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TheLastReaper

Torpedo Acceleration for IJN DDs

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What is general opinion about TA on IJN DDs?

Specifically for tiers 6-8; where you get those 10km base range torps.

Is the opinion for those different than fir the tiers IX and X?

Edited by TheLastReaper

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15 minutes ago, TheLastReaper said:

What is general opinion about TA on IJN DDs?

Specifically for tiers 6-8; where you get those 10km base range torps.

Is the opinion for those different than fir the tiers IX and X?

For me personally it is not worth it. You only get 10km ranged torpedoes, reducing their range will net you less hits than increasing their speed by few knots. TA was only worth on old type93mod3 torpedoes that had 15km range and 67 knots of speed, so you would get 12km and 72 knot torpedoes or the old 20km torpedoes that would reduce to 16 km and 72 knots, but they used to have decent concealment.

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8 minutes ago, Vaitmana said:

For me personally it is not worth it. You only get 10km ranged torpedoes, reducing their range will net you less hits than increasing their speed by few knots. TA was only worth on old type93mod3 torpedoes that had 15km range and 67 knots of speed, so you would get 12km and 72 knot torpedoes or the old 20km torpedoes that would reduce to 16 km and 72 knots, but they used to have decent concealment.

Or Asashio.  20 km torpedoes, accelerated come out at 16km...

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I'm not a fan of it on any of the IJN DD's. It starts to look appealing from tier 6 and up,  then you run into radar cruisers and being able to launch at the edge of radar range starts getting useful. The only exception for me is on the Shimakaze, using the stock Type 93 torpedoes. it takes you from 20km and 62kts to 16km and 67kts, but retains the horrid detection (you don't need or want a 20km range, too much a chance of friendly fire from torps you launched a decade ago.). On the Shimakaze, you're better off with the Type 93 Mod 3's, with 12kms and 67kts with better detection and save yourself the skill points.

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2 minutes ago, mavfin87 said:

Or Asashio.  20 km torpedoes, accelerated come out at 16km...

Asashio might be the exception, but she is a premium. I would run TA on her, 20km is not necessary.

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25 minutes ago, Vaitmana said:

Asashio might be the exception, but she is a premium. I would run TA on her, 20km is not necessary.

My only problem with that is, she'd need her own specialized captain, I couldn't toss my Shimakaze captain in her for lols, and I wouldn't want my other IJN DD captains to get the skill, because it would screw them up for their own boats.

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2 hours ago, SgtBeltfed said:

My only problem with that is, she'd need her own specialized captain, I couldn't toss my Shimakaze captain in her for lols, and I wouldn't want my other IJN DD captains to get the skill, because it would screw them up for their own boats.

just put one of those schoolgirls as your captain. problem solved

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Wow well it seems the universal opinion is that Torpedoa Acceleration is not the way to go on IJN DDs generally.

Which hits me hard  because I'm being essentially told I have been doing my Fubuki, Akatsuki, and Hatsuharu grinds wrong with my TA Captain.

I did so based on the belief that faster torpedoes fired from a shorter range are much more likely to hit their mark. 10km range is nice, but spending entire games at 10 kms hoping for lucky hits with the the easiest to dodge IJN torps didn't sound ideal. I also do more up closer for my team spotting, and I'm not an IJN DD afraid to use my guns. In a way I just figured TA forced better play from me while making my Torpedo salvos deadlier.

I admit the problem with TA is that what you have essentially at tiers 6,7 IJN are German torps that hit  3k harder but get spotted .2 km farther.

But being that the common complaint with IJN DDs is that torps get spotted and can be dodged even when aimed well; isn't TA the only way around that?

I guess in my philosophy a DD that sits at 10 km (or 20Km in later tiers) and spams the easiest to dodge torps in the game is equivalent to the BB who is sniping in the back and humping the corner of the map.

Edited by TheLastReaper

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Depending on the ship / situation I find that 9km torps at a minimum are what I am comfortable with. I don't have any ships w/ TA except CVs and probably the only ship I would consider it on is Gearing, maybe Shima (neither of which I own). For the most part I dont think the slight bump in extra speed is worth the massive drop in range. 

