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Viper101

10 Second Reload is Ridiculous

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So I've been playing the Minekaze a little bit. The 10 second reload on that thing is, as the title says, ridiculous. 

I know the reload is historically accurate, but in my opinion, if it were buffed to 7.5 or even 8 seconds, the ship would not feel as useless.

It may be that I am just so used to the fast firing American 5"/38s on my Benson and Fletcher, but it is painful to have the same reload as some cruisers. 

 

I got nothing to complain about the torpedoes however, as they do hit pretty damn hard (I can say that right?). Obviously an experienced player will dodge torps, but when you can spam them every 40 seconds... It gets difficult. 

 

But the guns.. I really wish they fired just a little bit faster. 

This is, in my opinion, an example of where historically accurate values do not contribute positively to gameplay. 

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I remember watching a battle where there was an Akizuki with less than 30% health. Because he had adrenaline rush, his guns were firing like the Gearing, if not any faster, while in the smoke, remaining undetected. That to me, is ridiculous.

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It's funny when you consider that the Minekaze was shifted to the "gunboat" side of the IJN DD line.

 

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WG is still traumatized over when the Minekaze used to be really good :Smile_sceptic:

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28 minutes ago, Ephemeric said:

I remember watching a battle where there was an Akizuki with less than 30% health. Because he had adrenaline rush, his guns were firing like the Gearing, if not any faster, while in the smoke, remaining undetected. That to me, is ridiculous.

But it feels so Epic when you do it with your Yamamoto captain

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13 minutes ago, pikohan said:

WG is still traumatized over when the Minekaze used to be really good :Smile_sceptic:

But the thing is, she was never good because of her guns. She was borderline OP because of her torpedoes. They nerfed the torps, fine. But I never understood why they nerfed the guns as well. At best, Minekaze guns were "acceptable" at self-defense against other DDs and occasionally gunning down a low health cruiser. She was never a gun boat. Now she might as well not have as guns with the slow reload and battleship level traverse.

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18 minutes ago, pikohan said:

WG is still traumatized over when the Minekaze used to be really good :Smile_sceptic:

^ pretty much that. they're too afraid to give it anything to compensate for removing it's teeth, because it used to be capable of holding it's own in T10 games.

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42 minutes ago, Ephemeric said:

I remember watching a battle where there was an Akizuki with less than 30% health. Because he had adrenaline rush, his guns were firing like the Gearing, if not any faster, while in the smoke, remaining undetected. That to me, is ridiculous.

Honestly, Ephemeric, the entire Adrenaline Rush skill is somewhat ridiculous.  After all, from a realistic PoV (yeah, yeah, I know), gun loaders would increasingly tired as battles wore on, and reload times would decrease.  A ship's peak reload times would be at the start of any battle while the loaders were fresh and presumably well rested.  And thus, even if there was any adrenaline effect going on, the best it could do would be to counter the loader's fatigue to allow them to reload at times something like their normal rested times, not to become superhumanly fast reloaders.

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, GuntherPrein said:

But it feels so Epic when you do it with your Yamamoto captain

That particular person did have the red shell tracers.. might have been using him.

 

55 minutes ago, Crucis said:

Honestly, Ephemeric, the entire Adrenaline Rush skill is somewhat ridiculous.  After all, from a realistic PoV (yeah, yeah, I know), gun loaders would increasingly tired as battles wore on, and reload times would decrease.  A ship's peak reload times would be at the start of any battle while the loaders were fresh and presumably well rested.  And thus, even if there was any adrenaline effect going on, the best it could do would be to counter the loader's fatigue to allow them to reload at times something like their normal rested times, not to become superhumanly fast reloaders.

Probably the concept of "oh damn, we're about to die! Quickly! just slam them in there! No time to argue!"

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1 hour ago, Viper101 said:

So I've been playing the Minekaze a little bit. The 10 second reload on that thing is, as the title says, ridiculous. 

I know the reload is historically accurate, but in my opinion, if it were buffed to 7.5 or even 8 seconds, the ship would not feel as useless.

It may be that I am just so used to the fast firing American 5"/38s on my Benson and Fletcher, but it is painful to have the same reload as some cruisers. 

 

I got nothing to complain about the torpedoes however, as they do hit pretty damn hard (I can say that right?). Obviously an experienced player will dodge torps, but when you can spam them every 40 seconds... It gets difficult. 

 

But the guns.. I really wish they fired just a little bit faster. 

This is, in my opinion, an example of where historically accurate values do not contribute positively to gameplay. 

