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ausanimal

Hakuryu nerf

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i know with this post a lot off people will hate the idea  but im just curious to see what players think more so the Hakuryu players with the nerf to the midway hanger size, if WG nerfed Hakuryu TB or DB down to tier 8  as WG claims "to balance the two ships" would you see that as a fair nerf seeing as a lot off people are saying the nerf to the midway hanger and keeping its tier 8 TB is fair and balanced.

its not about stats or player skills just the simple question people are happy with the nerf to the midway and keeping it's tier 8 TB so would you say the same if Hakuryu  got the same nerf and its TB or DB dropped to tier 8 to balance the 2?

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It is not about balance. Seriously look at all the ships and how long American Cruiser have been bottom of the pile and zero fixes. It is NOT about balance.

Cirran

P.S. Wont be long before the various WG apologists appear.

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Sure, why not?

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Just now, Cirran said:

It is not about balance. Seriously look at all the ships and how long American Cruiser have been bottom of the pile and zero fixes. It is NOT about balance.

Pensa, NO, Balti and DM got a bunch of buffs a while back...?

 

But we gotta keep the anti-USN meme going right?

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I don't think Midway should have 2 x 6 TB squad, just 1 squad should be enough but change her DB pattern to make them more viable and less RNG.

 

That way Hakuryu would be more torps focus while Midway would be bomb focus. 

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46 minutes ago, AlcatrazNC said:

I don't think Midway should have 2 x 6 TB squad, just 1 squad should be enough but change her DB pattern to make them more viable and less RNG.

 

That way Hakuryu would be more torps focus while Midway would be bomb focus. 

pretty much you want to nerf the midway even more, while were at it lets drop hakuryu DB down to one squad and tier 8 DB

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41 minutes ago, AlcatrazNC said:

I don't think Midway should have 2 x 6 TB squad, just 1 squad should be enough but change her DB pattern to make them more viable and less RNG.

 

That way Hakuryu would be more torps focus while Midway would be bomb focus. 

This is always what it was supposed to be, this and the fact it was too effective is why this setup was removed TWO YEARS AGO. They should fix fighter balance, which has been an issue since alpha and tweak IJN groupings so we have equal fighter strength AS and strike options (aka, Midway gets 3,0,3 and 2,1,3 and Hak get's 3,2,3 and 3,3,3). And, as the above states, finally fix USN's accuracy, maybe a HP buff as well (USN has the same dispersion or worse than IJN, only seems more accurate because it get's 6/7 planes instead of 4/5).

 

Neither of these ships, barring major AA changes, or removing/nerfing DFE skill, should have aircraft below tier, as the down tiering of Midways fighter was effectively negated by DFE skill returning DPS and down chance to basically the same level while giving the USN fighters more ammo. A slight increase in IJN chance to down fighters. And this? Yet again it'll just reverse the issue like previous USN changes and all - suddenly IJN is king, needs to change it's a messed up circle cause they never fix it right. And heres some what I think are simple bloody numbers.

Midway get's 136 aircraft currently with 36 (no AS) in the air meaning it has enough planes to fill groups 3.77 times.

Hak is at 100 planes, 32 in the air, putting it at 3.125.

Midway's nerf, brings it down to around 2.67, a full reload less, having lower tier aircraft to boot. More importantly, Midway currently has .645 more planes than IJN, this change gives IJN .455, putting it pretty close to a literal reversal.

Change Hak, which makes more sense because attrition is an issue for CV's in general, increasing her aircraft count to 120 (a little under) or 121 (a little over) would give her almost the exact same ratio of hanger refills as Midway. Conversely, if they are hell bent on Midway, reducing it's numbers to 112 or 113 has the exact same effect, equalizing it's ratio with Hak. And all it took was a well educated guess of what would be maybe about the same ratio, and just plug in a higher/lower number till it was equal in a calculator - I did it in 5 minutes.

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2 hours ago, Cruiser_Noshiro said:

Pensa, NO, Balti and DM got a bunch of buffs a while back...?

