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Paulo2011

Punishment vs Praise

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Okay lets start with the praise. I am absolutely thrilled that Wargaming is making a move to reduce bad behavior in the game. The penalties are progressive and accurately target actions that most of us dislike. The downside of occasionally punishing a person who doesn't deserve it is minimal compared to the impact on the actual offenders. Well done Wargaming.

 

But is punishment the way to go? Yeah we all like to see a bad person punished but does it extinguish bad behavior? Does it build a tighter community? Does it in any way encourage good behavior?

I argue that the new punishment system is simply going to act as a temporary salve to a much deeper wound. As long as the game is played by humans we will have poor play and bad behaviors unless we switch up the community values and expectations. Punishment by being sent to Coop is much like a speeding ticket, yes I got caught, yes I paid the fine, yes I will also be speeding down the expressway at 75 in a 65 as soon as I pull away from the cop. I take my chances, everybody does it and heck, it was only a ticket.

Focusing on good behavior results in a much better result. And no the reward for good behavior isn't always monetary, that's bribery and the good behavior ends the minute the person no longer receives the bribe. Good behavior is a result of prompt feedback from peers and community. We have the basis of it in the rarely used "compliments" button that somehow is never exploited publicly. I have no tracking on my summary screen, no badge for achievement and no way to know who complimented me for what. How are players going to engage in good behaviors if we have no robust feedback system for giving them acknowledgement for it in a timely manner?

 

As much as I'd love to start to fire to drag certain poor players through the burning coals. I'd much rather have a system that allows me to praise someone in the game more easily and publicly. I encourage Wargaming to consider a change in strategy.

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Players see notification of compliments immediately on exiting the match.  I don't understand your comment that you have "no tracking on my summary screen" as your Karma totals are visible on your Profile tab.  If you are suggesting that you should receive notifications immediately in-game, remember that many players do not give out compliments (or down votes) until after the match anyway.

Besides, compliments seem to be extremely rare in any event.  Finishing first on your team leader board will more likely get you a down vote than a compliment. 

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It's called "communication". I will tell players that they are doing a "good job" or "thanks for supporting me" and I tell them in chat that I am giving them a compliment. I give and am given compliments. So I have 141 Karma.

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You have a good point, I think - the question is how to build such an incentive system.  Compliments (via report/compliment) tend to be given for exceptional play, when they are given at all, and I'm not sure that that system is ever going to translate into a peer-implemented "congratulations you managed to go a game without shooting a friendly" button.  In view of your speeding ticket analogy, WG could have the equivalent of "safe driving discounts" - some minor reward given  to players who don't do team damage above some threshold over the course of a given period.  But WG has tried this, in the form of the ten FTW camos that were, for a while, given every quarter to players who had avoided behavioral infractions (not TKing, rather chat bans and the like).   These awards seem to have stopped - or maybe I've been written up and just don't know it - which at least suggests to me that WG found those awards ineffective in actually changing player behavior.  (Those FTW camos are mad good though, yo - plz WG plz?)

A side question.  Whenever I crash into a teammate in game, the pink chat message blames them for running into me rather than the opposite.  And since I'm often driving a destroyer needing to exit some situation quickly or a cruiser needing to angle when I plow into a battleship sailing along serenissimo, often these collisions are objectively my fault.   Is the fact that they rather than I get publicly blamed due to some global ratio - overall damage versus team damage, or something - that speaks in my favor?  If so, in a sense, there is already some (very, very minor) "award" for overall safe sailing and shooting.

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30 minutes ago, Paulo2011 said:

But is punishment the way to go? Yeah we all like to see a bad person punished but does it extinguish bad behavior?

Yes, it does. 

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Getting top score does not earn a compliment from me.  If you stick with me/work with me in a tough fight or save my hash when I am in a tough fight, you get a compliment.  Example:  I was following a Texas in my Nagato up one side of the Two Brothers map and encountered an enemy Texas and two Nagatos.  No other friendlies around.  We went in together, blew up the Texas and one Nagato, and beat up the other Nagato.  Our Texas got sunk and I got shredded but was alive.  He was near the bottom of the score, but earned a compliment in my book.

