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Air supremacy... isn't.

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It says it gives your squadrons +1 fighters and bombers- however specific to fighters there's no real advantage given the RNG nature of the aerial combat as well as the fact that it doesn't expand your hangar capacity those slots.

If I'm fighting another Bogue (and I'm talking specifically about tier 4-5 in this thread), for example, my initial fighter squadron has 7 to his 6, but if he ends up shooting mine all down- which, because of the RNG nature of the aerial combat he certainly can and often does- my follow up squadron only has 2 while he would have 3. I haven't had anything extra since I don't have any additional planes. The presumption is that you would have that "extra" aircraft on deck and not in your hangar spaces.

If you're going to get "+1 fighter / bomber" I think you should actually get +1 fighter / bomber- not just moving one from your existing capacity into the initial wave. The captain skill explanation is:

Increases the number of aircraft in each fighter and dive bomber squadron by 1. Does not affect torpedo bomber squadrons or the number of reserve aircraft.

The thing is if this "did not affect the number of reserve aircraft" I should still have 3. The fact that I only get 2 is indeed affecting the number of reserve aircraft. 

If all you're doing is sacrificing a reserve aircraft to move it up to the first squadron then you're not gaining anything. 

 

My opinion only- it's pretty misleading. 

 

Edited by Gascan75

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You are given the advantage of extra power at the point of contact and you can still complain?

I can see your point with the rng in a dogfight, but complaining about fewer reserves?

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5 minutes ago, Gascan75 said:

It says it gives your squadrons +1 fighters and bombers- however specific to fighters there's no real advantage given the RNG nature of the aerial combat as well as the fact that it doesn't expand your hangar capacity those slots.

If I'm fighting another Bogue, for example, my initial fighter squadron has 7 to his 6, but if he ends up shooting mine all down- which, because of the RNG nature of the aerial combat he certainly can and often does- my follow up squadron only has 2 while he would have 3. I haven't had anything extra since I don't have any additional planes. The presumption is that you would have that "extra" aircraft on deck and not in your hangar spaces.

If you're going to get "+1 fighter / bomber" I think you should actually get +1 fighter / bomber- not just moving one from your existing capacity into the initial wave. The captain skill explanation is:

Increases the number of aircraft in each fighter and dive bomber squadron by 1. Does not affect torpedo bomber squadrons or the number of reserve aircraft.

The thing is if this "did not affect the number of reserve aircraft" I should still have 3. The fact that I only get 2 is indeed affecting the number of reserve aircraft. 

If all you're doing is sacrificing a reserve aircraft to move it up to the first squadron then you're not gaining anything. 

 

My opinion only- it's pretty misleading. 

 

Reading and comprehension

No where does it state or imply that your ship gets to carry more aicraft.

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for dogfight I would half to agree with you but having an extra plane in a strafing run can make all the diffrence

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You get extra aircraft on the CV. Look at the total number of aircraft- before and after applying the skill, Air supremacy

You can also gain 1 more reserve  aircraft with another skill/trick, doesn't increase squadron size as AS but the total number of AC goes up +1 . I forget where that is as I rarely play CV's anymore in protest of the US CV AS nerf. It is not listed anywhere but it does happen.

 

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50 minutes ago, Prothall said:

You are given the advantage of extra power at the point of contact and you can still complain?

I can see your point with the rng in a dogfight, but complaining about fewer reserves?

This

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1 hour ago, Prothall said:

You are given the advantage of extra power at the point of contact and you can still complain?

I can see your point with the rng in a dogfight, but complaining about fewer reserves?

You criticize me and yet you have 0 carrier games. Interesting. 

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So the truth becomes a lie because I don't play carriers?

All I play anymore is the Kami R and maybe 10 battles a week,

What do you want to make of that?

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12 minutes ago, Prothall said:

What do you want to make of that?

Not much... but thanks for weighing in.

