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Estimated_Prophet

Made in German vs Made in French...

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German battleships are apparently these awesome brawlers; yet I can't seem to make myself do so with them; nor have I been very successful at brawling when pushing deliberately to do so.

When I received Normandie in the advanced release missions, something I read somewhere recommended a full secondary build, so that's what I did; skills and modules...

...ever since, I've had no problem with brawling in Normandie; and if anything; actively seek out the oportunies to do so, despite also having read that the French battleships aren't excatly suited for such because of somewhat light amor, compared to the German brawler kings.

I like the speed; manuverablity seems good, and there's plenty of secondaries.

Compared to a ship like Bismark, (which I don't really like very much,) Normandie seems a breeze to use and brawl with. (For the record; I like Bayern; Normandie's contemporary; but can't make myself brawl with it...)

Oh well... c'est la vie in WoWs...

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In Tier IX-X, the two lines are brawlers, IMO, they just have different specializations.

 

Both have secondaries far superior to Non French, Non German BBs.

Both of their penetration tables in the upper tiers emphasize 14km or less engagements.

 

Where they diverge is offense vs defense.

German BBs are still IMO, the most forgiving BBs in the game thanks to their turtlebacks.  Dumb mistakes you make in other BB Lines would get you rekt, while in a German BB, you'll eat a bunch of pens at worst.

French BBs don't have those same level of citadel protection, safety as German ones, but you get more consistent guns.

 

Seriously, if one has put good time in German BBs, you'd feel at home in Alsace, Republique.  Richelieu is her own bag, i.e. "Super Dunkeke," and Lyon is her own thing also.  Definitely would not brawl using Lyon and that squishy protection.  But at the very least, Alsace fixes a big problem Brawling German BB players have had with a number of the high tier German ones... Inconsistent guns.  Alsace has great secondaries competitive with Ze Germans, but her guns are nice.  If you had to gun duel at say, 15km, 16km with Bismarck, FDG, you'd say you're in trouble.  Not so with Alsace.  And you can still have your Mega Secondaries.

Edited by HazeGrayUnderway
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16 minutes ago, HazeGrayUnderway said:

In Tier IX-X, the two lines are brawlers, IMO, they just have different specializations.

 

Both have secondaries far superior to Non French, Non German BBs.

Both of their penetration tables in the upper tiers emphasize 14km or less engagements.

 

Where they diverge is offense vs defense.

German BBs are still IMO, the most forgiving BBs in the game thanks to their turtlebacks.  Dumb mistakes you make in other BB Lines would get you rekt, while in a German BB, you'll eat a bunch of pens at worst.

French BBs don't have those same level of citadel protection, safety as German ones, but you get more consistent guns.

 

Seriously, if one has put good time in German BBs, you'd feel at home in Alsace, Republique.  Richelieu is her own bag, i.e. "Super Dunkeke," and Lyon is her own thing also.  Definitely would not brawl using Lyon and that squishy protection.  But at the very least, Alsace fixes a big problem Brawling German BB players have had with a number of the high tier German ones... Inconsistent guns.  Alsace has great secondaries competitive with Ze Germans, but her guns are nice.  If you had to gun duel at say, 15km, 16km with Bismarck, FDG, you'd say you're in trouble.  Not so with Alsace.  And you can still have your Mega Secondaries.

I find that Lyon is a good brawler. She sports the same 7.6km range as Scharn/Gnies as well as a decent number of secondaries. Plus at close range those 16 guns become far more dangerous.

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That's mid-tier vs high-tier meta for you.

It's relatively safe to push hard and get close in low/mid-tiers, the long-range meta of high-tiers however, heavily punishes anyone who leaves the pack in the first half of the game.

So the brawlers in general, but Germans especially with their low rifle count and dismal accuracy, are really screwed over by the meta and no matter how much anyone complains about it, WG doesn't seem to be willing to address it. If anything, they're further reinforcing the meta with idiotic experiments like the Asashio.

Edited by yacskn
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45 minutes ago, Estimated_Prophet said:

German battleships are apparently these awesome brawlers; yet I can't seem to make myself do so with them; nor have I been very successful at brawling when pushing deliberately to do so.

When I received Normandie in the advanced release missions, something I read somewhere recommended a full secondary build, so that's what I did; skills and modules...

...ever since, I've had no problem with brawling in Normandie; and if anything; actively seek out the oportunies to do so, despite also having read that the French battleships aren't excatly suited for such because of somewhat light amor, compared to the German brawler kings.

I like the speed; manuverablity seems good, and there's plenty of secondaries.

Compared to a ship like Bismark, (which I don't really like very much,) Normandie seems a breeze to use and brawl with. (For the record; I like Bayern; Normandie's contemporary; but can't make myself brawl with it...)

Oh well... c'est la vie in WoWs...

French BBs are a lot of things but they are NOT brawlers. Huge citadels and thin belt armor basically means whatever doesnt insta-delete you from shots to the citadel, will eventually burn you down with secondaries.

