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zarth12

BB hard counter requested

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Well as noted by Wargamings Official stance right now is:

- no plans are even being considered for Radar (even though not adhering to LoS rules is game-breaking and fixing such is NOT an engine limitation)
- no plans for matchmaking corrections for Radar equipped ships  (balance out teams based on this hard counter should be top priority, this should be common sense...)
- WoWs is meant to be Rock-Paper-Scissors

Source (last page, final post from RadarX):

Source  (Dev Q&A): https://thedailybounce.net/2018/04/17/world-of-warships-developers-qa/

 

Now even though Wargaming is blatantly contradictory and hypocritical, it is fair to demand that the double-standards are addressed so the game can flourish in a balanced and skilled environment.

Note the contradictory of the quotes from source above:

 

Quote

Four DD limit. This is not a strict restriction, and if there are destroyers waiting in the queue for too long – this restriction will be discarded. But in the total mass of battles with 5+ DD will be much less.

and
 

Quote

But class balance will be improved. Rock-Paper-Scissors in each battle


That is Wargaming claiming there will be some sort of DD limitation imposed on the MM but not one for other ship types like "BB". At the same time, claiming the balance scheme they are imposing is "Rock-Paper-Scissors".  If you limit one ship type meant to counter another, but not the others equally..... than it cannot be RPS based. Simple as that. This further adds to the amusement when the highest population ship type is not seeing the same MM limitations.


With this said, since Wargaming has Officially stated in combination that Radar will not be fixed, and that their official projection for WoWs balance environment is in fact "Rock-Paper-Scissors", it is now a justifiable and logical request for DDs to also be granted the same adjustments to conform with that RPS environment. This adjustment, would in turn be in the form of modifying existing consumables and/or armament or adding a new consumable and/or armament that specifically and directly counters Battleships, the intended RPS link. Slated with the same power and disregard for standard existing environmental rules (like LoS) as Radar.

Some of the potential changes/additions, in my opinion, are as follows (pick one):

- All DDs beyond Tier 6 have their torpedo attributes buffed (velocity, detectability, spread, range and damage) but changed to Asashio equivalent DWT target specification (BB and CV only)

- All DDs beyond Tier 6 are given an additional researchable and mountable torpedo upgrade that increase detectability range but adds "acoustic homing", which grants the fired torpedoes the ability to track and course correct independently after fired if the locked target was a Battleship, and as long as the target locked continues to be of Battleship type until the Torpedoes make contact or are otherwise reach range limit.

- All DDs beyond Tier 6 are given an additional consumable slot that solely exists for a new consumable. This new consumable causes the next set of Torpedoes fired to be DWT, comparable to Asashio type. These torpedoes will ignore any and ALL TDS.

- ALL DD based torpedoes in game  no longer effect Cruisers, have increased range and velocity, and can also go through all ship wrecks. All DD based torpedoes will now also pass through friendly targets as well.


-------------------------------------------------------------

Now in addition to the above. Some elements will need to be corrected. Like Battleship AP double dipping.






 

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I would have to disagree with you on many points here sir, because I believe the battleship class has a lot of counters in the game already as it is. 
Battleship counters: 

-Other BBs
-Cruiser HE Spam/torps
-DD torps/HE spam
-BB - Slow & Turn wide
-CVs
-Run Away Meta

22 minutes ago, zarth12 said:


That is Wargaming claiming there will be some sort of DD limitation imposed on the MM but not one for other ship types like "BB". At the same time, claiming the balance scheme they are imposing is "Rock-Paper-Scissors".  If you limit one ship type meant to counter another, but not the others equally..... than it cannot be RPS based. Simple as that. This further adds to the amusement when the highest population ship type is not seeing the same MM limitations.

I believe that they should limit the dds per game to 3 in my opinion. I feel that four is a good start because a team with even 1 good destroyer can change the way the battleships push into or around caps. I love to play the IJN destroyer Shimakaze and my favorite match is one where I am either 1 of 3 or less dds in that game. I feel that when there are 5 dds it makes the teams to scared to make a push and depending on the dds it could change how I try to take caps. Having a lot of DDs also makes the overall HP pool the the teams lower and a lot harder for me to get good damage. 

Have you heard about the Asashio? That thing is the bane of battleships. Check out this review by LittleWhiteMouse: 
http://shipcomrade.com/news/410/all-of-your-worst-nightmares-realized.html
This may be the answer you were looking for all along. 