 

But we gotta keep the anti-USN meme going right?

The Pensacola and New Orleans were helped how much by that again? The Ranger and Lexington also got buffed. Should we do a happy dance for them being slightly less garbage?

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27 minutes ago, ausanimal said:

pretty much you want to nerf the midway even more, while were at it lets drop hakuryu DB down to one squad and tier 8 DB

Midway was fine with 1 TB, when it was a tier 10, the bigger issue is that DB's never got HP buffs to counteract all the AA buffs, and that her DB's are too inaccurate, which between that and AA makes them too RNG. Up survivability and make them as accurate as they once were (or maybe not quite that accurate) and anyone that uses DB's right will have no issues. Case in point - I'm not exactly an amazing CV player, but here's a screen cap of my Lex, with HE DB's, shortly after the change - Date 12-14-17, 02:46 AM (I have the replay if further proof is required)

0YgJZmC.jpg

That's LEXINGTON in a tier 8 match, with the current bombs and enraging RNG. Sure, the bombs did just half the alpha of the Torps, 27k vs 52k - however it made up the damage in resulting fires, 58k from fires, just about 31k from floodings. 85000 from DB's, 83000 from TB's. And I have similar, albeit not quite as high, damage games in Essex and Midway where my DB's are matching torp damage. Now let's say maybe with changes, I can get that 27% hit rate more often or maybe even higher, but because Midway, have an extra DB group meaning I'm dropping more, hitting more, and maybe starting more fires.

 

DB's are in act, viable - they just need a bit more accuracy to cut out the RNG a bit, and a buff to HP to cancel out some of the AA buffs that were meant to cancel out Manual TB Drops so they can actually get through and come back better.

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3 minutes ago, WanderingGhost said:

Midway was fine with 1 TB, when it was a tier 10, the bigger issue is that DB's never got HP buffs to counteract all the AA buffs, and that her DB's are too inaccurate, which between that and AA makes them too RNG. Up survivability and make them as accurate as they once were (or maybe not quite that accurate) and anyone that uses DB's right will have no issues. Case in point - I'm not exactly an amazing CV player, but here's a screen cap of my Lex, with HE DB's, shortly after the change - Date 12-14-17, 02:46 AM (I have the replay if further proof is required)

0YgJZmC.jpg

That's LEXINGTON in a tier 8 match, with the current bombs and enraging RNG. Sure, the bombs did just half the alpha of the Torps, 27k vs 52k - however it made up the damage in resulting fires, 58k from fires, just about 31k from floodings. 85000 from DB's, 83000 from TB's. And I have similar, albeit not quite as high, damage games in Essex and Midway where my DB's are matching torp damage. Now let's say maybe with changes, I can get that 27% hit rate more often or maybe even higher, but because Midway, have an extra DB group meaning I'm dropping more, hitting more, and maybe starting more fires.

 

DB's are in act, viable - they just need a bit more accuracy to cut out the RNG a bit, and a buff to HP to cancel out some of the AA buffs that were meant to cancel out Manual TB Drops so they can actually get through and come back better.

the question i asked at the start was that with midway hanger now 96 and its TB tier 8,  im curious to see what players think more so the Hakuryu players with the nerf to the midway hanger size and keeping the tier 8 TB, if WG nerfed Hakuryu TB down to tier 8 or even there DB to tier 8 would they still say its a fair/good nerf like they did with the midway or try and  defend it that Hakuryu shouldn't get a nerf.

WG claiming all these nerfs to midway is to balance it with Hakuryu so if WG claimed the same thing and was going to nerf Hakuryu TB or DB to tier 8 to balance it with midways tier 8 planes, would the same people say its a fair/good nerf or not 

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1 hour ago, ausanimal said:

pretty much you want to nerf the midway even more, while were at it lets drop hakuryu DB down to one squad and tier 8 DB

 

I guess thinking and reading are too hard...

