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Beanlord

Abruzzi Balancing Issue

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It was hinted that the Duca degli Abruzzi will be released this month, but its far from certain.  Discussion is that the Abruzzi is seriously over-tiered, and WG is having issues balancing it.  And they can't place it at tier 6 because the d'Aosta is there (which is also over-tiered).  I think the true way to fix the Abruzzi is to give it the armor it had in real life, but apparently this isn't feasible (Roma had the same issue).  So instead they've been adding gimmicks to the Abruzzi to try and balance it.  I have an alternate solution for WG to consider.

In the discussions, it is typically mentioned that WG will not move a previously released ship to a lower tier.  However, with the Abruzzi, WG may have a unique opportunity.  Since they have two over-tiered ships at consecutive tiers, they can work a deal.  Move the d'Aosta down to tier V  and place the Abruzzi at tier VI.  Then offer to replace the d'Aosta that people had bought previously with the Abruzzi.  Place both the d'Aosta (at tier V) and the Abruzzi (at tier VI) on sale.  Yes WG might lose a few bucks per ship selling them at lower tiers, but I bet they would make that up easily in volume.  I know I'd be interested.  Maybe even offer a two-ship bundle!

And, they can remove some of the gimmicks they had to add to both ships, since they would be easier to balance at the lower tiers.

Edited by Beanlord

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By the way, I'm assuming the premium that can be earned for free will be the Varyag.

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Or maybe they should just consider buffing the gun range on both prem Italian cruisers.  I got the Duca D'Aosta in a santa box this past Christmas.  And while I don't play it much, it's clear that she's at a terrible disadvantage due to her low gun range. even when top tier.  For crying out loud, she's outranged by most if not all TIER FIVE cruisers (perhaps the Marblehead is outranged by her, but by the slimmest of margins)!!!  Seriously, a 14 km gun range at tier 6 is pathetic (which only makes the gun range on the T8 Cleveland shockingly low).  Yes, a good player can make it work, but should it be THAT difficult to make ships "work" in this game, particularly when you pay real money for them, i.e. premium ships?

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buff up the he shell power then there won't be as many issues or make the ap shells do slightly more damage

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8 minutes ago, landedkiller said:

buff up the he shell power then there won't be as many issues or make the ap shells do slightly more damage

It seems to me like their primary problem is their gun range.  If the range was greater, it would enhance their survivability due to a little more time to dodge incoming shells.  Plus, IIRC, weak HE and strong AP is supposed to be an Italian cruiser trait.

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I never had many problems with Duca at tier 6. She is fast and extremely mannouvreable for a cruiser. You need to be able to know when to switch ammo types though.

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Duca d'Aosta is fine at T6, is a good cruiser and deosnt need any buff. 

 

Abruzzi seems fine at T7 after the last changes. 

 

Both are very versatile ships with good sets of cobsumables. Both are fast, with good concealment, meh HE but great AP. Im really looking foward for Abruzzi.

 

 

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Thanks for all your feedback guys. Will bring your suggestions to our team for future consideration! 

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FWIW I like the Duca d’Aosta better than DeGrasse which I like better than La Galissionnaire. Yes, the range should be buffed but other than that she’s fine at Tier 6. It’s a tough Tier for any cruiser really.

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Duca D'Aosta is one of the most desirable ships in competitive. Sure, she lacks range and DPM, but I don't have issues with her survivability. More than half of the cruisers at tier 6 are short ranged:

1.Budyonny: 16,62 km

2.Nurnberg: 16,49 km

3.De Grasse: 16,17 km

4.Graf Spee: 16,01 km

5.La Galissoniere: 15,92 km

6.Pensacola: 15,67 km (Work in Progress)

7.Molotov: 15,49 km

8.Aoba: 14,91 km

9.Cleveland: 14,63 km

10.Dallas: 14,3 km (Work in Progress)

11.Duca D'Aosta: 14,01 km

12.Huang He: 13,18 km

13.Leander: 13,17 km

14.Perth: 12,81 km

Half of the cruisers at tier 6 have less than 15 km range, which is already short range at tier 7 and 8 (almost anyone can land citadels at that distance steadily at those tiers). So the range is not an issue on the ship. The advantage of the ship lies in being a reconnaisance ships, a frontline cruiser in a different fashion than the british sisters.

