angled ships. With out one the game would stagnate into bow on camp fests, even worse than what we get now, and it would be a massive nerf to HE reliant ships, such as cruisers.  Ship survivability would skyrocket and games would draw on far longer.  This would also be a massive buff to BBs....and I don't really think that's something this game needs at the moment.  

  • Cool 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1,432
[OPGS]
Beta Testers
3,207 posts
5,662 battles
Just now, Lert said:

Not only that, but the clue to how HE shells work is in the name, High Explosive. IE, big explosions, with shock waves traveling faster than sound. Shock waves that ignore direction and go out in a 360 degree bubble. Having explosions suddenly be less effective because the shell hit a plate at an angle is illogical, the explosion doesn't care about armor angling, it propagates evenly and attacks the thinnest part of the armor it touches.

You would be incorrect Lert, an HE round that explodes outside of an armor plate, the destructive force would be channeled away without causing very much damage if any.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1,302
[PVE]
[PVE]
Members
4,112 posts
8,676 battles
1 minute ago, Belthorian said:

Not really, aiming for the superstructure would still lead to damage. AP in cruisers still deals damage if aimed at the superstructure.  What it would also do by reducing a cruiser players ability to farm damage from a battleship is get them to focus more on what their job is supposed to be in game, counter DD's.

Yes I know, I used to play RN Cruisers. I know how it works.

I also play BBs, and I still think this would be a bad idea.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
22,453
[HINON]
Supertester
18,916 posts
12,446 battles
3 minutes ago, Belthorian said:

You would be incorrect Lert, an HE round that explodes outside of an armor plate, the destructive force would be channeled away without causing very much damage if any.  

If there's a shockwave originating on the outside of a plate of steel it does not magically avoid the plate with sparkles and rainbows; it acts on plate as well. You set off a stick of TNT one inch from your car door and see how your car door handles it. The vast majority of the energy will go into open space, yes, but there's still a force acting on the steel plate, and that force doesn't give a flying crap about angles.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Members
631 posts
4,139 battles
2 minutes ago, Belthorian said:

You would be incorrect Lert, an HE round that explodes outside of an armor plate, the destructive force would be channeled away without causing very much damage if any.  

Doesn't this already work that way? You can get a hit with an HE round that doesn't penetrate the plate, but the explosion will still damage modules (AA mounts, secondaries, etc). 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1,432
[OPGS]
Beta Testers
3,207 posts
5,662 battles
2 minutes ago, yashma said:

But wouldn't your suggestion remove all skill from the defending ship as angling could de-facto make a ship invulnerable to incoming fire, thereby removing any necessity for proper positioning?  

HE is a necessary evil, if you view it as such, as the game needs a means to counter angled ships. With out one the game would stagnate into bow on camp fests, even worse than what we get now, and it would be a massive nerf to HE reliant ships, such as cruisers.  Ship survivability would skyrocket and games would draw on far longer.  This would also be a massive buff to BBs....and I don't really think that's something this game needs at the moment.  

Not really, no matter what your angle, the superstructure is still going to be vulnerable. What this would eliminate is firing HE into the bow of a Battleships, not having to roll an angle check and setting it on fire because of of....reasons.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1,432
[OPGS]
Beta Testers
3,207 posts
5,662 battles
Just now, Lert said:

If there's a shockwave originating on the outside of a plate of steel it does not magically avoid the plate with sparkles and rainbows; it hits the armor plate. You set off a stick of TNT one inch from your car door and see how your car door handles it. The vast majority of the energy will go into open space, yes, but there's still a force acting on the steel plate, and that force doesn't give a flying crap about angles.

You are correct to a point, my car door is paper thin aluminum. A WW2 ships hull is steel....a big difference. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
22,453
[HINON]
Supertester
18,916 posts
12,446 battles
1 minute ago, Belthorian said:

You are correct to a point, my car door is paper thin aluminum. A WW2 ships hull is steel....a big difference. 

