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rapier_ape

Countering Asashio

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Despite the pleas of pretty much everyone, Asashio is coming. It's now up to us to figure out how to deal with it. Just like the Conqueror thread I made, this thread is ONLY for discussing counterplay tactics against a ship that hard counters battleships, rather than the merits of deep water torps or the BB vs DD meta. 

Let's start by noting some key stats about our enemy's hull. (Stats are from the wiki as of 4/4/18)

  • 5.6km surface detection when upgraded with Concealment Modification 1 and Concealment Expert. Air spotted at 3km.
  • 15,100 HP (17,900 w/ Survivability Expert.) 
  • 35 knots base speed.

And now the torpedo system, in greater detail. (The gun systems are of little interest to us.)

  • 2 Quad Torpedo launchers.
  • 100 second reload with Torpedo Armament Expertise, as low as 81 seconds with Adrenaline Rush.
  • Torpedo Reload Booster II always equipped, drops reload to 8 seconds, with 240 second cooldown. 
  • Type 93 "Long Lance" deep water torpedoes configured to only strike BBs and CVs. 
  • Default torpedoes 67 knots, 20km range, with .9km surface detectability without Target Acquisition Mod 1 or Vigilance
  • Accelerated torpedoes 72 knots, 16km range .9km.
  • Reaction times <5 seconds. (Essentially non-existent.)  


Counter play will inevitably be similar to that against the Conqueror. in that solo-countering is not feasible. I'm throwing out some tactics that worked somewhat well during the worst days of pre-nerf Shimakaze torpedo soup just to get us started. 

  • Use terrain to frustrate attacks from the other side of the map. Try to keep islands between your ship and safe havens for DDs like channels and harbors. (Think "A" cap on Sleeping Giant.)
  • Position yourself abreast other ships to minimize the chance torpedoes will be able to pass without being noticed. (Obviously this won't work nearly as well as it does against the Shimakaze's torpedoes because of the Deep Water torps :Smile-angry:)
  • Position your stern towards the likely location of the Asashio before launching catapult aircraft. The AI that governs the aircraft flight patterns tends to send them behind you for whatever reason. (Why spotting aircraft don't fly ahead of you where they might actually spot enemy ships is beyond me...)
  • Do not repair floods immediately after the first hit. For some (grossly unjustifiable) reason, Asashio gets to mount both TRB and smoke, meaning there is a strong possibility the first two racks of torpedoes will be followed by others shortly thereafter. Flooding is extremely annoying, but it's often better to flood for 30 seconds in anticipation of another set of torps than dying from the floods that last in excess of one minute. Naturally this SUCKS given the penalties to your maneuverability, but that sucker wants nothing more than for you to smash that DC button instantly. The longer you force him to hold off the "kill shot" the more time your spotters or friendly ships have to stymie his efforts. 
  • If the Asashio is spotted briefly, always mark it's position on the map and call it out in chat. The "Last Known Position" marker doesn't indicate what class of ship, which is extremely critical information for BB players when an Asashio lurks. 

If a full-HP Asashio  appears at close range, do not bother trying to bother attempting to damage it with your secondary battery, especially if it fires USN 5"/38 spitballs. Destroyers hate battleship AP. So give them something to whine about on the forums and practice getting so-called "multi-compartment" overpenetrations in co-op when a DD points his bow or stern at you. Don't bother with HE. You run into the horrifying situation where it may strike a module for no damage, or deal only 1/2 damage against a "saturated" target. AP works every time. Also, disabling a module on a destroyer is essentially meaningless given the "super-power" available for only 2 captain points and the microscopic damage control reload times enjoyed by DDs. 


Team Play against the Asashio is critical. Constantly remind your friendly DDs that if they don't track down the Asashio early on, you cannot possibly protect the cruisers which are supposed to protect them. Remind your cruisers that if they don't aid the DDs with radar or rapid-fire HE in killing the Asashio you bear no responsibility for them being deleted by other battleships. And tell your carrier that if chooses to farm damage instead of monitoring an Asashio  that he too, is vulnerable to those rotten Long Lances. (Anyone from WG is welcome to explain to me why a Saipan class escort carrier with a 28 ft draft is vulnerable to these torps despite a Moskva, which easily has a 30 ft draft in game,  is wholly immune to them.) 


How do you plan to deal with this most unwelcome addition to the game? Again, please leave the "should it be nerfed" conversation out of it. 

Asashio_goof.jpg

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Got more chance of winning lottery than organised or coherent team play in randoms. Sure it happens now and then, you can only rely on a div mate or yourself.

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35 minutes ago, rapier_ape said:

 

Asashio_goof.jpg

Did someone say Benihana?

 

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It's almost like it's intended to hurt BaBBies...