Then take the AR skill, lose some of your health and problem solved. You be firing a wee bit faster :Smile_teethhappy:

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10 minutes ago, Ephemeric said:

That particular person did have the red shell tracers.. might have been using him.

Red shell tracers are unique to Admiral Yamato.

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yamamoto with AR = some insane DPM on the aki.   now imagine that with the tier 9-10 module for faster reload when the line is finished.....(tho i would probably take the torp or some other module because the guns shoot fast enough. or so i would assume)

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2 hours ago, Viper101 said:

So I've been playing the Minekaze a little bit. The 10 second reload on that thing is, as the title says, ridiculous. 

I know the reload is historically accurate, but in my opinion, if it were buffed to 7.5 or even 8 seconds, the ship would not feel as useless.

It may be that I am just so used to the fast firing American 5"/38s on my Benson and Fletcher, but it is painful to have the same reload as some cruisers. 

I got nothing to complain about the torpedoes however, as they do hit pretty damn hard (I can say that right?). Obviously an experienced player will dodge torps, but when you can spam them every 40 seconds... It gets difficult. 

But the guns.. I really wish they fired just a little bit faster. 

This is, in my opinion, an example of where historically accurate values do not contribute positively to gameplay. 

Viper, the entire point of most IJN DDs is to NOT get into gun duels with enemy DDs, particularly gunboat DDs.  You're supposed to use your superior concealment to sneak away from those gunboat DDs, not shoot at them.  About the only time you could consider shooting at them (when shooting was an option), was if a friendly DD was already engaging said enemy DD and you were supporting the friendly.

 

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11 minutes ago, Crucis said:

Viper, the entire point of most IJN DDs is to NOT get into fair gun duels with enemy DDs, particularly gunboat DDs.  You're supposed to use your superior concealment to sneak away    ambush those gunboat DDs.  About the only time you could consider shooting at them (when shooting was an option), was if a friendly DD was already engaging said enemy DD and you were supporting the friendly.

 

fixed

 

You dont try to pick fair gun fights in any DD.   The IJN DDs excel at kiting while other DDs excel at hunting.  Use your concealment to spot the enemy DDs, and if the opportunity presents itself, kite away while shooting them up.  A Kiting ship has the advantage in a 1v1 fight.  Your gun layout is pretty solid for kiting, while not for hunting.  Your shell arcs are pretty decent as well compared to say the US.  Your effective DPM goes up when they chase you while theirs goes down.  You can also use your superior concealment to spot the enemy DD for your team and let them soften them up or kill them for you.  There are always exceptions to the rule, but the above is a great way to play the IJN DDs overall. 

 

Too many IJN DDs are afraid to use their guns.   I would bet there are some players who bought into the idea that their guns are garbage or unusable, so never attempt to use them.   It would explain why i see so many dumb things happen with IJN DD captains. (some, not most or all)

 

and before someone comes after me saying IJN DDs are not fine.  Some of them are pretty solid.  Others aren't.  I have been for buffing the weaker ones or removing some of the dumber aspects about them.  like 6km stock torps on the fubuki and hat.  shima 20km torps can also be tossed out imo.  make the 12km stock, and remove the grind to buy the other options.   make them free to switch between depending on the play style the user wants to go for. 

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2 hours ago, Frederick_The_Great said:

fixed

You dont try to pick fair gun fights in any DD.   The IJN DDs excel at kiting while other DDs excel at hunting.  Use your concealment to spot the enemy DDs, and if the opportunity presents itself, kite away while shooting them up.  A Kiting ship has the advantage in a 1v1 fight.  Your gun layout is pretty solid for kiting, while not for hunting.  Your shell arcs are pretty decent as well compared to say the US.  Your effective DPM goes up when they chase you while theirs goes down.  You can also use your superior concealment to spot the enemy DD for your team and let them soften them up or kill them for you.  There are always exceptions to the rule, but the above is a great way to play the IJN DDs overall. 

Too many IJN DDs are afraid to use their guns.   I would bet there are some players who bought into the idea that their guns are garbage or unusable, so never attempt to use them.   It would explain why i see so many dumb things happen with IJN DD captains. (some, not most or all) and before someone comes after me saying IJN DDs are not fine.  Some of them are pretty solid.  Others aren't.  I have been for buffing the weaker ones or removing some of the dumber aspects about them.  like 6km stock torps on the fubuki and hat.  shima 20km torps can also be tossed out imo.  make the 12km stock, and remove the grind to buy the other options.   make them free to switch between depending on the play style the user wants to go for. 