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It's fun to accidentally play the Kami with TA.

Where "fun" ==> intensely nearing death every time you want to torp.

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I use TA, 8km 72kts on Kagero has netted some good results for me.  Its not for everyone though. :cap_tea:

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I see no point in picking TA. The cost is too high. And it doesn't affect the main problem which is the detection range of the torpedoes.

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1 hour ago, TheLastReaper said:

Wow well it seems the universal opinion is that Torpedoa Acceleration is not the way to go on IJN DDs generally.

Which hits me hard  because I'm being essentially told I have been doing my Fubuki, Akatsuki, and Hatsuharu grinds wrong with my TA Captain.

I did so based on the belief that faster torpedoes fired from a shorter range are much more likely to hit their mark. 10km range is nice, but spending entire games at 10 kms hoping for lucky hits with the the easiest to dodge IJN torps didn't sound ideal. I also do more up closer for my team spotting, and I'm not an IJN DD afraid to use my guns. In a way I just figured TA forced better play from me while making my Torpedo salvos deadlier.

I admit the problem with TA is that what you have essentially at tiers 6,7 IJN are German torps that hit  3k harder but get spotted .2 km farther.

But being that the common complaint with IJN DDs is that torps get spotted and can be dodged even when aimed well; isn't TA the only way around that?

I guess in my philosophy a DD that sits at 10 km (or 20Km in later tiers) and spams the easiest to dodge torps in the game is equivalent to the BB who is sniping in the back and humping the corner of the map.

No one tells you to launch from maximum range, I launch shima 12km torps from 7-8km away quite often, but having the option to reach multiple ships is good.

Also, once you reach yugumo, you get F3s for all your high speed short distance needs.

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19 hours ago, TheLastReaper said:

What is general opinion about TA on IJN DDs?

Specifically for tiers 6-8; where you get those 10km base range torps.

Is the opinion for those different than fir the tiers IX and X?

I don't use it at all. I play T5+ and mostly T8/T10. You need the distance especially at higher tiers where the radar is ridiculous.

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6 minutes ago, jason199506 said:

no unless you're speeding your F3 up to 81knots

Actually played shima with those, they are easier to evade than ppl think, just turn away, their range is only 6.4km. But they are damn fun for suicidal runs.

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TA depends both on the ship concealment and torp range AND your playstyle I find. Needless to say you need to maintain at least a roughly 1.5-2km buffer from launch distance & your ships concealment to make it usable. On top of this your ships speed and agility is also important so you can actually swing around and get away in time (such that your target doesn't inadvertantly spot you). Allot of the high tier ijn dds suffer in these last two factors I find such that your window to get in close and away from your target can be difficult if you don't have a little extra range on your torps (this because of the slow speed of the higher tier dds except for the shima and akatsuki). The akatsuki is actually the only ijn dd i use now with TA and that is based more on its great speed rather than its mediocre concealment (which is barely enough in my opinion to use). I use the stock or upgraded torps in the akatsuki interchangably for better concealment with the stock as the smaller damage number is actually pretty marginal, vs increased flooding chance with the upgraded torps (often as not a useless stat anyway). Typically don't use TA on any other ijn dd as it just isn't good enough to warrant the use of the 2 skill points, and the proliferation of radar can really limit you in the higher tiers (hence why the 8km shima torps are just not used that often if at all).

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11 hours ago, TheLastReaper said:

Wow well it seems the universal opinion is that Torpedoa Acceleration is not the way to go on IJN DDs generally.

Which hits me hard  because I'm being essentially told I have been doing my Fubuki, Akatsuki, and Hatsuharu grinds wrong with my TA Captain.

I did so based on the belief that faster torpedoes fired from a shorter range are much more likely to hit their mark. 10km range is nice, but spending entire games at 10 kms hoping for lucky hits with the the easiest to dodge IJN torps didn't sound ideal. I also do more up closer for my team spotting, and I'm not an IJN DD afraid to use my guns. In a way I just figured TA forced better play from me while making my Torpedo salvos deadlier.