 

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Radar will play a key element. Another reason to break out the Atlanta.

Edited by Sovereigndawg
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If you get hit from a torpedo more than 10km away, you probably deserve it. The odds of something hitting you at 20km without first hitting islands, enemy ships, friendly ships or being spotted along the way is so statistically low as to be a nonissue. I don't foresee it being any more difficult to counter than any other IJN destroyer.

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How to counter Asashio:
 

Play anything that is not a battleship and hunt it down cause it can't adequately defend itself against anything other than itself.

How to counter asashio as a battleship: Don't sail by yourself, isolated from the team and eat torpedoes. Stick with your team so they can be torpedo early warning system. Bonus: They can't get hit by the torpedoes.

- Oh, I guess that's usual tactic for battleships when dealing with destroyers in general.

 

You're also going to note, a lot of Asashio players are going to have to make an effort to go out of the way to kill a BB with torpedoes at the cost of their ability to contribute to their team. If you play right and stick with the team, it's making it hard for them to actually win their game because everything that is not a BB counters Asashio.

Edited by Arlios
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It's quite simple, stick with your team. Perhaps not directly with them but a few kilometers behind them

 Try to keep your ships flanks from being open by keeping another ship between you and large open spaces to spot incoming torpedoes.

 

Adjust your speed and angle from time to time to throw off torpedoes sent from long range.

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12 hours ago, rapier_ape said:

Despite the pleas of pretty much everyone, Asashio is coming. It's now up to us to figure out how to deal with it. Just like the Conqueror thread I made, this thread is ONLY for discussing counterplay tactics against a ship that hard counters battleships, rather than the merits of deep water torps or the BB vs DD meta. 

Let's start by noting some key stats about our enemy's hull. (Stats are from the wiki as of 4/4/18)

  • 5.6km surface detection when upgraded with Concealment Modification 1 and Concealment Expert. Air spotted at 3km.
  • 15,100 HP (17,900 w/ Survivability Expert.) 
  • 35 knots base speed.

And now the torpedo system, in greater detail. (The gun systems are of little interest to us.)

  • 2 Quad Torpedo launchers.
  • 100 second reload with Torpedo Armament Expertise, as low as 81 seconds with Adrenaline Rush.
  • Torpedo Reload Booster II always equipped, drops reload to 8 seconds, with 240 second cooldown. 
  • Type 93 "Long Lance" deep water torpedoes configured to only strike BBs and CVs. 
  • Default torpedoes 67 knots, 20km range, with .9km surface detectability without Target Acquisition Mod 1 or Vigilance
  • Accelerated torpedoes 72 knots, 16km range .9km.
  • Reaction times <5 seconds. (Essentially non-existent.)  


Counter play will inevitably be similar to that against the Conqueror. in that solo-countering is not feasible. I'm throwing out some tactics that worked somewhat well during the worst days of pre-nerf Shimakaze torpedo soup just to get us started. 

  • Use terrain to frustrate attacks from the other side of the map. Try to keep islands between your ship and safe havens for DDs like channels and harbors. (Think "A" cap on Sleeping Giant.)
  • Position yourself abreast other ships to minimize the chance torpedoes will be able to pass without being noticed. (Obviously this won't work nearly as well as it does against the Shimakaze's torpedoes because of the Deep Water torps :Smile-angry:)
  • Position your stern towards the likely location of the Asashio before launching catapult aircraft. The AI that governs the aircraft flight patterns tends to send them behind you for whatever reason. (Why spotting aircraft don't fly ahead of you where they might actually spot enemy ships is beyond me...)
  • Do not repair floods immediately after the first hit. For some (grossly unjustifiable) reason, Asashio gets to mount both TRB and smoke, meaning there is a strong possibility the first two racks of torpedoes will be followed by others shortly thereafter. Flooding is extremely annoying, but it's often better to flood for 30 seconds in anticipation of another set of torps than dying from the floods that last in excess of one minute. Naturally this SUCKS given the penalties to your maneuverability, but that sucker wants nothing more than for you to smash that DC button instantly. The longer you force him to hold off the "kill shot" the more time your spotters or friendly ships have to stymie his efforts. 
  • If the Asashio is spotted briefly, always mark it's position on the map and call it out in chat. The "Last Known Position" marker doesn't indicate what class of ship, which is extremely critical information for BB players when an Asashio lurks. 

If a full-HP Asashio  appears at close range, do not bother trying to bother attempting to damage it with your secondary battery, especially if it fires USN 5"/38 spitballs. Destroyers hate battleship AP. So give them something to whine about on the forums and practice getting so-called "multi-compartment" overpenetrations in co-op when a DD points his bow or stern at you. Don't bother with HE. You run into the horrifying situation where it may strike a module for no damage, or deal only 1/2 damage against a "saturated" target. AP works every time. Also, disabling a module on a destroyer is essentially meaningless given the "super-power" available for only 2 captain points and the microscopic damage control reload times enjoyed by DDs. 