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If you think that fighter vs fighter engagements are purely RNG and that an extra fighter doesn't help - then I don't know what to tell you.  You should probably review the game mechanics.  That aside, Air Supremacy is such a mandatory skill for all CV captains that it should be removed from the game or integrated into every captain free.

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1 hour ago, Gascan75 said:

You criticize me and yet you have 0 carrier games. Interesting. 

You don't need to be a hardcore CV player to know the issues that you are saying

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Having more fighters on the first wave is a huge advantage. The concept has many names, focus fire, concentrated fire, divide-and-conquer, but the principle is the same: the more units you have in the initial engagement, the highest the chance of winning with minimal losses, which further increases your advantage in the following fights in a snowball effect.  

 

Suppose, for an extreme example, that you and the enemy have both two fighters each, but you have waves of two fighters and the enemy waves of one. On the first fight, you have a large chance of killing his fighter before he kills one of yours, since you have double the attack power. Then on the second fight, you again will very likely win without losses. 

In the end, the enemy lost all their fighters while you lost none, despite you having the same number at the start, just because of the larger concentration of force, something you said made no difference. 

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5 minutes ago, brenok said:

Having more fighters on the first wave is a huge advantage. The concept has many names, focus fire, concentrated fire, divide-and-conquer, but the principle is the same: the more units you have in the initial engagement, the highest the chance of winning with minimal losses, which further increases your advantage in the following fights in a snowball effect.  

 

Suppose, for an extreme example, that you and the enemy have both two fighters each, but you have waves of two fighters and the enemy waves of one. On the first fight, you have a large chance of killing his fighter before he kills one of yours, since you have double the attack power. Then on the second fight, you again will very likely win without losses. 

In the end, the enemy lost all their fighters while you lost none, despite you having the same number at the start, just because of the larger concentration of force, something you said made no difference. 

Going out with one extra doesn't mean much if you follow up with one less. 

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Nothing points out the rigged nature of RNG and MM better than T5 fighters vs fighters. Your 7 plane squadron of fulled modded Wildcats with all the perks and captain skills gets wiped from the sky by an equal or often lesser foe? You WILL lose that game, usually in a blow out. In the same game you will also notice your dive bombers miss more. RNG was set against your team at the start. Sometimes its set for you, sometimes against, sometimes it's even. You have less say in how a game goes that WG would like you to think.

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18 minutes ago, Gascan75 said:

Going out with one extra doesn't mean much if you follow up with one less. 

it certainly does when you multiply the DPS from your strafes.

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19 minutes ago, KalishniKat said:

Nothing points out the rigged nature of RNG and MM better than T5 fighters vs fighters. Your 7 plane squadron of fulled modded Wildcats with all the perks and captain skills gets wiped from the sky by an equal or often lesser foe? You WILL lose that game, usually in a blow out. In the same game you will also notice your dive bombers miss more. RNG was set against your team at the start. Sometimes its set for you, sometimes against, sometimes it's even. You have less say in how a game goes that WG would like you to think.

My tinfoil hat is the same size as yours and it was partly in frustration that I made this thread. 

I also can't figure out how "this major advantage" applies when you can engage a lesser squadron and still lose. If RNg rolls against you you're losing your 7 fighters most of the time and coming back with 2 instead of 3. I'd rather come back with 3 if I'm going to lose anyway. 

I have a few games in the Bogue and do okay with it- but this aspect of air supremacy is frustrating and makes little to no sense while blended with the fact that a fight is literally just clicking a button. There are times I engage while surrounded by friendly ships and still get wiped out by red fighters. That's how you're supposed to win the battle, right? 

Don't even get me started about how [edited]stupid Zuiho is. The game in Zuiho is a balancing act of running away from bogue fighters and trying to cross drop torps while finding somewhere to hide your dive bombers  

this is devolving into more of a rant about cv balance and I apologize for being frustrated like so many others. When I play a cv I want to support my team and get really annoyed when mechanics get in the way.  I guess I should be happy that everyone is impacted by them the same way I am  

 

Edited by Gascan75

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9 minutes ago, crzyhawk said:

it certainly does when you multiply the DPS from your strafes.