Edited by Zarenno
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Can we just get a separate forum for DD whining?  It's a topic that definitely gets enough traffic to justify it.

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I don't want hard counter to anything. I want strong counter that you still have a chance to fight back and win/survive.

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2 minutes ago, TheDreadnought said:

Can we just get a separate forum for DD whining?  It's a topic that definitely gets enough traffic to justify it.

So this one can be left to BBs requesting things like opting out of CV matches? :cap_haloween:

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4 minutes ago, Zarenno said:

I would have to disagree with you on many points here sir, because I believe the battleship class has a lot of counters in the game already as it is. 

I believe that they should limit the dds per game to 3 in my opinion. I feel that four is a good start because a team with even 1 good destroyer can change the way the battleships push into or around caps. I love to play the IJN destroyer Shimakaze and my favorite match is one where I am either 1 of 3 or less dds in that game. I feel that when there are 5 dds it makes the teams to scared to make a push and depending on the dds it could change how I try to take caps. Having a lot of DDs also makes the overall HP pool the the teams lower and a lot harder for me to get good damage. 

Have you heard about the Asashio? That thing is the bane of battleships. Check out this review by LittleWhiteMouse: 
http://shipcomrade.com/news/410/all-of-your-worst-nightmares-realized.html
This may be the answer you were looking for all along. 

I was once in a game with one dd per side and lots of bb. The enemy team's dd was the t7 kiev with 4km torps. My team still refused to push even after I told them the kiev didn't have long range torps. I've been in plenty of other games with low numbers of dd that played out the same way.

It's not the dd that's stopping the sheep from pushing.

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11 minutes ago, zarth12 said:


- All DDs beyond Tier 6 have their torpedo attributes buffed (velocity, detectability, spread, range and damage) but changed to Asashio equivalent DWT target specification (BB and CV only)

- All DDs beyond Tier 6 are given an additional researchable and mountable torpedo upgrade that increase detectability range but adds "acoustic homing", which grants the fired torpedoes the ability to track and course correct independently after fired if the locked target was a Battleship, and as long as the target locked continues to be of Battleship type until the Torpedoes make contact or are otherwise reach range limit.

- All DDs beyond Tier 6 are given an additional consumable slot that solely exists for a new consumable. This new consumable causes the next set of Torpedoes fired to be DWT, comparable to Asashio type. These torpedoes will ignore any and ALL TDS.

- ALL DD based torpedoes in game  no longer effect Cruisers, have increased range and velocity, and can also go through all ship wrecks. All DD based torpedoes will now also pass through friendly targets as well.

Wait wait wait wait wait...what?

-Ok, I get it, you miss the old IJN ultra stealth battleship deleting laser. But are you sure? Tier 6-7 battles are fun because battleships can, should, and wants to push and brawl, and now you want every torpedo to be a no counter, zero warning no brainer tool? And not just for IJN, but every destroyer?

-Homing torpedoes? This is just making me angry -- it makes no sense. The ships that will be punished the hardest would be the slow 21kts USN battleships that are already the victims of continual power creep. Plus it just destroys player skill factor: A tomato can now delete battleships just like a Unicum that predicts the battleships' movement and blind drops based on minimap...

-Do we not have enough gimmicks already? And can we have an Alabama refund if this ever came true?

-Imagine your wish came true, nobody will play battleships anymore, because like you said, there is no counter. No matter how much effort one may put in, how much practice, how much awareness a battleship Unicom has, he will be destroyed by 16km 72kts invisible homing torpedoes that ignores their torpedo protection... What's next? Who will be there to hold the line? Who shall lead an offensive? Who will be there for you to farm damage and make your little end game result prettier?

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I posted on another thread but its more fitting here.  We won't see a BB soft cap because its not really possible without longer queue times with the BB overpopulation.  DDs are the least played ship type so a soft can is pretty easy to pull off.  It makes me believe MM was weighted (to some extent) to make DD heavy matches, and now that's being adjusted.

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The biggest counter to BB's is other BB's AP plain and simple. Its the damage type they take the most damage from. 

Torpedoes are the least amount of damage taken by BB's, which says a lot considering they are meant to counter them. 

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Wanna know what will happen if your opinions were to go through? BB population will decrease, DDs will dominate, CAs will have free reign. After a  bit DDs focusing on torpedoes wont find as many BBs as before and will be at a severe disadvantage over gunboat DDs, since torpedoes are far easier to avoid in a CA or DD.  So then you will have to balance the meta between DD playstyles. You are basically exchanging one problem for another. 