Team Play against the Asashio is critical. Constantly remind your friendly DDs that if they don't track down the Asashio early on, you cannot possibly protect the cruisers which are supposed to protect them. Remind your cruisers that if they don't aid the DDs with radar or rapid-fire HE in killing the Asashio you bear no responsibility for them being deleted by other battleships. And tell your carrier that if chooses to farm damage instead of monitoring an Asashio  that he too, is vulnerable to those rotten Long Lances. (Anyone from WG is welcome to explain to me why a Saipan class escort carrier with a 28 ft draft is vulnerable to these torps despite a Moskva, which easily has a 30 ft draft in game,  is wholly immune to them.) 


How do you plan to deal with this most unwelcome addition to the game? Again, please leave the "should it be nerfed" conversation out of it. 

Asashio_goof.jpg

Very thoughtful post....

As I have previously noted I think that WarGaming is intending to "link" the Asashito and Kronshtadt in that the sales of the first will greatly aid in interest in getting the other. With BBs being played less or quickly getting sunk (per every Asashito video on YouTube...) the Kronshtadt will rapidly become one of the dominant ships in a BB-depleted match and also immune to the Asashito's torpedoes. With the addition of the Donskoi radar I think that the Kronshtadt could be a "soft" counter to the Asashito with the combination of an 11 km radar and relatively fast firing 305 mm rifles, especially with AP ammo.

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Some good feedback thus far. For those of you Cruiser players reading, how can a BB best assist you with killing DDs? Do you ever try to "bait" DDs by making it appear you are going to leave a BB by itself and then turn back a minute later? I've trolled a lot of CVs with that technique in my Atlanta.

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13 hours ago, murryhawk said:

Got more chance of winning lottery than organised or coherent team play in randoms. Sure it happens now and then, you can only rely on a div mate or yourself.

Hey

Exactly right.  Team play is only getting worse in random.  Div. play is the best way to counter the non-objective playing potato's we are seeing so much of  these days.

A counter for the Asashio; make more use of fighter/spotter aircraft using the dual catapult  aircraft (1pt skill), vigilance may be useful  to consider if it gets too bad (3pt skill).  Maybe start brushing up on cruisers and DD's instead of playing BB's (lol).

 

Pete

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I failed to see what all the doom and gloom about that ship is all about.  As a BB player, I don't sit back and snipe all day.  I go mid to close range for support, tanking, and brawling.  As a result, a good portion of the time when torpedoes are in the water, my teammates either spotted them early on that I can make adjustments or my teammates takes the torpedoes.  This ship's torpedo's characteristic means your teammates won't be taking three hits for you.  But they can still spot for you.  Nothing really changed.  Unless of course you like to be solo a lot.

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27 minutes ago, fierymountain said:

I failed to see what all the doom and gloom about that ship is all about.  As a BB player, I don't sit back and snipe all day.  I go mid to close range for support, tanking, and brawling.  As a result, a good portion of the time when torpedoes are in the water, my teammates either spotted them early on that I can make adjustments or my teammates takes the torpedoes.  This ship's torpedo's characteristic means your teammates won't be taking three hits for you.  But they can still spot for you.  Nothing really changed.  Unless of course you like to be solo a lot.

Hey

With good spotting and paying attention to the mini-map more will be very helpful.  Many think it's going to push BB's back further in their base.  Well, sometimes you can't get much further in their base the way some people are playing these days, and if you play that way, you deserves to get punished.

 

Pete

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Don't forget the Asashio is going to take the new throne of being the #1 priority target, everybody and their dogs and the dog fleas are going to focus fire or hunt him down.  LOL

 

 

Edited by Xcalib3r

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Maybe it's because I've been playing since OBT back when IJN torpedos were very stealthy and dangerous but this doesn't bother me because I still vary my speed and direction of travel and give wide berth to islands. I'm not very concerned period because I'm not a brain dead BB captain sailing in a straight line or sitting still

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2 hours ago, Psycodiver said:

Maybe it's because I've been playing since OBT back when IJN torpedos were very stealthy and dangerous but this doesn't bother me because I still vary my speed and direction of travel and give wide berth to islands. I'm not very concerned period because I'm not a brain dead BB captain sailing in a straight line or sitting still

I got my first T8 during some of the worst days of triple Shimakaze divsions, but they nerfed their torps right as zig-zagging was becoming second nature for me. :Smile_facepalm:

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2 hours ago, rapier_ape said:

I got my first T8 during some of the worst days of triple Shimakaze divsions, but they nerfed their torps right as zig-zagging was becoming second nature for me. :Smile_facepalm:

Just like the old CV days when you might have a T6 CV vs a T8 CV OR have 2 CVs on one team and no CVs on the other, good times lmbo

 

I do miss the old Minekaze though, those divisions were monstrous even when bottom tier given that torpedo reload and stealth

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Hey

It's just like any other supposedly OP ship that has come out; problems for a while with the learning curve but then everyone figures it out and the big bad wolf doesn't have the bite it used to; just like Kutuzov and Belfast, now you don't see them all that often, not to mention they have been removed from the general population.  Will Asashio be the same, maybe?  