Which would matter if I played more than tier 5 carriers. 

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3 minutes ago, Gascan75 said:

Which would matter if I played more than tier 5 carriers. 

Yep. It is a must have captain skill for all CVs tier 6 and above.

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The whole point of Air Supremacy is just to increase the squadron size of your fighters and dive bombers by +1. It should not increase the Hangar size of the CV, in fact adding +1 of each would not even make a difference at all, except at Tier4 +5 where the Hangar capacity is 24-30

 

If your fighters are losing a dog fight vs the same fighters, then you have to take  into account what other plane buffing skills and upgrades you have vs the enemy. Then what ever ship based AA damage both squads are taking damage from or have already taken damage from.

 

With everything being equal, it is a toss up on which squad is going to win. There is no reason why both squads should just simultaneously eliminate the other, though the remaining squad will be severely cut down.

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12 minutes ago, Aiser50 said:

The whole point of Air Supremacy is just to increase the squadron size of your fighters and dive bombers by +1. It should not increase the Hangar size of the CV, in fact adding +1 of each would not even make a difference at all, except at Tier4 +5 where the Hangar capacity is 24-30

 

If your fighters are losing a dog fight vs the same fighters, then you have to take  into account what other plane buffing skills and upgrades you have vs the enemy. Then what ever ship based AA damage both squads are taking damage from or have already taken damage from.

 

With everything being equal, it is a toss up on which squad is going to win. There is no reason why both squads should just simultaneously eliminate the other, though the remaining squad will be severely cut down.

I play tier 4-5 CVs... which is why this matters. Or at least why I'm whining about it. 

 

 But you bring up another point. Can the game take more than one RNG roll into account? If fighters are engaged and doing their point and click dogfight and 2 ships are leaning in with what they can contribute can the game actually take more than one rng instance into account? 

The Game's inability to factor in 2 at once would certainly explain why I still get aircraft wiped off on the curtains like a dirty [edited] in a tinder date that ends up in a hotel when the aircraft combat RNG turns against me and yet I have multiple ships trying to help. 

Edited by Gascan75

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3 hours ago, Gascan75 said:

Going out with one extra doesn't mean much if you follow up with one less. 

I can't believe you quoted my whole post without reading anything I wrote.

You won't follow up with one less because you have the advantage, so you're most likely going you lose less planes than your adversary. That's of course random, so you still have a chance to lose, but you have a higher chance of winning by having the largest wave. 

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4 hours ago, Gascan75 said:

I play tier 4-5 CVs... which is why this matters. Or at least why I'm whining about it. 

Well, if you played CVs above tier 5 you would really need that extra fighter.  All CVs except Saipan get penalized for breaking out of dogfighting lock by losing one fighter, so having one extra fighter means you can have that extra strafe.  An extra strafe can mean a lot in a close game.  That's not even taking into account the strafe damage multiplier, that also matters.  Without strafe mechanics in place, this talent loses most of it's potency, hence your concerns questioning it.

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4 hours ago, Gascan75 said:

I play tier 4-5 CVs... which is why this matters. Or at least why I'm whining about it.

at those tiers its all RNG when fighting another US CV even with that 1 extra plane theres still the chance you can lose all yours and they might have 1 left, when you vs a IJN CV having 7 fighters in the first squad  pretty much shuts down IJN CV.

like cometguy siad tier 6+ is when that skill really comes into play when you have the hanger size to send out a couple squads off 7 planes.

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AS skill is only needed for:

1) Stronger strafes (as already noted).

2) More damage from US DB (esp. T8+ when they get bigge bombs).

Beyond that, in my experience (got all the way up to Haku, stopped at Bogue), AS has little value. It's just to give you a little more favorable RNG, more or less.

It's best understood as an annoying must-have skill, since its RNG isn't consistent.

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