 

If you change drop pattern of DB to make them more less RNG and more skill base, then you wouldn't need 2 x 6 TB. From what I see Midway player kill / damage more ship using AP DB than torps. And if Midway had T10 TB it would make the ship OP. 2 x 6 squadron require less management than 3 x 4 quadron but has the same effectiveness. 

 

In my Hirryu I struggle sometime to make cross drop so giving 1 extra squadron will give me even more work to do but when I manage to do it properly the result is deadly. And back when Bogue used to have 0/1/2 or something like that, I had no issue landing torps using my bomber as a bait to force them turning. 

 

 

Anyway the reply has been said above already 

 

 

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13 minutes ago, AlcatrazNC said:

I guess thinking and reading are too hard...

 

If you change drop pattern of DB to make them more less RNG and more skill base, then you wouldn't need 2 x 6 TB. From what I see Midway player kill / damage more ship using AP DB than torps. And if Midway had T10 TB it would make the ship OP. 2 x 6 squadron require less management than 3 x 4 quadron but has the same effectiveness. 

 

In my Hirryu I struggle sometime to make cross drop so giving 1 extra squadron will give me even more work to do but when I manage to do it properly the result is deadly. And back when Bogue used to have 0/1/2 or something like that, I had no issue landing torps using my bomber as a bait to force them turning. 

 

 

Anyway the reply has been said above already 

the same could be said about the thinking and reading

my question on this post had nothing to do about moving midway TB up to tier 10 but if the people that are happy with the nerf to the hanger and keeping the TB at tier 8, would they say its fair and be happy if WG nerfed hakuryu DB to tier 8

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8 minutes ago, ausanimal said:

the question i asked at the start was that with midway hanger now 96 and its TB tier 8,  im curious to see what players think more so the Hakuryu players with the nerf to the midway hanger size and keeping the tier 8 TB, if WG nerfed Hakuryu TB down to tier 8 or even there DB to tier 8 would they still say its a fair/good nerf like they did with the midway or try and  defend it that Hakuryu shouldn't get a nerf.

WG claiming all these nerfs to midway is to balance it with Hakuryu so if WG claimed the same thing and was going to nerf Hakuryu TB or DB to tier 8 to balance it with midways tier 8 planes, would the same people say its a fair/good nerf or not 

If I understand right answer for me is - no, I would not defend the nerf to tier 8 TB/DB on Hak - but that's because I was against both nerfs to Midway as well. The ONLY justification for it on Midway, which still does not excuse it on Essex, is the fact they expanded to 2 TB groups with an extremely tight pattern. However, Midway never should have been given back the 2,2,2 setup, as I say in my first post the one I didn't quote you in). It should have, even with these new setups, maintained tier 10 TB's, but had a 2,1,3 setup.

But it all stems back to the same issue Wargaming has failed to address properly for years. USN fighters have always been far too superior to IJN's, even 2-1 USN can win still. And USN AS setups routinely mopped the floor with IJN planes, but DB's were always too inaccurate and AA buffs made them more problematic for damage. However, USN strike could be devastating, but lack of air cover meant they were at the other CV's mercy if it had fighters. Some opted for the balance options we had, however, in that for you were down a squad, and playing with a handicap. IJN of course had issues of it's planes being wiped out, but when they weren't, solid, maybe even too good a damage platform. What we wanted, especially those of us that play both lines, was simple. We wanted parity between fighters, If USN maintained higher HP, making it more resilient overall to AA and number of planes, and the higher ammo, but a nerf to DPS, while IJN received a DPS buff, we'd be fine once it was balanced out in that USN would be tankier, IJN would be more hit and run. But both in such away as to be on equal footing unlike now - WG tried this by nerfing fighter tier, but failed to account that DFE negates the tier change basically. Which meant that that and changes to IJN's group setups, would give both equal but different fighters and AS and strike would match. Which we also wanted USN's strike loadout changed, to the loadouts we have now as a matter of fact (save the 2,2,2), but not as our default only option. It would leave USN down a DB group for a fighter, but would gain us a fighter to protect the TB group and remaining DB group which, as the one in the pic above shows, having the fighter makes a difference (along with a team that sticks together and don't have to babysit). The other thing we wanted was yes, AP bombs were talked about, but because at the time they were at best a pipe dream, and some of us would like to see AP go away at this rate, was that we just needed USN DB's to be a bit more accurate. A bit more accuracy and survivability to get through even some of the worst AA, where as IJN with torps could be the capital ship hunter, cruisers could have been USN's bead and butter, beyond burning a BB down and a better shot at hitting a DD when it was running AS. It stems from the fact Wargaming has at best been incompetent at balancing CV's and using the wrong answers or trying shortcuts that fail instead of really fixing them. 