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5 minutes ago, Airjellyfish said:

Getting top score does not earn a compliment from me.  If you stick with me/work with me in a tough fight or save my hash when I am in a tough fight, you get a compliment.  Example:  I was following a Texas in my Nagato up one side of the Two Brothers map and encountered an enemy Texas and two Nagatos.  No other friendlies around.  We went in together, blew up the Texas and one Nagato, and beat up the other Nagato.  Our Texas got sunk and I got shredded but was alive.  He was near the bottom of the score, but earned a compliment in my book.

I don't look at stats, I look at the battle.

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1 hour ago, Paulo2011 said:

Okay lets start with the praise. I am absolutely thrilled that Wargaming is making a move to reduce bad behavior in the game. The penalties are progressive and accurately target actions that most of us dislike. The downside of occasionally punishing a person who doesn't deserve it is minimal compared to the impact on the actual offenders. Well done Wargaming.

 

But is punishment the way to go? Yeah we all like to see a bad person punished but does it extinguish bad behavior? Does it build a tighter community? Does it in any way encourage good behavior?

I argue that the new punishment system is simply going to act as a temporary salve to a much deeper wound. As long as the game is played by humans we will have poor play and bad behaviors unless we switch up the community values and expectations. Punishment by being sent to Coop is much like a speeding ticket, yes I got caught, yes I paid the fine, yes I will also be speeding down the expressway at 75 in a 65 as soon as I pull away from the cop. I take my chances, everybody does it and heck, it was only a ticket.

Focusing on good behavior results in a much better result. And no the reward for good behavior isn't always monetary, that's bribery and the good behavior ends the minute the person no longer receives the bribe. Good behavior is a result of prompt feedback from peers and community. We have the basis of it in the rarely used "compliments" button that somehow is never exploited publicly. I have no tracking on my summary screen, no badge for achievement and no way to know who complimented me for what. How are players going to engage in good behaviors if we have no robust feedback system for giving them acknowledgement for it in a timely manner?

 

As much as I'd love to start to fire to drag certain poor players through the burning coals. I'd much rather have a system that allows me to praise someone in the game more easily and publicly. I encourage Wargaming to consider a change in strategy.

While good behavior is desirable; this is to the extent that it is a community; an online one. The bar for acceptable behavior is fairly low. Whether punishment works as a deterrent is a philosophical discourse I don't care to have.

Bribery, on the other hand, works quite well. I think something on the lines of the 3% XP bonus that clan members is attractive enough to those that can do math. Why not implement something similar based on behavior? 

Stay out of trouble and you get a credit bonus of X%. Three percent seems a good starting place to try. T/K or earn some other infraction and you lose that bonus for say, two weeks(on top of what ever other penalties you get).

 

Also: Maybe rethink making folks a target with the pink label?

There's nothing so aggravating as trying to peaceably work off a debt and being griefed for it..

 

The negative penalties keep piling up if you transgress during probation or accrue a record of habitual misbehavior. 

As an added incentive(which will help retention btw) I would throw in a couple percentage points of XP & credit bonus to those players who achieve by earned XP, their tier first Tier V ship.These 'good citizenship points' are the first thing to be suspended and carry progressively longer probation times.

That they can be removed for months or permanently goes without saying. Anyone who can do the math involved in compounding interest can see the attraction of good behavior, be they a heel at heart or no. 

One or two points each isn't going to break the  game, and will be a welcome boost to top tier players while not necessarily saving their bacon financially.

There's another sure fire option for behavior modification: Simply suspend access to the ship used in the offense and/or all premiums of the offending account for a time.(determined by offense and repetitions thereof) 

Even the most maliciously intended will run out of ships eventually.  

Edited by Curly__san
clarity

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8 minutes ago, Airjellyfish said:

Getting top score does not earn a compliment from me.  If you stick with me/work with me in a tough fight or save my hash when I am in a tough fight, you get a compliment.  Example:  I was following a Texas in my Nagato up one side of the Two Brothers map and encountered an enemy Texas and two Nagatos.  No other friendlies around.  We went in together, blew up the Texas and one Nagato, and beat up the other Nagato.  Our Texas got sunk and I got shredded but was alive.  He was near the bottom of the score, but earned a compliment in my book.