I profoundly disagree.  You say that too many IJN DDs are afraid to use their guns.  I think that you're terribly, terribly wrong.  I think that that's the very reason why too many IJN DDs get themselves stupidly killed, because they used their guns the instant they're detected, rather than trying to break off and get undetected ASAP.  Guns are NOT an IJN DD's main weapons (except of course for the Akizuki).  Torpedoes are.

IMO, the only times when using your guns is justifiable are:

A) When you're pretty much alone and catch a badly wounded enemy DD alone as well, there's nothing wrong with finishing him off, particularly if by quickly deleting him removes him from spotting you for his teammates, thus instantly unspotting you.

B) You're going up against another IJN DD, particularly one of a lower tier whom you should have an advantage over.

C) You're near a friendly DD who is in a duel with an enemy DD.  In this situation, as long as the friendly DD has a decent amount of HP remaining and isn't about to die to very healthy enemy DD, you might as well go ahead and assist the friendly DD.  However, if the friendly DD is certain to die in the next handful of seconds to a far, far healthier enemy DD, then opening fire might just get you killed for no return, since the enemy DD will be shooting at you next as well as spotting you for his teammates.

D) You're detected by radar and so far away from being able to get back into concealment or behind an island that escape is impossible. In this situation, you're already toast, so you might as well open fire and do what damage you can, and perhaps try to launch torps, if they're ready.

The job of an IJN DD is NOT to get into stupid  gunfights.  It's to spot the enemy, cap when you can, and above all else, stay alive and keep your torpedoes in play.  They're your main weapons, not your guns!!!

 

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32 minutes ago, Crucis said:

The job of an IJN DD is NOT to get into stupid  gunfights. 

Emphasis on stupid. @Crucis, you need to recognise that @Frederick_The_Great has a point; he is arguing that there is such a thing as a sensible gunfight for an IJN DD captain to get into, but the unspoken subtext is that you need to have a good sense of when this is (and when it isn't).

You are actually in agreement on many things; perhaps you missed the bit about getting friendly ships to soften up the enemy DD and make it more killable? He's just a little more aggressive when it comes to using his gun armament, and ultimately he has to stand or fall in-game on his philsophy and his ability to put shots effectively on target.

I'm not playing IJN destroyers right now - it's something I might get back to after I pick up the Varyag and the cruiser split comes through - but I cannot for the life of me imagine why I shouldn't join in with my guns to assist a fellow destroyer captain who was being harassed. Unlike real ships, the destroyers in this game can only fire at one target at a time, regardless of how many turrets they have, and there is always the possibility that I can break an enemy destroyer's engines or steering or light a fire, and give a suffering friendly DD an opportunity to get away. Gunfire is far safer than torpedoes when you have to fire in the vicinity of your own ships, too.

I'd almost like to see them introduce a complete fantasy line with concept ships based on existing ones and balanced to various tiers. It would be interesting to put in an IJN DD that had had all its gun armament removed, and see exactly who played it and what they could do with it.

Edited by Ensign_Cthulhu

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6 hours ago, Amenhir said:

It's funny when you consider that the Minekaze was shifted to the "gunboat" side of the IJN DD line.

 

Makes sense when you consider Mutsuki is the other choice lol.

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6 hours ago, Ephemeric said:

I remember watching a battle where there was an Akizuki with less than 30% health. Because he had adrenaline rush, his guns were firing like the Gearing, if not any faster, while in the smoke, remaining undetected. That to me, is ridiculous.

Akizuki is already able to fire like a Gearing. Both have a base reload speed of 3 seconds.



Anyway, OP: I would call Minekaze a better Torpedo Boat, than the Mutsuki.

Sure, Minekaze has more guns, giving it an edge over Mutsuki, making it a better gun boat than Mutsuki as well, but the versatility to fire at three different targets (though only 2 torpedoes each) gives Minekaze an edge in her torpedoes as well. Build her up more as a torpedo boat, I personally find her more capable and enjoyable in such a build...

 

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6 hours ago, Ephemeric said:

I remember watching a battle where there was an Akizuki with less than 30% health. Because he had adrenaline rush, his guns were firing like the Gearing, if not any faster, while in the smoke, remaining undetected. That to me, is ridiculous.

Akizuki already shoots as fast as Gearing. No added modifiers required.

6 hours ago, Amenhir said:

It's funny when you consider that the Minekaze was shifted to the "gunboat" side of the IJN DD line.

 

There is no such thing. WG never stated that, we just made it up. It's the alternative line with a gunbote at the end. (Especially now with the two others coming soon™)

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3 hours ago, Frederick_The_Great said:

You can also use your superior concealment to spot the enemy DD for your team and let them kill them for you.