Nerfing Hak TB/DB to make up for Midway changes they better not implement isn't the answer.

Nerfing Midway to 96 planes isn't the answer, it's balancing fighters right and increasing Hak's plane count to 120/121

The answer wasn't remove tier 9 and 10 fighters, stick us with one setup, and return Midway's 2,2,2 - it was fix fighters and buff USN HE DB's.

The answer to Manual drops was not buff AA - it was fix manual drops

The answer to strafing and manual drops being OP was not remove them from tier 4 and 5, where they are the most OP - it was fix strafing and manual drops.

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3 hours ago, Cruiser_Noshiro said:

Pensa, NO, Balti and DM got a bunch of buffs a while back...?

 

But we gotta keep the anti-USN meme going right?

Well, it does take quite a loooong time for them to do so.

Many USN cruisers and BBs got several buffs to finally be competitive. But they were really underwhelming for a long time.

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Muh Midway!:fish_palm:

They nerfed it for a reason. It had like 9%(!) better winrate than Hakuryu recently on average stats. 

That's obviously a problem. 

Nerfing Hakuryu now would make no sense.

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57 minutes ago, ShinkuHime said:

Muh Midway!:fish_palm:

They nerfed it for a reason. It had like 9%(!) better winrate than Hakuryu recently on average stats. 

That's obviously a problem. 

Nerfing Hakuryu now would make no sense.

i swear some people are missing the very simple basic question maybe i need to do it and more complex, if after a month WG  found that tier 8 TB were no good for the new hanger size thay got shot down to easy by AA and they had the stats to prove it, if they went and announced they were going to drop Hakuryu DB to tier 8 (we know to many people will  complain if midway TB went up in tier) to even out the strike force on both ships would everyone say thats a fine/good nerf like they have with the midway or contradict themselves and say it's unfair

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its not a post off me saying i hope it happens and WG should do it but just if people would claim its fair if WG based on stats dropped hakuryu  DB to tier 8 would they say the same as they did with midway that its a fine/good nerf. im just interested on what people would say, from reddit and putting it on there you can tell with out anyone posting anything that they dont like it or think it would be fair but they jumped and said it was fair when happened to midway?

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2 hours ago, WanderingGhost said:

If I understand right answer for me is - no, I would not defend the nerf to tier 8 TB/DB on Hak - but that's because I was against both nerfs to Midway as well. The ONLY justification for it on Midway, which still does not excuse it on Essex, is the fact they expanded to 2 TB groups with an extremely tight pattern. However, Midway never should have been given back the 2,2,2 setup, as I say in my first post the one I didn't quote you in). It should have, even with these new setups, maintained tier 10 TB's, but had a 2,1,3 setup.

you understood it right and i appreciate your honest answer. i know theres a lot off problems with CV even going back as far as tier 4 to me one thing that could be looked at is lowing the amount off planes in a squad for US so we can get a 2nd fighter squad sooner then tier 9. so thankyou for your answer and you do bring up a lot off good points, with out finding the post someone had the same idea as you but a bit different TB has been IJN CV thing and DB US thing so say when you get to tier 8 the loadouts could be like this IJN 2-2-1 and US CV 2-1-2 based one what there known for, there was more to it in the post but that's the short version

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oh boy, you dont get the point, they nerf the midway for make usn carriers worse vs ijn in all tiers.

