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General_Beauregard

G. Kurfurst vs. Moskva

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Hey guys I am currently working down both the Russian cruiser and German BB line at the same time and almost have the tier 9 Friedrich unlocked and am halfway to the unlocking the tier 9, Dimitri, but want to concentrate on just one line so I can reach tier X faster. I spend equal time playing both BB's and CA's but am torn whether I should work to unlock the Moskva first or the Kurfurst. Any suggestions from people that have both? Which is more fun?

Thanks!

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This isn't apples and oranges, this is spaghetti and socks.

Do you like fires and long range? Moskva.

Do you like brawls and random citadels? Sausage.

The correct answer is obviously Hindenburg.

Edited by X15
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I have both, but I also have plenty other tier 10s... Do you have any other tier 10s?

I personally dislike the Moskva and rather play my Zao or DM over it in Random Battles. I think Moskva is a better choice for CW, but I don't play those (CW hours are awful for me).
Mostly because the Moskva is big and sluggish and a radar that makes you depent on your team, so I rather play a fast firing DM with a long lasting radar to nuke things myself or a Zao because her great concealment, torpedoes and her fire spamming guns.


With the GK you also need a team, but it is okay if they are less good at aiming. I found it more fun with its secondairies and hydro, especially when you lead a push and nuke the enemy team :)
So overall I think the GK is a more unique ship over the Moskva that can have more easily a bigger impact on Random Battles. I also kill quite easily DDs with her, but I don't how this will change in the future (BB AP vs DD).

So if you don't have any tier 10s I would have gone for the GK, but that is just my personal preference. 

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6 hours ago, LemonadeWarrior said:

I have both, but I also have plenty other tier 10s... Do you have any other tier 10s?

I personally dislike the Moskva and rather play my Zao or DM over it in Random Battles. I think Moskva is a better choice for CW, but I don't play those (CW hours are awful for me).
Mostly because the Moskva is big and sluggish and a radar that makes you depent on your team, so I rather play a fast firing DM with a long lasting radar to nuke things myself or a Zao because her great concealment, torpedoes and her fire spamming guns.


With the GK you also need a team, but it is okay if they are less good at aiming. I found it more fun with its secondairies and hydro, especially when you lead a push and nuke the enemy team :)
So overall I think the GK is a more unique ship over the Moskva that can have more easily a bigger impact on Random Battles. I also kill quite easily DDs with her, but I don't how this will change in the future (BB AP vs DD).

So if you don't have any tier 10s I would have gone for the GK, but that is just my personal preference. 

No I don't have any other tier X ships, but after reading your comments Ill work towards the GK first. Thanks for the opinion!

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Moskva is basically the cruiser version of Yamato: Bow on stationary artillery with very powerful guns + radar. Very accurate at long range. Very good armor when angled, but very fragile when showing its side.

GK is the king of brawlers: inaccurate guns (but lots of them), amazing secondaries with enhanced penetration, and the kind of armor scheme that can withstand a withering amount of AP and HE. Sharply angled, it's easily the tankiest ship in the game. Last game in her netted me 3.3 million potential damage received. Sadly died in the final seconds of the game (we still won), so no flags for me.

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On 4/12/2018 at 8:04 PM, X15 said:

This isn't apples and oranges, this is spaghetti and socks.

Do you like fires and long range? Moskva.

Do you like brawls and random citadels? Sausage.

The correct answer is obviously Hindenburg.

Bug Report Titled:  "Hindenburg uses a Cruiser icon and not a Battleship icon."

31 minutes ago, KaptainKaybe said:

Moskva is basically the cruiser version of Yamato: Bow on stationary artillery with very powerful guns + radar. Very accurate at long range. Very good armor when angled, but very fragile when showing its side.

GK is the king of brawlers: inaccurate guns (but lots of them), amazing secondaries with enhanced penetration, and the kind of armor scheme that can withstand a withering amount of AP and HE. Sharply angled, it's easily the tankiest ship in the game. Last game in her netted me 3.3 million potential damage received. Sadly died in the final seconds of the game (we still won), so no flags for me.


Indeed, anyone that catches a Moskva's sides, she's going down Q-U-I-C-K.  She lasts as long as an AP salvo into Minotaur / Neptune sides.  Protect her sides, angle her, and she's annoying a.f. to deal with.  The best is a Moskva tanking multiple BBs enough that the BBs give up and try to look for something else to shoot at.