I personally hope you are just trolling... :cap_tea:

Edited by warheart1992
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Looks like too many people put the alt account on ignore.....:Smile_teethhappy:

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3 minutes ago, warheart1992 said:

 

I personally hope you are just trolling... :cap_tea:

He's trolling for fallacies.

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I think one problem with the rock - paper - scissors is that BB captains have had to learn to fight DDs.  I know personally I enjoy fighting a DD.  Many have learned not to sail in a straight line and sorry to say, many DD captains use the same tactics against BBs without changing.

Had a battle last week where a DD went for our CV.  Our CA nearby ran away while I charged.  Ended up beating two DDs while our CA hid and our CV survived.

BB captains have had to learn how to fight DDs because the CAs, which are the counter to DDs run and hide.

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Just now, The_first_harbinger said:

Wait wait wait wait wait...what?

There aren't many that are more sympathetic to double standard where DDs come out on the bottom.  That said I think these are silly idea (and I don't believe Zarth is serious about them).

Again these aren't serious ideas but lets flip your points around and see how they apply to DDs.

Just now, The_first_harbinger said:

-Homing torpedoes? This is just making me angry -- it makes no sense. The ships that will be punished the hardest would be the slow 21kts USN battleships that are already the victims of continual power creep. Plus it just destroys player skill factor: A tomato can now delete battleships just like a Unicum that predicts the battleships' movement and blind drops based on minimap...

-Radar, it makes no sense because it punishes the ships spotting and playing the objectives the hardest.  US DDs are hit hard by radar and they are already the victims of power creep.  A potato can sit behind an island and pop radar when the cap starts to change.

3 minutes ago, The_first_harbinger said:

-Do we not have enough gimmicks already? And can we have an Alabama refund if this ever came true?

Did we need another gimmick like radar. Can we have a refund (name any tier eight premium DD).

5 minutes ago, The_first_harbinger said:

-Imagine your wish came true, nobody will play battleships anymore, because like you said, there is no counter. No matter how much effort one may put in, how much practice, how much awareness a battleship Unicom has, he will be destroyed by 16km 72kts invisible homing torpedoes that ignores their torpedo protection... What's next? Who will be there to hold the line? Who shall lead an offensive? Who will be there for you to farm damage and make your little end game result prettier?

No question there will be negative effects of mechanics that punish BBs just as there have been with radar and other mechanics that target DDs.  Its all fun and games when the hard counter mechanics are for the other guy, but when they target you its get real.         

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Battleships have more hard counters than any other class in the game. The only things that don’t exist to specifically hose battleships are hydro, radar, fighters, and defensive AA. If you can’t find a way to deal with battleships given all of the tools that are already present in the game, then you’re the problem, not your ship.

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40 minutes ago, zarth12 said:

Well as noted by Wargamings Official stance right now is:

- no plans are even being considered for Radar (even though not adhering to LoS rules is game-breaking and fixing such is NOT an engine limitation)
- no plans for matchmaking corrections for Radar equipped ships  (balance out teams based on this hard counter should be top priority, this should be common sense...)
- WoWs is meant to be Rock-Paper-Scissors

Source (last page, final post from RadarX):

Source  (Dev Q&A): https://thedailybounce.net/2018/04/17/world-of-warships-developers-qa/

 

Now even though Wargaming is blatantly contradictory and hypocritical, it is fair to demand that the double-standards are addressed so the game can flourish in a balanced and skilled environment.

Note the contradictory of the quotes from source above:

 

and
 


That is Wargaming claiming there will be some sort of DD limitation imposed on the MM but not one for other ship types like "BB". At the same time, claiming the balance scheme they are imposing is "Rock-Paper-Scissors".  If you limit one ship type meant to counter another, but not the others equally..... than it cannot be RPS based. Simple as that. This further adds to the amusement when the highest population ship type is not seeing the same MM limitations.


With this said, since Wargaming has Officially stated in combination that Radar will not be fixed, and that their official projection for WoWs balance environment is in fact "Rock-Paper-Scissors", it is now a justifiable and logical request for DDs to also be granted the same adjustments to conform with that RPS environment. This adjustment, would in turn be in the form of modifying existing consumables and/or armament or adding a new consumable and/or armament that specifically and directly counters Battleships, the intended RPS link. Slated with the same power and disregard for standard existing environmental rules (like LoS) as Radar.