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16 minutes ago, HyenaHiena said:

oh boy, you dont get the point, they nerf the midway for make usn carriers worse vs ijn in all tiers.

i know that just wanted to see if WG planned to drop Hakuryu DB to tier 8 would  the IJN CV players and more so Hakuryu players say its fair like they have with the midway or they get upset and start claiming thats its not fare and contradicting themselves

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8 hours ago, ausanimal said:

i know with this post a lot off people will hate the idea  but im just curious to see what players think more so the Hakuryu players with the nerf to the midway hanger size, if WG nerfed Hakuryu TB or DB down to tier 8  as WG claims "to balance the two ships" would you see that as a fair nerf seeing as a lot off people are saying the nerf to the midway hanger and keeping its tier 8 TB is fair and balanced.

its not about stats or player skills just the simple question people are happy with the nerf to the midway and keeping it's tier 8 TB so would you say the same if Hakuryu  got the same nerf and its TB or DB dropped to tier 8 to balance the 2?

And my answer is NO. The only way hak can do his job properly is to torp ships which fits it strike roll well. As for that note THE only way for hak to do dmg is by droping torps since its DBs are inferior to the Midways.  Its a basically a death sentence for hak to nerf its TBs and DB. 

And Also even with midways plane tier being nerfed doesnt mean it is a lot inferior to Hak. I mean the stats on the planes are basically the same as old T10 planes and considering midway has a squad of 6 ( with AS its 7 for fighters and DB) its unlikely that WG will nerf the hak in any angles. Unless they nerf the total squad count and fighter compliment per squad of Midway which will never happen.

 

Ps. I checked your profile and boy you sure play mostly american CVs.  Play more IJN T8+ CVs and you will know what we are saying. Dont just judge it from the American CV perspective.

Edited by KAGA_kaini
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1 hour ago, ausanimal said:

i know that just wanted to see if WG planned to drop Hakuryu DB to tier 8 would  the IJN CV players and more so Hakuryu players say its fair like they have with the midway or they get upset and start claiming thats its not fare and contradicting themselves

Thats not gonna happens.

Also is kind bad ask for that. The best thing is buff midway planes to TX again.

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5 minutes ago, KAGA_kaini said:

And my answer is NO. The only way hak can do his job properly is to torp ships which fits it strike roll well. As for that note THE only way for hak to do dmg is by droping torps since its DBs are inferior to the Midways.  Its a basically a death sentence for hak to nerf its TBs and DB. 

And Also even with midways plane tier being nerfed doesnt mean it is a lot inferior to Hak. I mean the stats on the planes are basically the same as old T10 planes and considering midway has a squad of 6 ( with AS its 7 for fighters and DB) its unlikely that WG will nerf the hak in any angles. Unless they nerf the total squad count and fighter compliment per squad of Midway which will never happen.

i said TB or DB not both and and its not a death sentence giving Midway tier 8 TB with its new hanger, tier 8 planes get melted away with tier 10 ships, this is what i was trying to see on this post it's ok for midway to get all the nerfs its been getting over the last few months, but soon as anyone says anything about a nerf to Hakuryu they try to say no its not fair and bring in about fighters and any reason they can why it shouldnt.

what's fighters got to do with nerfing Hakuryu DB to tier 8 to balance it with midway tier 8 TB, why should midway suffer with craplow tier planes maybe Hakuryu needs a taste off what midway has

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9 minutes ago, HyenaHiena said:

Thats not gonna happens.

Also is kind bad ask for that. The best thing is buff midway planes to TX again.

and we know midway wont get tier 10 planes again IJN CV lovers will cry about and scream that the midway is OP again.

just asking the question hypothetically you start to get idea that IJN CV players will contradict themselves by saying it was fair to give midway a smaller hanger and tier 8 TB but it wont be fair giving Hakuryu tier 8 DB even though the rest off there planes are tier 10

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I wonder if it's a co-incidence that people with anime avatars advocate to keep the Midway as utter trash while preserving the Hak.

Edited by crzyhawk
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