The shock wave also doesn't give a flying crap what the plate is made from, it'll act out a force upon it regardless. That's just basic physics. What the plate is made of and how much of it is there helps the plate dissipate and handle the shock wave, but the shock wave itself doesn't care either way, it still works on the plate.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1,352
[SYN]
Members
4,525 posts
11,433 battles
28 minutes ago, Belthorian said:

 I think HE shell mechanics should be altered to account for armor angling. The fact that AP shells have to pass through this check and HE shells get to ignore armor angling totally seems ridiculous to me. Making HE shells behave just lie AP shells would emphasize skill instead of what we have with a large percentage of the player base, which is spam HE until you die. HE rounds should have to pass the penetration roll and the angle roll before doing any damage and setting fires. He shells failing to pass the penetration and angle check would still have the ability to reduce AA like they do now. The way it exists in the game currently removes any skill from the shooter....jsut aim and fire. It also removes any skill from the defender because properly angling your ship is a skill needed to survive against AP but HE gets to ignore this is absurd.

Considering the number of no-damage HE hits one regularly sees, I have to disagree.

BBs can repair most damage received from HE and fires.  Players can learn to better manage their consumables, (use Repair at the right time instead of DC when on fire, use DC only when Repair is on cooldown and/or only when you absolutely need it, situation permitting, etc).  I'm bad at battleships but even I understand how that works.

If you're continuing to see yourself being pummeled out of the match by endless streams of HE from multiple ships, either:

  • You positioned yourself poorly, put yourself into firing range of multiple ships too soon, and are now paying the price for it, or
  • The match has gone to the dogs for your team and things were just going to end up like that for you anyway, regardless of how well you play

I've been burned out of matches, too, but never felt that HE should be nerfed because of it.  There are awful things that battleships do to cruisers that cruisers can never do to a battleship.  Has to be some give-and-take.

Edited by Kuckoo

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
159
[AWP]
Members
780 posts
2,950 battles
2 minutes ago, Belthorian said:

You would be incorrect Lert, an HE round that explodes outside of an armor plate, the destructive force would be channeled away without causing very much damage if any.  

Want a more technical definition? HE and AP both contain explosive but the AP must penetrate in order for the explosive to matter. HE contains much more explosive and the energy is immediately exerted on impact. An explosive is like an expanding sphere of pressure. This pressure (energy) is exerted equally in every direction from its center. This means as the sphere expands, it will impact the armor at every angle from perpendicular until the pressure equalizes. AP is a projectile which is more straightforward physics. Transmittance and reflection.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1,432
[OPGS]
Beta Testers
3,207 posts
5,662 battles
1 minute ago, Kuckoo said:

Considering the number of no-damage HE hits one regularly sees, I have to disagree.

BBs can repair most damage received from HE and fires.  Players can learn to better manage their consumables, (use Repair at the right time instead of DC when on fire, use DC only when Repair is on cooldown and only when you absolutely need it, situation permitting, etc).  I'm bad at battleships but even I understand how that works.

If you're continuing to see yourself being pummeled out of the match by endless streams of HE from multiple ships, either:

  • You positioned yourself poorly, put yourself into firing range of multiple ships too soon, and are now paying the price for it, or
  • The match has gone to the dogs for your team and things were just going to end up like that for you anyway, regardless of how well you play

I've been burned out of matches, too, but never felt that HE should be nerfed because of it.  There are awful things that battleships do to cruisers that cruisers can never do to a battleship.  Has to be some give-and-take.

While this is not a simulation, it is based on historical naval combat. Battleships were the Death Stars of their day the respect and fear these machine garnered caused nations to nearly go bankrupt building them. Destroyers are positioned right in the game, their torpedoes were a huge threat to a Battleship. However, cruisers were not really a threat to Battleships and would avoid them whenever possible. With the HE mechanic, the way it is most cruisers ignore the rock/paper/scissors mechanic they were supposed to fill in the game, as counters to destroyers. Instead, almost every cruiser player spends the game trying to farm damage off battleships and ignores the job they were supposed to have...hunt and kill DD's.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1,432
[OPGS]
Beta Testers
3,207 posts
5,662 battles
9 minutes ago, Lert said:

The shockwave also doesn't give a flying crap what the plate is made from, it'll act out a force upon it regardless. That's just basic physics.

Correct however once that shockwave encounters resistance, it's energy will follow the path of least resistance and the vast majority of the explosion will dissipate. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
30
[TSPC]
Members
173 posts
6,271 battles

Honestly, as long as you aren't overextended and eating torps, HE spam won't really kill you - especially when certain bbs, especially at high tiers, have deck armor that can negate the harder to heal HE pen dmg

Also, rock paper scissors game format is unfun to play especially given the frequency of mm imbalances - frankly rps doesn't really exist anymore anyways

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
22,453
[HINON]
Supertester
18,916 posts
12,446 battles
2 minutes ago, Belthorian said:

it's energy will follow the path of least resistance and the vast majority of the explosion will dissipate. 

