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Marine_Diesel

German 203mm might need a pen buff

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Based on info from EU forums titled 'Armor Penetration Curves', the German 203mm guns are under-performing in Armor penetration.
Many here may still disagree since Hipper's AP is still pretty good. And I agree with that. But the ingame AP shell data may still be wrong.
(IE the shell has more mass, has higher velocity, and is more aerodynamic yet pens less than a shell that's lower in all of those stats)

Indianapolis, New Orleans, actually has better AP performance despite having 118kg shell at 853mps. The German 203mm shell is 122kg at 925mps. Also the German shell is more aerodynamic.

(Unless the info from that forum on this particular matter is incorrect and/or someone can disprove the info from ingame data)
The charts from that forum(Crosses on second chart represent German 203mm guns):

Hipper, Eugen, Roon, Hind pen data.png

New Orleans, Indianapolis Pen data. Hipper, Eugen Comparison.png

Edited by Marine_Diesel

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Nope. They already get the highest damage, it’s a balance thing.  Just learn to switch ammo and or hold your fire until someone is broadside. You can have some epic damage rolls with German AP. I’ve racked up 60k damage in under a minute more than once.

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It might also be that the USN shell is buffed.

The numbers on German 203mm 122kg AP shell look like they have better penetration at 20km, compared to historical too.

http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WNGER_8-60_skc34.php

http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WNUS_8-55_mk9.php

Edited by MrDeaf

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strange I seem to have no problem going through the armor of the Yamato in my Hipper

Edited by skull_122_steel

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4 minutes ago, skull_122_steel said:

strange I seem to have no problem going through the armor of the Yamato in my Hipper

Can’t wait for that reload buff 

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They struggle with angles much more than USN shells, but they are perfectly capable of damaging any broadside.

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It’s balanced.  Good Alpha when ships go broadside but even a slight angle the damage drops.  U just need to know to use both ammo types effectively.  When I first started this game and played cruisers I struggled.  But over time I am averaging over 100k damage easily now with the Hindenburg.  Paired up if u run the reload mod it is a beast when played correctly.  

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I think some of it might also have to do with penetration fall off at range.

One of the few unmentioned benefits of slower flying shells is that they have less velocity falloff at longer ranges. Now I'm not crunching numbers, because that would be math and I hate math, but from what I understand the shell velocities could be playing some sort of a role here.

Also, functionally do German 203mm guns really need better AP? They already have strong AP and for having "weak" HE shells they actually have damned good HE shells too. 

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17 hours ago, Captain_Dorja said:

Also, functionally do German 203mm guns really need better AP? They already have strong AP and for having "weak" HE shells they actually have damned good HE shells too. 

well the KM 203 do more damage than the Russian 220 and the HE on the 203s is nice even if they don't do much damage because they have the most HE pen and they set a reasonable amount of fires

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21 hours ago, MrDeaf said:

It might also be that the USN shell is buffed.

The numbers on German 203mm 122kg AP shell look like they have better penetration at 20km, compared to historical too.


Well according to the data chart that seems to be the case. German shell is more aerodynamic. The chart does confirm that German 203 gains an edge at longer ranges.. I just want correct data on shells. (Even if another shell is balanced to be better the former, fine.) I don't see why ships can't just be balanced with ROF, Alpha dmg, with different HE, lastly down/up tiering though. The 'complex' balancing that's done is nonsensical.

18 hours ago, Captain_Dorja said:

I think some of it might also have to do with penetration fall off at range.

One of the few unmentioned benefits of slower flying shells is that they have less velocity falloff at longer ranges. Now I'm not crunching numbers, because that would be math and I hate math, but from what I understand the shell velocities could be playing some sort of a role here.

Also, functionally do German 203mm guns really need better AP? They already have strong AP and for having "weak" HE shells they actually have damned good HE shells too. 

'Balance'. If WG wants it balanced, they should enter the correct info. Balance the shells that need be by giving them a heavier weight, better aerodynamics or a modernized AP shell(as is done on some ships). That then would be reflected to have greater pen. Simple.
*Functionally German 203mm guns on higher tier Roon and Hindenburg could use corrected buffed pen data.