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50 minutes ago, Estimated_Prophet said:

German battleships are apparently these awesome brawlers; yet I can't seem to make myself do so with them; nor have I been very successful at brawling when pushing deliberately to do so.

When I received Normandie in the advanced release missions, something I read somewhere recommended a full secondary build, so that's what I did; skills and modules...

...ever since, I've had no problem with brawling in Normandie; and if anything; actively seek out the oportunies to do so, despite also having read that the French battleships aren't excatly suited for such because of somewhat light amor, compared to the German brawler kings.

I like the speed; manuverablity seems good, and there's plenty of secondaries.

Compared to a ship like Bismark, (which I don't really like very much,) Normandie seems a breeze to use and brawl with. (For the record; I like Bayern; Normandie's contemporary; but can't make myself brawl with it...)

Oh well... c'est la vie in WoWs...

It could be that German Battleships have that child-proof armor and derp guns that somewhat lowers their skill ceiling that lowers their potential for a player like you with 14k+ battles.  Something I noticed in my 2nd ever match with the Bretagne was that I scored more damage that I usually get, even at tier 8 with German Battleships.  The French Battleships seem to have been balanced with a higher skill ceiling because of their low durability and lack of heavy firepower which is probably why you seem to enjoy them more.

 

Spoiler

3uIHawX.jpg

 

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I think there are two main reasons for the disparity: Speed and accuracy. Both lines are good brawlers, yes, but in differing ways. German BBs seem to be more "Stone Wall" style, they hit pretty hard and they're tough nuts to crack, nothing more, nothing less. French BBs though are more "Lightning Bruiser", they can out maneuver and outposition their opponents to bring all their guns to bear, and remember how they have decent accuracy at range? That's multiplied up close, now it's not only that you're hitting consistently, but you can hit weak spots reliably too. Bring that 12 gun salute to aim at the waterline and watch the citadel ribbons come in. Plus if I'm not mistaken Normandie has AP secondaries, but I could be getting her mixed up with Nagato in that regard.

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19 minutes ago, Landsraad said:

I think there are two main reasons for the disparity: Speed and accuracy. Both lines are good brawlers, yes, but in differing ways. German BBs seem to be more "Stone Wall" style, they hit pretty hard and they're tough nuts to crack, nothing more, nothing less. French BBs though are more "Lightning Bruiser", they can out maneuver and outposition their opponents to bring all their guns to bear, and remember how they have decent accuracy at range? That's multiplied up close, now it's not only that you're hitting consistently, but you can hit weak spots reliably too. Bring that 12 gun salute to aim at the waterline and watch the citadel ribbons come in. Plus if I'm not mistaken Normandie has AP secondaries, but I could be getting her mixed up with Nagato in that regard.

Yeah, Normandie is like the Fuso, only with more speed and less armor.  Fuso's armor was already thin so Normandie doesn't really suffer from less armor, but the extra speed is very useful in carrying matches.  That said, I've rarely scored citadel hits in the French Battleships against other Battleships.  Normally I'm dealing a lot of penetration hits that result in a massive alpha damage role.

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6 minutes ago, Sventex said:

Yeah, Normandie is like the Fuso, only with more speed and less armor.  Fuso's armor was already thin so Normandie doesn't really suffer from less armor, but the extra speed is very useful in carrying matches.  That said, I've rarely scored citadel hits in the French Battleships against other Battleships.  Normally I'm dealing a lot of penetration hits that result in a massive alpha damage role.

Both of your comments seem to express quite well how I feel about Normandie, if perhaps not the whole French BB line; (I don't have Lyon yet...)

If nothing else; The first or second time I used Normandie in Killer Whale, I wound up in a big brawl with the northern reinforcement groups and forts...

...wound up with over THREE-HUNDRED secondary hits. Just an Op, yeah, and just bots; but it's hard not to dislike a ship that gave me the highest number of hits from secondaries I've ever had in ANY mode! :cap_rambo:

Edited by Estimated_Prophet

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12 minutes ago, Estimated_Prophet said:

Both of you seem to express how I feel about Normandie, if perhaps not the whole French BB line; (I don't have Lyon yet...)

If nothing else; The first or second time I used Normandie in Killer Whale, I wound up in a big brawl with the northern reinforcement groups and forts,,,

...wound up with over THREE-HUNDRED secondary hits. Just an Op, yeah, and just bots; but it's hard not to dislike a ship that gave me the highest number of hits from secondaries I've ever had in ANY mode! :cap_rambo:

To be honest, I found the Lyons a bit more difficult to carry in.  It's slower then the Normandie, has slow turrets, and the unfriendly gun arcs force you to sail at an awkward angle of where you actually need to go if you want your guns in action.  I constantly found myself out of position in the end game because I couldn't afford to reduce my firepower by 75% to get to where I needed to go.  It can absolutely erase any cruiser or guarantee a hit on a DD, but it's much harder to helm it in a way to get it to brawl.