Some of the potential changes/additions, in my opinion, are as follows (pick one):

- All DDs beyond Tier 6 have their torpedo attributes buffed (velocity, detectability, spread, range and damage) but changed to Asashio equivalent DWT target specification (BB and CV only)

- All DDs beyond Tier 6 are given an additional researchable and mountable torpedo upgrade that increase detectability range but adds "acoustic homing", which grants the fired torpedoes the ability to track and course correct independently after fired if the locked target was a Battleship, and as long as the target locked continues to be of Battleship type until the Torpedoes make contact or are otherwise reach range limit.

- All DDs beyond Tier 6 are given an additional consumable slot that solely exists for a new consumable. This new consumable causes the next set of Torpedoes fired to be DWT, comparable to Asashio type. These torpedoes will ignore any and ALL TDS.

- ALL DD based torpedoes in game  no longer effect Cruisers, have increased range and velocity, and can also go through all ship wrecks. All DD based torpedoes will now also pass through friendly targets as well.


-------------------------------------------------------------

Now in addition to the above. Some elements will need to be corrected. Like Battleship AP double dipping.






 

Better watch out- the BB mafia will be all over you.

WG encourages BBs because they make money, rightfully so, hence the doublespeak and gimmick counters as appeasement.

The BB mafia needs them to compensate for real life inadequacies and match their sloth-like mental acuity.

You might find a few reasoned BB advocates that may agree or disagree with your position but they are difficult to find however, they do frequent the forums.

 

 

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I swear some Destroyer players will not be happy until they can get within  .2 kilometers and fire torpedos that cannot be detected. NEWSFLASH a highly skilled DD player will hard counter a highly skilled Battleship player every time. If you are not a hard counter against a battleship than you need to get better.  Here is a second NEWSFLASH Battleships are not a hard counter to Cruisers.....a skilled cruiser player can burn out a Battleship or torp them. Cruisers are not a hard counter to Destroyers. So by your logic Cruisers should be able to spot Destroyers at a much greater distance and be able to spot their torpedos the moment they are launched and their radar should have 15k range to effectively hard counter Destroyers.

 

I am so sick of the It's too hard I need buffs posts. Quit crying and get better.

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46 minutes ago, Zarenno said:

I would have to disagree with you on many points here sir, because I believe the battleship class has a lot of counters in the game already as it is. 
Battleship counters: 

-Other BBs
-Cruiser HE Spam/torps
-DD torps/HE spam
-BB - Slow & Turn wide
-CVs
-Run Away Meta

I believe that they should limit the dds per game to 3 in my opinion. I feel that four is a good start because a team with even 1 good destroyer can change the way the battleships push into or around caps. I love to play the IJN destroyer Shimakaze and my favorite match is one where I am either 1 of 3 or less dds in that game. I feel that when there are 5 dds it makes the teams to scared to make a push and depending on the dds it could change how I try to take caps. Having a lot of DDs also makes the overall HP pool the the teams lower and a lot harder for me to get good damage. 

Have you heard about the Asashio? That thing is the bane of battleships. Check out this review by LittleWhiteMouse: 
http://shipcomrade.com/news/410/all-of-your-worst-nightmares-realized.html
This may be the answer you were looking for all along. 

So I am going to address some of these replies one sep. post at a time.

The above is a blatant example if BB bias, and a result of Wargaming catering to BBs.

-Every class can "soft" counter itself
-Cruiser HE spam is NOT a counter. 1v1 a BB can delete a cruiser in a fraction of the time cruiser HE can even take away 25% hp. There are also something called anti fire builds, there isn't any "anti BB AP" build.
-DD torps are easy to evade, and more dangerous to cruisers because of engagement range. Torp detection builds and tools exist in plenty.
-DD HE?  Your troll is showing.
-CVs soft counter everyone
-a whole lot of subjective

Unfortunately you shot yourself in the foot being for a DD limitation and not a BB limitation.

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38 minutes ago, The_first_harbinger said:

Wait wait wait wait wait...what?

-Ok, I get it, you miss the old IJN ultra stealth battleship deleting laser. But are you sure? Tier 6-7 battles are fun because battleships can, should, and wants to push and brawl, and now you want every torpedo to be a no counter, zero warning no brainer tool? And not just for IJN, but every destroyer?