That part is right. 

 

9 minutes ago, Ensign_Cthulhu said:

but I cannot for the life of me imagine why I shouldn't join in with my guns to assist a fellow destroyer captain who was being harassed.

Because if you stay undetected & spot that DD your friendly DD can smoke (not only for himself but the rest of your team behind him) & annihilate that DD. Shooting gets you spotted...& when that red DD you are double teaming smokes then the tables are turned...& you are the 1 that is spotted (especially after your "harassed" teammate stops being harassed because a-he isn't there anymore...or b-because he smoked & now you are the only 1 detected).

Stay undetected & if you cannot safely torp the red DD then torp at his backup while spotting...that's the best you can do for your DD in trouble is make the other DD break off from having to dodge your stealth torps (which lose 90% of their stealthyness once you are a known factor) or take the heat off him from backup fire so he can concentrate on that DD unhindered (& make his backup pay for being target fixated on your "harassed" DD).

The #1 stupidest thing (that I see all the time) is a completely stealthed DD launch it's torps right down the line at an enemy ship & then immediately fire their guns & then start to turn to kite...& somehow not being able to realize that the ship is going to dodge all those torps because they know exactly when & where they were  fired from.

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Minekaze is still a torpedo boat, nevermind she is on the so-called 'gunboat line'

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6 minutes ago, IfYouSeeKhaos said:

The #1 stupidest thing (that I see all the time) is a completely stealthed DD launch it's torps right down the line at an enemy ship & then immediately fire their guns & then start to turn to kite...& somehow not being able to realize that the ship is going to dodge all those torps because they know exactly when & where they were  fired from.

^100% agree. 

I usually hold my fire on my guns in any DD (as long as I'm still unspotted) until the torps have hit, because I want to see if my torp hits started flooding and if the target ship used a DC party to stop it.  I'll try to hold off for the 20 seconds and only then will I open fire (with HE) to try to get a fire started.  But I also care about where the enemy ship's guns are aiming.  If they're aimed to the "other" side, I'll likely open fire, particularly if it's a BB with their slow turning turrets.  OTOH, if it's a cruiser with fairly quick turning turrets, I'm more likely to want to just stay guns silent and let my team mates know that he used a DC party and to HE spam him to get him burning. (Actually, I do this for BBs too, since friendly heavies are more likely to get a fire started than my DD.)

I will say though that sometimes you can use gun fire to draw the enemy into torps rather than cause them to turn.  It's not necessarily a common thing, but if you see inbound torps that seem like they're going to miss (yours or a team mate's), and you think that opening fire on the potential target just might draw him onto those torps, then it might be worth the risk.

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9 minutes ago, Kapitan_Wuff said:

Minekaze is still a torpedo boat, nevermind she is on the so-called 'gunboat line'

Yeah, the so-called gunboat line is anything but.  There's all of one damned gunboat on the "gunboat" line, the Akizuki.

 

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Ah yes, Minekaze. She's a small ship with an identity crisis. She doesn't know whether she's from the days of the old IJN DDs that had excellent torpedoes and terrible guns as a tradeoff, or the new line that has neutered torpedoes AND the bonus of crap guns too. Because IJN DDs cannot have anything nice or competitive. 

~Hunter

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31 minutes ago, Hunter_Steel said:

Ah yes, Minekaze. She's a small ship with an identity crisis. She doesn't know whether she's from the days of the old IJN DDs that had excellent torpedoes and terrible guns as a tradeoff, or the new line that has neutered torpedoes AND the bonus of crap guns too. Because IJN DDs cannot have anything nice or competitive. 

~Hunter

Yeah, I'm glad that I ground out the IJN DD line all the way to the Shimmy before most of the torpedo nerfs.  It's really annoying that the navy whose DDs rely almost entirely on torpedoes get treated like dog crap because the BBaBBies can't friggin' use the WASD keys properly.

Personally, I hardly play any of my IJN DDs any more, except the Akizuki and the HSF Harekaze (with the 100 mm gunned B hull), because the torps are so damned difficult to get hits with at times.  If more IJN DDs were like the B hull Harekaze and had guns that would let them stand toe to toe with other nation's DDs in gun fights, it would make their nerfed torpedoes much easier to put up with because you'd know that you weren't toothless.  That's the nice thing about other nations' DDs that have both good guns and good torps.  If you're having a bad day with your torps and not getting hits, you can still be effective using your guns aggressively for counter-DD work.  And, frankly, the B hull Harekaze feels a lot like a USN DD due to its nice balance between guns and torps.

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