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Whats this about German turtleback armor? French also have turtleback armor. The real issue is the deck armor is weaker on the French so they eat a lot of He. Secondaries actually feel superior to me on French BBs t9/t10 compared to german as well. 

 

T8 Richelieu actually has stronger belt armor than the Tirptiz. Now T7 is a different story though.

Edited by EpicFlails

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1 hour ago, Spieges said:

I find that Lyon is a good brawler. She sports the same 7.6km range as Scharn/Gnies as well as a decent number of secondaries. Plus at close range those 16 guns become far more dangerous.

She has the secondaries range but her armor, protection is worse than Tier V Bretagne, and Bretagne has worse protection than New York :Smile_teethhappy:

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The Lyon is very challenging to brawl in. She's got a ton of guns but her armor is inconsistent at best. The accuracy of the main battery is astonishingly bad, but you'll never feel comfortable getting in under 12-13km to make them work better. That said, I kinda like her, especially when you get a broadside cruiser and make them suffer.

Edited by RagingxMarmoset

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After trying both République and Kurfust I feel like French secondaries start more fire than German. République is a decent brawnler but her broadside power isn't that great when you compare it to Kurfust 12 guns.

 

Brawling with French seems pretty situational, I mean it's not the first thing I would do in my République the ship has good accuracy and AP / HE performance. Why would I get close to a target if I can deal 12k volley while remaining angled and not take much damage ?

 

But I agree about Normandie. Her armor seems ok, the only real thing that bother me is her AA but the rest is actually good for her tier. Guns seems quite accurate and speed is just great for T6. 

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German BBs are better brawlers. French BBs are better at flanking and getting into brawls. German BBs have better penetrating secondaries and more of them. French BB secondaries have slightly better range and better fire chance.

Personally, while I have my German BBs specced for secondaries and up close brawling, I'm going AFT and concealment on my French captains. I don't want to play those as brutes. I just want to ninja around the map and cause a panic when a battleship shows up to their side instead of where they expect it to be.

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14 hours ago, Estimated_Prophet said:

...wound up with over THREE-HUNDRED secondary hits. Just an Op, yeah, and just bots; but it's hard not to dislike a ship that gave me the highest number of hits from secondaries I've ever had in ANY mode! :cap_rambo:

You've obviously never taken a Bismarck with a secondary build into co-op and Leeroy Jenkins'd it into the middle of the map. Fun times!

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1 minute ago, Wye_So_Serious said:

You've obviously never taken a Bismarck with a secondary build into co-op and Leeroy Jenkins'd it into the middle of the map. Fun times!

Have you tried Alsace?  She gets ridiculous.  I've had 570 Secondary Hits in a Random match with her.

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2 minutes ago, HazeGrayUnderway said:

Have you tried Alsace?  She gets ridiculous.  I've had 570 Secondary Hits in a Random match with her.

Not yet - now I'm interested. Thanks for the idea!

Edit: BTW me in a BB in a random battle is an appalling display of incompetence.

Edited by Wye_So_Serious

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I haven't played the high tier French BB's. I do have a 2nd spec FDG, and while fun, its not an optimal build. I do wonder if the T9/10 French BB's can actually make use of 2nd,  instead of increased survivability. 

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3 hours ago, Wye_So_Serious said:

Not yet - now I'm interested. Thanks for the idea!

Edit: BTW me in a BB in a random battle is an appalling display of incompetence.

Try Alsace in co-op with secondaries build.  It gets comedic as the hits just pile up easily.  Just CTRL+LMB on a target and you can cut your nails while the secondaries kill the target.

 

If you do Alsace for co-op, you won't have the build concerns an IFHE Secondaries Build has for PVP.  For maximum Alsace brand of French comedy try:

BFT+AFT+Manual Secondaries+IFHE.  CE is of zero concern in Co-op like it is in PVP where it's highly desired.

Make sure you got upgrades SBM2 & 3 involved.

Bring some alcohol.

Log in to battle and drink while the secondaries go to town.  Feel free to fire the Main Battery on occasion.

 

You can do it without IFHE if you so desire, but you will find the secondary shells will do 0 or some absurd number of shell damage against BB threats as their superstructures are too thick.  IFHE lets the 100mm secondaries penetrate 19mm superstructures of BBs.  The secondaries will then be able to do shell damage AND set fires.

Edited by HazeGrayUnderway
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21 hours ago, Spieges said:

I find that Lyon is a good brawler. She sports the same 7.6km range as Scharn/Gnies as well as a decent number of secondaries. Plus at close range those 16 guns become far more dangerous.

  I like a good brawl in my Lyon, too.   The only thing that really holds it back is that glacial turret traverse.   But man, do those secondaries open up and bombard things when you close range!!  Some days it's like having your own built-in Atlanta.

  I've been playing my Dunkin more often lately- just to get used to playing an all forward armament ship- so I don't just fall on my face when I get Richie.    Tier 8 Ranked beckons, and I'd like to be able to use it confident that I can hold my own in it.

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