Edited by hanesco

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On 4/11/2018 at 9:22 AM, Xlap said:

Abruzzi seems fine at T7 after the last changes. 

Both are very versatile ships with good sets of cobsumables. Both are fast, with good concealment, meh HE but great AP. Im really looking foward for Abruzzi.

 

 

The Abruzzi I ran across was...not good, and it wasn't because of the captain.  The ST in question had purple stats and was getting whipped like a bad dog.

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1 hour ago, crzyhawk said:

The Abruzzi I ran across was...not good, and it wasn't because of the captain.  The ST in question had purple stats and was getting whipped like a bad dog.

Keep in mind that STs test several aspects and strategies of a ship, even adverse situations and strstegies. So it could be that. Also, even good players have bad games or make mistakes.

 

So far i ran across two Abruzzis (i sank one of them :Smile_playing:), both did pretty well. 

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The Duca D' Aousta is an under-performer and two extra cannons isn't going to be enough to justify an Abrizzi at T7. I love my Aousta, don't get me wrong here. She can dance. She is a great ship. The problem is that everything that leaves the ship is pure garbage. Garbage HE, garbage AP and garbage torps is a trifecta of disaster. There are not enough captain points in the game to turn that garbage into something marginal either.

The other problem I have is that Italian ships don't feel unique, especially the cruisers. I like the Jack-of-all-trades but master of none thing they have going on, but it doesn't translate into a feeling of uniqueness in any way. What I would do is that the Jack-of-all-trades mentality into the extreme just enough for it to give the player a feel to it.

The Duca D' Aousta and the Abruzzi both have:

acceptable detection

acceptable armor

exceptional maneuverability offset by low DPS and short range of guns.

Wide range of poor consumables.

(Defensive AA fire will mess with Planes dispersion but won't scare the CV player off with casualties.)

(Hydro Acoustic Search will show torpedos for you but the Duca isn't a good DD hunter. Her AP will over pen constantly and her HE is just abysmal.)

(The scout plane is just a slap in the face regarding the poor range of her guns.) (Kinda historic though.)

The Duca's have a lot of options, but none of them are very good ones. It's also a heavy drain on captain points. That is probably the biggest problem with this ship. Everything about these ships is meh but the handling.

There is no Italian feel to these ships that set them apart in any way.  I would like to see that fixed and the ships performance boosted a bit. I would want to do it in as few moves as possible as well. Cruiser secondaries in most cases are more of a novelty than a useful means of DPS. I would make the Italian cruisers an exception to that rule. I would give them above average range and make them more accurate. This does a couple important things. Secondary damage can shore up the Duca's damage deficiency. It also makes them a bit better at fighting off DDs. It makes investments in Fire training skills more valuable. This will also make your Defensive AA fire potent.

Italian cruiser line players will be able to boast of their secondaries.

The Consumables become far more useful.

The average damage a Duca does is increased a bit.

If my recommendation for these ships is not used in favor of another idea. I would like to urge caution on improving it in any way that relies on skill shot. The Duca's are already a favorite of the highly skilled players because of the way she handles (and still under performs). If you improved the main battery shells or torpedoes these ships can go straight to broken status real fast. Stick to RNG enhancements only.

Excellent maneuverability + High velocity shells are two key components of a broken recipe.  They are not enough by themselves, but adding a compatible third would be a disaster. Turrets must not get faster and shells must not improve and dispersion should not be tightened.

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And I've found that the agility of the Duca will save me a lot of the time. Aosta needs ifhe to do decent damage though. 

 

I think she is a good dd hunter and I like her guns. She is quickly becoming my favourite t6 cruiser.

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20 hours ago, TypicalEngineer said:

And I've found that the agility of the Duca will save me a lot of the time. Aosta needs ifhe to do decent damage though. 

 

I think she is a good dd hunter and I like her guns. She is quickly becoming my favourite t6 cruiser.

I love her too and her agility certainly can prolong her life. A great deal of that depends on who is shooting at you though. Extending your life is needed badly though because the Duca tends to deal damage slowly. The problem is that the Duca always has to put herself into harms way to use her guns because her range is so short. The Cleveland, Graf Spee, and Molotov among other T6 cruisers are hands down superior ships to the Duca.