He earned a compliment for yoloing in and taking fire so you could score?:Smile_glasses:

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2 minutes ago, awiggin said:

He earned a compliment for yoloing in and taking fire so you could score?:Smile_glasses:

He didn't yolo.  I followed him in about 1 km behind him.  We went in together.  Maybe I should have specified a distance in my original post after the word following.  He could have turned in ran like other cowards.  2 v 3 is ok odds in my book.

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I believe the carrot and the stick both have their uses. There are a lot of carrots in the game already, and the sticks have been fairly harmless. I mean, is there any real penalty right now for turning pink? And soon, you could be temporarily banished to co-op after having been warned. But is there a earnings penalty for being pink? I don't think so, just for the friendly damage dealt.

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8 minutes ago, Curly__san said:

Bribery, on the other hand, works quite well. I think something on the lines of the 3% XP bonus that clan members is attractive enough to those that can do math. Why not implement something similar based on behavior? 

 

This already exists in the game and is not very effective at driving behavior. The XP and financial rewards models are biased towards the proper behavior. Dealing damage, tanking damage, spotting enemies, capping, resetting caps... All of the XP rewards and silver rewards are based on promoting the right behavior. Does this stop BBs from camping at max range? No. Does this stop DDs from going on crazy CV hunting campaigns? No. Consider how stupid the average person is and remember that half are dumber than that. Smarter people are driven by rewards while the dumber only take notice after being punished.

 

Both rewards and punishment are necessary.

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Honestly, I agree that a carrot and stick approach is better than just using one or the other. 

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10 minutes ago, cometguy said:

I believe the carrot and the stick both have their uses.

 

5 minutes ago, SkaerKrow said:

Honestly, I agree that a carrot and stick approach is better than just using one or the other. 

The carrot is supposed to be dangling from the stick to make the carrot unobtainable.

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Just now, Sovereigndawg said:

 

The carrot is supposed to be dangling from the stick to make the carrot unobtainable.

Lol. The true Unobtanium in this game is the fully manned/personed/entitied Division that:

1. Communicates effectively

2. Works together &..

3. Has fun whilst kicking posterior.

 

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1 hour ago, Lillehuntrix said:

A side question.  Whenever I crash into a teammate in game, the pink chat message blames them for running into me rather than the opposite.  And since I'm often driving a destroyer needing to exit some situation quickly or a cruiser needing to angle when I plow into a battleship sailing along serenissimo, often these collisions are objectively my fault.   Is the fact that they rather than I get publicly blamed due to some global ratio - overall damage versus team damage, or something - that speaks in my favor?  If so, in a sense, there is already some (very, very minor) "award" for overall safe sailing and shooting.

Someone needs to pay more attention...When a pair of your teammates collide, have you noticed that you see pink system warning messages displayed to both parties? The same thing happens when you collide with a teammate - everyone else sees the warnings for both parties - including you. An involved party only sees their own warning - not the one issued to the other guy. Uninvolved parties see them all.

Don't be so introspective or egocentric....the system ain't favoring you.

6500 battles and...

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6 minutes ago, MannyD_of_The_Sea said:

Someone needs to pay more attention...When a pair of your teammates collide, have you noticed that you see pink system warning messages displayed to both parties? The same thing happens when you collide with a teammate - everyone else sees the warnings for both parties - including you. An involved party only sees their own warning - not the one issued to the other guy. Uninvolved parties see them all.

Don't be so introspective or egocentric....the system ain't favoring you.

6500 battles and...

Ah, thanks - indeed, I had not noticed that.  It is funny for the system to be warning me solely about what the other player is doing when we are colliding with one another, while warnings for friendly fire ("don't fire at your allies") are given to the player initiating the action and this is reflected in the all-chat message.  Anyway, a digression from the OPs main point.

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3 hours ago, Paulo2011 said:

As long as the game is played by humans we will have poor play and bad behaviors unless we switch up the community values and expectations.

I, for the most part,  behave in the game. Nothing I would care if anyone associated with me IRL. However, no amount of expectations will cause me to refrain from poor play. I am not that consistent. 

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