Also German 203mm doesn't have that 'strong' AP, very good AP but not that strong. According to the charts, USSR has best AP (18cm/22cm.), followed by USN AP, then German 203. German 203 just has excellent alpha dmg, that's it.  (I have no issue with German HE.)

I really like Hipper and Eugen. (Eugen more so) But I prefer 283mm guns anyway. 203mm isn't good enough.
"Also, functionally do German 203mm guns really need better AP?" No, Germany needs more ships with 283mm guns.

Edited by Marine_Diesel

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German cruiser AP has weaker pen for a reason. It's by far the hardest hitting. At longer range, it's unreliable. Up close, it will rip ships apart. Fortunately, many german cruisers have the armor scheme to survive getting into brawling range.

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3 hours ago, Marine_Diesel said:

Well according to the data chart that seems to be the case. German shell is more aerodynamic. The chart does confirm that German 203 gains an edge at longer ranges.. I just want correct data on shells. (Even if another shell is balanced to be better the former, fine.) I don't see why ships can't just be balanced with ROF, Alpha dmg, with different HE, lastly down/up tiering though. The 'complex' balancing that's done is nonsensical.

'Balance'. If WG wants it balanced, they should enter the correct info. Balance the shells that need be by giving them a heavier weight, better aerodynamics or a modernized AP shell(as is done on some ships). That then would be reflected to have greater pen. Simple.
*Functionally German 203mm guns on higher tier Roon and Hindenburg could use corrected buffed pen data.

The data chart is extremely fuzzy, it depends heavily on what sort of armor is being penetrated(FH, but what kind?), the conditions used to establish penetration, any unmentioned details about the trial(some nations conducted trials against angled plates), etc. Just pulling a navweaps page and claiming that this means the game is undervaluing German guns is not sufficient to have an argument.

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10 hours ago, Aetreus said:

The data chart is extremely fuzzy, it depends heavily on what sort of armor is being penetrated(FH, but what kind?), the conditions used to establish penetration, any unmentioned details about the trial(some nations conducted trials against angled plates), etc. Just pulling a navweaps page and claiming that this means the game is undervaluing German guns is not sufficient to have an argument.

the data chart IS the ingame chart supposedly. The shell weight, velocity, and drag constant are ingame values.

Edited by Marine_Diesel

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9 hours ago, Marine_Diesel said:

the data chart IS the ingame chart supposedly. The shell weight, velocity, and drag constant are ingame values.

I'm talking about the navweaps numbers.

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On 4/16/2018 at 1:40 PM, Aetreus said:

I'm talking about the navweaps numbers.

Navweaps data:

20.3 cm/60 (8") SK C/34
APC L/4,4: 269 lbs. (122 kg)
Projectile Length: APC L/4,4: 35.2 in (89.5 cm)
Velocity (All except illumination): 3,035 fps (925 mps)

Armor Penetration with 269 lbs. (122 kg) AP Shell Pz. Spr. Ggr. L/4,4
Distance: 10,400 yards (9,500 m) - Thickness 9.4" (24 cm) of Face-hardened Armor

Elevation: 4.4 degrees, Distance: 10,940 yards (10,000 m), Striking velocity, 1,926 fps (587 mps), Angle of fall: 6.1 degrees

8"/55 (20.3 cm) Marks 9, 10, 11, 13 and 14

AP Mark 19 Mods 1 to 6 - 260 lbs. (118 kg)
Projectile Length: AP Mark 19 - 36.0 in (91.4 cm)
Muzzle Velocity: 2,800 fps (853 mps)

Armor Penetration with AP Shell:
Range: 9,000 yards (8,230 m) - Side Armor: 10.0" (254 mm)

Elevation: 4.8 degrees, Range: 10,000 yards (9,140 m), Striking velocity: 1,800 fps (549 mps), Angle of fall 6.4 degrees.

Edited by Marine_Diesel

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