-Homing torpedoes? This is just making me angry -- it makes no sense. The ships that will be punished the hardest would be the slow 21kts USN battleships that are already the victims of continual power creep. Plus it just destroys player skill factor: A tomato can now delete battleships just like a Unicum that predicts the battleships' movement and blind drops based on minimap...

-Do we not have enough gimmicks already? And can we have an Alabama refund if this ever came true?

-Imagine your wish came true, nobody will play battleships anymore, because like you said, there is no counter. No matter how much effort one may put in, how much practice, how much awareness a battleship Unicom has, he will be destroyed by 16km 72kts invisible homing torpedoes that ignores their torpedo protection... What's next? Who will be there to hold the line? Who shall lead an offensive? Who will be there for you to farm damage and make your little end game result prettier?

Nice logical fallacies. Straw man, Red herring, ad hominem. Your argument was self-defeated.

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34 minutes ago, Slimeball91 said:

I posted on another thread but its more fitting here.  We won't see a BB soft cap because its not really possible without longer queue times with the BB overpopulation.  DDs are the least played ship type so a soft can is pretty easy to pull off.  It makes me believe MM was weighted (to some extent) to make DD heavy matches, and now that's being adjusted.

This doesn't make any sense to me. One way to regulate an over-population of a certain ship type, if you refuse to balance them which would naturally have the desired effect, is to limit it through MM.
The extended que times for BB players will, in effect, make them play something else.

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33 minutes ago, Cobraclutch said:

The biggest counter to BB's is other BB's AP plain and simple. Its the damage type they take the most damage from. 

Torpedoes are the least amount of damage taken by BB's, which says a lot considering they are meant to counter them. 

Which is completely contradictory to the "rock-paper-scissors" design that even Wargaming has made claim, in their own words, that this game is.

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5 minutes ago, SkaerKrow said:

Battleships have more hard counters than any other class in the game. The only things that don’t exist to specifically hose battleships are hydro, radar, fighters, and defensive AA. If you can’t find a way to deal with battleships given all of the tools that are already present in the game, then you’re the problem, not your ship.

Learn what the definition of hard counter is before using terminology you don't understand.

Battleships currently do not have any hard counter. Additionally, there is no single tool in the game that has increased effectiveness against BBs over any other ship type, save for Asashio torps... and said specifics are forced.

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5 minutes ago, Belthorian said:

I swear some Destroyer players will not be happy until they can get within  .2 kilometers and fire torpedos that cannot be detected. NEWSFLASH a highly skilled DD player will hard counter a highly skilled Battleship player every time. If you are not a hard counter against a battleship than you need to get better.  Here is a second NEWSFLASH Battleships are not a hard counter to Cruisers.....a skilled cruiser player can burn out a Battleship or torp them. Cruisers are not a hard counter to Destroyers. So by your logic Cruisers should be able to spot Destroyers at a much greater distance and be able to spot their torpedos the moment they are launched and their radar should have 15k range to effectively hard counter Destroyers.

 

I am so sick of the It's too hard I need buffs posts. Quit crying and get better.

Straw man, hyperbole, red herring, ad hominem. Self defeated argument.

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1 minute ago, zarth12 said:

So I am going to address some of these replies one sep. post at a time.

The above is a blatant example if BB bias, and a result of Wargaming catering to BBs.

-Every class can "soft" counter itself
-Cruiser HE spam is NOT a counter. 1v1 a BB can delete a cruiser in a fraction of the time cruiser HE can even take away 25% hp. There are also something called anti fire builds, there isn't any "anti BB AP" build.
-DD torps are easy to evade, and more dangerous to cruisers because of engagement range. Torp detection builds and tools exist in plenty.
-DD HE?  Your troll is showing.
-CVs soft counter everyone
-a whole lot of subjective

Unfortunately you shot yourself in the foot being for a DD limitation and not a BB limitation.

You are wrong about pretty much everything you said. First Cruiser HE and AP are counters. True a Battleship can delete an UNSKILLED cruiser player. However, skilled cruiser players almost never get deleted. Try playing a Battleship that runs into a Minotaur and watch 1/2 to 3/4 of your health go away before you can get out of range. Anti Fire builds are pretty much WORTHLESS. I don't use them and you know how many times I have had 4 fires on a ship in nearly 5k battles. Once or twice. In a lot of games, I will lose 60-70% of my health from fires because of cruisers HE spam. DD torps are easy to evade.......only when fired from crappy players. I have encountered skilled destroyer players who make it IMPOSSIBLE to evade their torps....if your torps are getting evaded all the time....get better.

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