I admit the problem with TA is that what you have essentially at tiers 6,7 IJN are German torps that hit  3k harder but get spotted .2 km farther.

But being that the common complaint with IJN DDs is that torps get spotted and can be dodged even when aimed well; isn't TA the only way around that?

I guess in my philosophy a DD that sits at 10 km (or 20Km in later tiers) and spams the easiest to dodge torps in the game is equivalent to the BB who is sniping in the back and humping the corner of the map.

If it works got you, then it is a good choice. 

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18 hours ago, Panzerlin said:

I use TA, 8km 72kts on Kagero has netted some good results for me.  Its not for everyone though. :cap_tea:

The improvement is more likely due to you are forced to get closer. Try pretending you have 8km range with a non-TA build and get closer.

TA is an excuse as compensation for the Great IJN Torp Nerfs. Even with range, any torp with speed above 60kt doesn't benefit much from the extra speed. And the reduction of range makes you travel farther to get into position, thus reduces the number of opportunities for good torp runs.

That said. I still have a special commander for Shimakaze with TA. It effectively gives you a 9.6km F3. :)

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@chewonit Hits the nail on the head.

As TA is a fixed speed increase, the incremental benefit decreases as the base speed of the torpedo increases.

At 60knots, a +5 knots speed increase gives a -8% reaction time decrease for your enemy. For a 65knot torp, that reduction time is -7%.  That might seem significant, but given the incredibly large number of ways torps get detected before they approach their target, it's pretty insignificant.

Thus, the real benefit for increased torpedo speed is a reduction in time-to-target: i.e. the time it takes for the torpedo to travel from your ship to the target's.

You get that reduction in one of two ways: increasing the torpedo speed to reduce the time it takes to travel a certain distance, OR reduce the total distance the torpedo has to travel.

For example (and I'm ignoring the compressed game time here, and using the 1knot = 1km simplification):

A 60 knot torpedo launched 10km away takes 10 minutes to reach target. 

A 65 knot torpedo launched 10km away takes 9.2 minutes to reach target.

A 60 knot torpedo launched 8km away takes 8 minutes to reach target.

A 65 knot torpedo launched 8km away takes 7.4 minutes to reach target.

 

So, you gain MORE benefit by launching closer than getting the extra speed. 

 

Overall, TA really only is a valuable tradeoff when you have significantly excessive range to trade for a noticeable speed bump. That is, it's really best for long-range, slow torpedoes (i.e. 12km+, under 60knots).   The reason is that anything under 10km launch range becomes increasingly life-threatening the further up the tiers you go.

At T6, a 8km range for a ship that has a 7km concealment is barely workable.  At T8, it's borderline suicidal to use an 8km torpedo even with a 5.5km concealment, due to the increased detection methods and much higher lethality of your opponents.

 

So, yeah, I really only think TA is a good tradeoff for the 20km Shima torps, or maybe some of the T8+ USSR "torp" DD line.  The 2 points are far better spent on AR for an IJN DD.

 

 

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Torp accell.  Is only good on the Gearing.   16.5km torp range goes down to 13.5km.    And even then.. the bonus from it is pretty low with so many other skills that would be good to take.

 

IJN DD's should never take it currently,  you want to keep your 10km  - 12km Torp range and "NEVER" use the 20km torps on the Shima.

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20 hours ago, jason199506 said:

no unless you're speeding your F3 up to 81knots

Tried that on Shimakaze, not worth the risk. I can see that working, if there are 2 or 3 Shimakazes in a clan war or tournament setting. It's a great formation breaker. But in random pubs... ehhhhhhhhh

Edited by NeutralState

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I use TA on Gearing not for the increased speed but for the reduced range. I want to lower the chance of overshooting the target and hit a friendly on the other side, which can happen a lot since I like to flank the red fleet. 

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