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4 hours ago, g1itch said:

I love her too and her agility certainly can prolong her life. A great deal of that depends on who is shooting at you though. Extending your life is needed badly though because the Duca tends to deal damage slowly. The problem is that the Duca always has to put herself into harms way to use her guns because her range is so short. The Cleveland, Graf Spee, and Molotov among other T6 cruisers are hands down superior ships to the Duca.

That might be true. But a well played Duca is a fearsome opponent. With her agility, decent concealment and ok guns she can be a pest for the reds. Just don't get killed early on.

 

With IFHE i find her HE decent enough for consistent damage and her AP is nice on a broadside

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On 4/16/2018 at 9:03 AM, Xlap said:

Keep in mind that STs test several aspects and strategies of a ship, even adverse situations and strstegies. So it could be that. Also, even good players have bad games or make mistakes.

 

So far i ran across two Abruzzis (i sank one of them :Smile_playing:), both did pretty well. 

As a former supertester, I am well aware of how testing is done, but thanks for the pro-tip.

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On 4/23/2018 at 10:57 AM, Patosentado said:

Waiting for the released ship reviews in order to get it, but I love the Aosta.

LWM's review is out. Abruzzi sounds like a bad purchase.

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3 hours ago, g1itch said:

LWM's review is out. Abruzzi sounds like a bad purchase.

It almost sounds like a tier 7 duca d'aosta with worse guns. I'll still grab it, but in tier 9 battles, I'm not sure how it will do. 

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1 hour ago, pastore123 said:

It almost sounds like a tier 7 duca d'aosta with worse guns. I'll still grab it, but in tier 9 battles, I'm not sure how it will do. 

It sounds like it's worse than the Aousta in every category but torpedoes. I'm definitely not going to buy it unless they rework it down the road. If they release a premium this bad after how long Abruzzi has been in testing then it was always meant to be a bad boat.

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7 minutes ago, g1itch said:

It sounds like it's worse than the Aousta in every category but torpedoes. I'm definitely not going to buy it unless they rework it down the road. If they release a premium this bad after how long Abruzzi has been in testing then it was always meant to be a bad boat.

I feel like it will perform better against other cruisers. The d'Aosta gets cits from bb's just like the Abruzzi does it sounds like. From what I saw, the guns were the biggest problem. Especially since they are the same as the d'Aosta's guns. Another note is what Phoenix was saying about the armor scheme as well. They basically dropped its armor by about 30-50mm. 

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3 hours ago, pastore123 said:

I feel like it will perform better against other cruisers. The d'Aosta gets cits from bb's just like the Abruzzi does it sounds like. From what I saw, the guns were the biggest problem. Especially since they are the same as the d'Aosta's guns. Another note is what Phoenix was saying about the armor scheme as well. They basically dropped its armor by about 30-50mm. 

The problem is the game doesn't need "Cruiser Killing Cruisers" because Battleships do that already.  As a Tier VII, Abruzzi will be facing nothing but the most powerful Battleships below Tier X.  Mind you, Duca has the same issues dealing with BBs also, but as a Tier VI, she's not facing as much of the long range prowess BBs at Tier IX as they are outside her MM window.  But Abruzzi?  Will say hi to Missouri / Iowa, Izumo's guns are actually good, Alsace, Yamato.  And in High Tier, it's a BB-DD meta.

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30 minutes ago, HazeGrayUnderway said:

The problem is the game doesn't need "Cruiser Killing Cruisers" because Battleships do that already.  As a Tier VII, Abruzzi will be facing nothing but the most powerful Battleships below Tier X.  Mind you, Duca has the same issues dealing with BBs also, but as a Tier VI, she's not facing as much of the long range prowess BBs at Tier IX as they are outside her MM window.  But Abruzzi?  Will say hi to Missouri / Iowa, Izumo's guns are actually good, Alsace, Yamato.  And in High Tier, it's a BB-DD meta.

I understand what you are saying. But as it is, the one that actually gives me some concern is Musashi. Other than that, Duca d'Aosta already sees 16" guns when in tier 8 battles. And it is pretty squishy as well. I would say that both of these ships honestly have the same role. Beat up on others cruisers and eliminate dd's. 

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