 

Pete

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5 hours ago, sasquatch_research said:

Hey

It's just like any other supposedly OP ship that has come out; problems for a while with the learning curve but then everyone figures it out and the big bad wolf doesn't have the bite it used to; just like Kutuzov and Belfast, now you don't see them all that often, not to mention they have been removed from the general population.  Will Asashio be the same, maybe?  

 

Pete

The ships you named took a massive nerf when detection after firing in smoke was adjusted, which was a change brought down from on high. Sure, players adjusted to their introduction and diminished their effectiveness but it may take the same kind of slap in the face directly from WG that the Shimmy got to give this ship the appropriate level of "bite" for a Tier 8. 

I guess we find out just how broken it is or isn't today and tomorrow.  I for one, will be playing Missouri and Alabama so I can either help snuff it out of smoke or enjoy a 50% torpedo damage reduction. 

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On 4/20/2018 at 7:53 PM, Psycodiver said:

Maybe it's because I've been playing since OBT back when IJN torpedos were very stealthy and dangerous but this doesn't bother me because I still vary my speed and direction of travel and give wide berth to islands. I'm not very concerned period because I'm not a brain dead BB captain sailing in a straight line or sitting still

This. I'm a DD main (and a pretty good one) that's been playing mostly BBs for the last three months or so because needed a break from DD and because I love French BBs so much. I play very aggressive and push constantly. And I very, very rarely eat torps and almost never eat more than one. Why? 

W. A. S. D. 

If you get torped by an Asashio, it's either because he had good luck and instincts in guessing when and how you'd zig and zag, insanely great luck in hitting you with random torps despite your evasion ...or it's your fault. There is no other option. 

Yes, once in a while you'll have something crazy happen like an Asashio firing 'prayer' torps at max range that happen to nail you. Or even with your evasion, you'll clip the front or back one out of a torp spread. Or you're just in the wrong place at the wrong time. But that happens to every ship type. DDs and cruisers deal with that too; we do everything right, and then radar pops up or someone rounds a corner unexpectedly and boom, we dead. Congrats, now this can happen to you. But 80+% of BBs that die to an Asashio will be their own fault for being derpy and not WASDing. 

Constantly vary course and speed. Know where your cruisers are and where they aren't, where a DD can approach from and where they can't. Think like a DD driver and counter what you would do. Hell, go play some DDs  and learn how they do what they do  so you can evade better. I'm a much better BB driver than I would be if I didn't have thousands of games in DDs. You can do that too. 

Or...keep whining in forums and screaming 'the sky is falling' and crying about the go*****ned Asashio...when people laugh at BBbabies, this kind of thing is why. Me? I look forward to Asashio, so I can watch them derp off missing me with torps and wasting their opportunities for damage while I delete their [edited] as soon as they're spotted. 

Whine less. Suck less. WASD more. 

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On 4/17/2018 at 7:20 PM, rapier_ape said:

Asashio_goof.jpg

They have a Benihana?  Why would a Japanese crew have an American restaurant on their ship when their busy fighting Americans? 

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I am thinking of how annoying it will be to deal with the unskilled Ashaio players firing off their torpedos from 10-20km away and then one of them hits you when your on the same team as them. Has no one thought about what happens when Graf Zepplin plus Ashaio divisions are going to be very difficult to deal with. 

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23 hours ago, poeticmotion said:

WASD more. 

When it's late in a game, and you're in a DD trying to hold a capture point, and a BB approaches, what is the most annoying thing it can do? Launch a spotter? Sail along the edge of the point? Detonate you with its secondary battery? :Smile-_tongue:

Eat_Dirt_Shimmy.jpg

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2 hours ago, rapier_ape said:

When it's late in a game, and you're in a DD trying to hold a capture point, and a BB approaches, what is the most annoying thing it can do? Launch a spotter? Sail along the edge of the point? Detonate you with its secondary battery? :Smile-_tongue:

Eat_Dirt_Shimmy.jpg

So you detonated a Shima with secondaries once.  Not sure how that's relevant.

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