Edited by HazeGrayUnderway

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On 4/15/2018 at 8:19 PM, HazeGrayUnderway said:

Bug Report Titled:  "Hindenburg uses a Cruiser icon and not a Battleship icon."


Indeed, anyone that catches a Moskva's sides, she's going down Q-U-I-C-K.  She lasts as long as an AP salvo into Minotaur / Neptune sides.  Protect her sides, angle her, and she's annoying a.f. to deal with.  The best is a Moskva tanking multiple BBs enough that the BBs give up and try to look for something else to shoot at.

Though high citadel does make bow citadels annoyingly common even with effective angling 

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On 4/18/2018 at 2:17 PM, 901234 said:

Though high citadel does make bow citadels annoyingly common even with effective angling 

The 25mm bow plating, however, creates a dilemna where if you show your side, you get citadelled, and if you go bow-on, you get citadelled. It's important to wiggle a lot and always keep mobility or else you will be hurt.

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On 4/29/2018 at 9:46 PM, general_D_H_Chun said:

The 25mm bow plating, however, creates a dilemna where if you show your side, you get citadelled, and if you go bow-on, you get citadelled. It's important to wiggle a lot and always keep mobility or else you will be hurt.

[I didn't ask for a tutorial on this, but thanks anyways - also apparently point right at ppl actually works cause shells will typically arm too early and detonate before the citadel]

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Moskva is a better BB than, well, any BB.  

Soviet bias 100% fire chance HE shells? Check.

Soviet bias bow armor that defies physics (even yamato AP shells at close range bounce off)? Check.

AP that has more pen and better damage than Scharnhorst's 11inch AP guns? Check.

Soviet bias citadel sides (unreliable to citadel even on test server on flat broadside zero speed situations..where ANY other nation's cruiser is consistently reliable citadel)? Check.

Soviet bias radar? Check.

Soviet bias physic defying acceleration forward and aft? Check.

Only a Conq can threaten a bow-on Moskva..and that's because its HE is as stupidly OP as Moskva's.

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Moskva is my first tier X but she is not a fun ship, imo

Size and agility of a battleship with worse detection but not the armor. 

Show any broadside to any BB within 20km at any angle and he will shoot at you. Meaning it has to bow on tank with 6 guns or max range spam, only getting close if you can cut off angles to BBs.

 

 

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On 4/15/2018 at 7:48 PM, KaptainKaybe said:

Moskva is basically the cruiser version of Yamato: Bow on stationary artillery with very powerful guns + radar. Very accurate at long range. Very good armor when angled, but very fragile when showing its side.

GK is the king of brawlers: inaccurate guns (but lots of them), amazing secondaries with enhanced penetration, and the kind of armor scheme that can withstand a withering amount of AP and HE. Sharply angled, it's easily the tankiest ship in the game. Last game in her netted me 3.3 million potential damage received. Sadly died in the final seconds of the game (we still won), so no flags for me.

Personally having a Republique and a GK I think they are both interesting brawlers. All things held equal I think a Republique is superior to the GK in a brawl. Fully kitted both will pump out 24 shells in one minute (fascinating even though Republique has fewer barrels). The Republique's armor is absolutely bizarrely strong on the broadside. Perhaps they did that so it could fire the rear turret safely when attacking forwards and showing side. The outer shell is 32 mm. The main armor belt is 400 mm behind that, at the same time it is some of the most steeply angled battleship armor in the game. Backing that plate is 70 mm of supporting plate (which is also very angled). And then the citadel shell that ranges from 30 mm to 50 mm. Assuming the back plate of the main armor belt contributes (don't see why not), you have to go through between 532 to 552 mm of armor to get to her juicy citadel, not including all the crazy angles. Contrast this to the Yamato at 410 mm for the citadel, 440 or so if you hit the lower portion of the citadel armor (the torpedo bulge covers a bit of it). The citadel also sits very low, not as stupidly low as the conqueror and not as low as kurfurst, but low enough. It may not be possible to citadel a kurfurst at close range, but it is goofy hard to get through a Republique's armor to her citadel. It is possible but you need the enemy player to be really bad. Republique's secondaries are also extremely good and unlike kurfurst her AA is nothing to sneeze at either. Both ships will be doing partial damage to each other until one sinks. I think the Republique's rate of fire, 17" barrels, rate of fire, and goofy turret protection will carry her. 