That still leaves energy acting on the plate. And that energy doesn't give one iota about angles. In fact, it will - as you say - take the path of least existence and work on the shortest distance through the plate, I.E. perpendicular.

I don't know how much more often I have to repeat this before you accept it. From the sounds of it, you want all HE shells to do 0 damage because "the vast majority of the energy will dissipate when it encounters armor plate" ....

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
30
[TSPC]
Members
173 posts
6,271 battles
2 minutes ago, Belthorian said:

Correct however once that shockwave encounters resistance, it's energy will follow the path of least resistance and the vast majority of the explosion will dissipate. 

Also the initial force from such a shockwave - especially at the point of impact - will be quite high and will likely do significant damage even if much of it dissipates 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
243
[WOLF5]
Members
1,140 posts
8,303 battles
31 minutes ago, Belthorian said:

 The way it exists in the game currently removes any skill from the shooter....jsut aim and fire. It also removes any skill from the defender because properly angling your ship is a skill needed to survive against AP but HE gets to ignore this is absurd.

This is an old debate, but the specific argument I cite has always driven me crazy.  Your definition of skill is too narrow.  First, because if you are shooting low caliber HE, you do need to hit certain parts of the ship to do any alpha damage at all - larger-caliber guns or IFHE mitigate this, but the problem doesn't go away entirely.  Second, because if you are trying to be effective in killing ships with fire, you need to hit different areas of the ship - what makes Fire Prevention so effective is the number of players who will simply target center-of-mass even when it is already burning.  So overall the aiming skill necessary isn't appreciably less than a battleship shooting AP.  Third, because a well-played CA has to be a lot more dynamic in ammo selection (CLs and DDs do too, albeit perhaps to lesser extents) than your average AP-only non-RN BB player (or HE-only RN BB player).  And fourth, because killing a battleship with HE is a long, slow process, a bit like stabbing a bear with a pocket knife - you may kill it eventually, but you are guaranteed to anger it in the meantime.  There is skill in staying alive while you are trying to do it.

And there is skill in countering HE in a battleship as well: positioning, angling (yes, you can be set on fire from any angle, but angling can make it difficult to set multiple fires including hidden zones of the ship and can limit alpha damage through damage saturation), and RP/DCP management.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1,669
[TBW]
Members
6,323 posts
11,878 battles

The explosion could be shaped to maximize the force in a certain direction.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1,432
[OPGS]
Beta Testers
3,207 posts
5,662 battles
6 minutes ago, Lert said:

That still leaves energy acting on the plate. And that energy doesn't give one iota about angles. In fact, it will - as you say - take the path of least existence and work on the shortest distance through the plate, I.E. perpendicular.

I don't know how much more often I have to repeat this before you accept it. From the sounds of it, you want all HE shells to do 0 damage because "the vast majority of the energy will dissipate when it encounters armor plate" ....

In the Battle off Samar, the escort carriers of Taffy three engaged the Yamato with 500 pound HE bombs. Guess what.....they didn't do squat. The explosive shock wave was not strong enough to rupture the armor plate so all it did was make superficial fireballs which did no damage. If an HE round possesses enough kinetic energy to penetrate the plate and explode inside the ship that that should be where the damage comes from. If the HE shell ricochets off the side and exploded it should not cause any damage, other than to the exposed AA mounts.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
22,453
[HINON]
Supertester
18,916 posts
12,446 battles
Just now, Belthorian said:

In the Battle off Samar, the escort carriers of Taffy three engaged the Yamato with 500 pound HE bombs. Guess what.....they didn't do squat. The explosive shock wave was not strong enough to rupture the armor plate so all it did was make superficial fireballs which did no damage. If an HE round possesses enough kinetic energy to penetrate the plate and explode inside the ship that that should be where the damage comes from. If the HE shell ricochets off the side and exploded it should not cause any damage, other than to the exposed AA mounts.

k

Seems to me you've got your opinion set in stone. That's fine. I'm not gonna bother replying anymore.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×