That being said, the Republique is garbage against dd's. Bad dispersion, few shells, low weight of fire. If I were going into a brawl with cruisers and battleships I'd take Republique all day, if there are dd's? I'd rather take Kurfurst with her hydro and the twelve barrels of doom. 

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On 5/4/2018 at 8:29 PM, 901234 said:

[I didn't ask for a tutorial on this, but thanks anyways - also apparently point right at ppl actually works cause shells will typically arm too early and detonate before the citadel]

(I was giving the guy who made the post advice- I can clearly tell you have no issues with cruisers)

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On 5/4/2018 at 11:02 PM, Skyfaller said:

AP that has more pen and better damage than Scharnhorst's 11inch AP guns? Check.

Soviet bias citadel sides (unreliable to citadel even on test server on flat broadside zero speed situations..where ANY other nation's cruiser is consistently reliable citadel)? Check.

Scharnhorst AP deals 7600 dmg / shell where as Moskva deals only 5800

Also aim higher for Moskva citadel - because the lower section acts as kind of an 'anti-turtleback'

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6 minutes ago, 901234 said:

Scharnhorst AP deals 7600 dmg / shell where as Moskva deals only 5800

Also aim higher for Moskva citadel - because the lower section acts as kind of an 'anti-turtleback'

Check the pen on those guns. Also look at the ROF and number of guns. Moskva significantly outdamages the 11 inch BB gun. 

Citadel... hah. Go into training battle and do try it yourself. You'll see the armor of that ship is so bias-pumped up that even yamato shells have a hard time getting citadels. Do also sail into 3km of Moskva, bow-on with a Yamato and fire at it.. just watch what it does to 18inch AP shells. Its vodka powered magic [edited] I tell you. 

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On 5/4/2018 at 11:02 PM, Skyfaller said:

Soviet bias citadel sides (unreliable to citadel even on test server on flat broadside zero speed situations..where ANY other nation's cruiser is consistently reliable citadel)? Check.

 

11 minutes ago, Skyfaller said:

Citadel... hah. Go into training battle and do try it yourself. You'll see the armor of that ship is so bias-pumped up that even yamato shells have a hard time getting citadels. Do also sail into 3km of Moskva, bow-on with a Yamato and fire at it.. just watch what it does to 18inch AP shells. Its vodka powered magic [edited] I tell you. 

Hmm did it change from broadside to bow on? thonk

Also - citadelling while *directly* bow on will be tricky since shells will probably arm too early even if they hit the bow

And yes you can citadel broadside Moskvas :>shot-18_05.07_15_36.52-0213.thumb.jpg.626adb50784d9554a2706a3bb9ac9e81.jpgshot-18_05.07_15_37.53-0201.thumb.jpg.1dc47f509bf3c34fac700cc1494f9fb9.jpg

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Though if you aren't perfectly bow on you open up your athwart-ship to citadels

shot-18_05.07_15_33.16-0955.thumb.jpg.864d141cdf0cde83864098729cdfe753.jpgshot-18_05.07_15_33.20-0827.thumb.jpg.328c66349252f408039ca8a8274e6f13.jpg

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I never said citadels didn't happen. I said they are extremely unreliable. Go ahead and start posting all the zero damage and bounce-off pics you have of same yamato shells hitting the broadside of that ship. No other ship in the game does that, not even BBs. 

It didn't 'go' from bow to broadside. Bow on the ship's armor is stronger than any BB and it is simply not possible for moskva's armor to be invulnerable to yamato AP shells under 10kms... but in this game it is. Broadside you have this ship taking hits to the broadside and citadels are extremely unreliable compared to ANY other cruiser in the game. I point out Yamato shells because at 18 inch, they should literally be IGNORING that ship's armor but in the game the AP hitting the broadside of this ship ends up doing very low damage pens (read that again: pens not overpens.. that tells you something is VERY wonky with this ship's armor), a very rare citadel (you can fire multiple salvos at its citadel on a test server ship and it is hard to get that citadel) or the shells just do zero damage. 

Again, NO. OTHER. CRUISER. LINE. does that. Soviet cruisers tier 9 and 10 however, do this consistently. 

 

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