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Benjammn79

Graf Spee?

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So I didn't get the GS when it was available via mission completion.  Was thinking about buying it but saw while the guns are larger than other same tier(ish) premium cruisers, the reload is like three times as long as well as only two turrets.  Is it worth it or should I just get one of the other cruisers?  There are times I wish you could test drive some of these premiums.

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2 minutes ago, Stauffenberg44 said:

See the recent review by LWM:

 

Thanks!  I'll check that out ASAP!

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Personally, I'd say "Pass" on Graf Spee / HSF Graf Spee.

 

I never did like Graf Spee's unreliable guns.

 

Prinz Eugen is the more reliable German Premium Cruiser.  She can actually, reliably HIT things.

http://wiki.wargaming.net/en/Ship:Prinz_Eugen

Good German Cruiser gunnery.

LOTS of torpedoes per side, 6km range.

Defensive Fire or Tier VIII German Cruiser Hydro access (German Hydro is the best Hydro in the game).

Tier VIII is the first tier where German Cruisers have great AA.  Better AA than New Orleans.

27mm bow.  This means Prinz Eugen can face tank up to 380mm AP shells, i.e. face tank AP shells from Bismarck, Tirpitz, Richelieu, Alsace 380mm / 15" guns and anything smaller.  Prinz didn't have this characteristic when she first came out, this was a much later change.  You can use it to charge these 15" or smaller armed ships to get close and drop torps on them.  Enjoy this.  From Tier VIII-X, German Cruisers share this common characteristic.  US Cruisers at Tier IX-X have 27mm bows also, but they don't have torps.

Supposed to get buffed soon by having Repair Party.

 
The camo also has pretty good bonus attached to them.
The Perma-Camo that Prinz Eugen comes with (excuse my poor laptop's graphics, it's 7 years old):
4fRHYdU.jpg

The "Adler" / Eagle camo is an additional purchase though.

FmI0AGY.jpg

 

Edited by HazeGrayUnderway

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Graf Spee is an interesting hybrid ship, reasonably flexible, and can be good in operations. The ship is something of a switch hitter, sometimes you play like a battleship, and sometimes she's a cruiser. I've had fun with mine.

The HSF version is the better deal, even if all you use is the camo it shares with the standard Graf Spee. Even the "Animie" camo is basically a fancy version of standard German Baltic camo, and it's pretty easy to overlook hull number and coat of arms on the bow. It's certainly not ARP levels of eye burning.

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On 4/10/2018 at 1:41 PM, HazeGrayUnderway said:

Personally, I'd say "Pass" on Graf Spee / HSF Graf Spee.

 

I never did like Graf Spee's unreliable guns.

 

Prinz Eugen is the more reliable German Premium Cruiser.  She can actually, reliably HIT things.

http://wiki.wargaming.net/en/Ship:Prinz_Eugen

Good German Cruiser gunnery.

LOTS of torpedoes per side, 6km range.

Defensive Fire or Tier VIII German Cruiser Hydro access (German Hydro is the best Hydro in the game).

Tier VIII is the first tier where German Cruisers have great AA.  Better AA than New Orleans.

27mm bow.  This means Prinz Eugen can face tank up to 380mm AP shells, i.e. face tank AP shells from Bismarck, Tirpitz, Richelieu, Alsace 380mm / 15" guns and anything smaller.  Prinz didn't have this characteristic when she first came out, this was a much later change.  You can use it to charge these 15" or smaller armed ships to get close and drop torps on them.  Enjoy this.  From Tier VIII-X, German Cruisers share this common characteristic.  US Cruisers at Tier IX-X have 27mm bows also, but they don't have torps.

Supposed to get buffed soon by having Repair Party.

 
The camo also has pretty good bonus attached to them.
The Perma-Camo that Prinz Eugen comes with (excuse my poor laptop's graphics, it's 7 years old):
4fRHYdU.jpg

The "Adler" / Eagle camo is an additional purchase though.

FmI0AGY.jpg

 

Hey

I have to completely disagree.  The Graf Spee is a great little ship with decent guns that can murder cruiser and take big chunks our of BB's, not to mention the best torps of the German fleet.  I don't have too much trouble with the guns, the only downside is you have 6 barrels.  It's one of the best German cruisers going and gets over looked by a lot of players until it's too late.  Great T6 cruiser!

 

Pete

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Graf Spee follows a simple design philosophy that (almost) perfectly sums up its playstyle: Outgun what you can, outrun what you can't. She's most at home hunting other cruisers with those MASSIVE 11" inch guns of hers, just load AP and go to town. Even if she doesn't citadel them she should get good damage. Her next prey should be low health and/or distracted battleships, US standards and slow dreadnoughts are good pickings for her. She needs to avoid destroyers though, her guns fire and turn too slowly to reliably kill them if they get close. Hydro and torpedoes are a decent defense against them if one catches her off guard, but keeping them at arms' length or more is preferred.

Personally, I love her. People seem to underestimate her because of that cruiser icon overhead, but she can tank and good and her torpedoes have longer range and better speed than most German crusiers.

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2 hours ago, sasquatch_research said:

Hey

I have to completely disagree.  The Graf Spee is a great little ship with decent guns that can murder cruiser and take big chunks our of BB's, not to mention the best torps of the German fleet.  I don't have too much trouble with the guns, the only downside is you have 6 barrels.  It's one of the best German cruisers going and gets over looked by a lot of players until it's too late.  Great T6 cruiser!

 

Pete

I have absolutely zero fear of Graf Spees, but then again I no longer play Tier V-VI Cruisers, except for Cleveland, and she's about to head off into Tier VIII.

 

I play Tier VII-VIII and encounter Graf Spees all the time.  They are no threat to me, whether I use a Cruiser, Destroyer, Battleship.  I hold Graf's guns in disrespectful contempt.  Her repair party is inconsequential when BB shells come crashing down or far better Cruisers like Myoko, Mogami, Hipper / P.Eugen, Chapayev, Kutuzov will nail her.

 

The Battleships will crush Spee.

The higher tier Cruisers got the range, power, ACCURACY, DPM to make Spee pay dearly.  Even a Pensacola, New Orleans can outright crush Graf Spee because their guns are far more reliable.

 

The flaw of an "Anti-Cruiser Cruiser" is that by nature, it's obsolete.  The real "Anti-Cruiser" ships in WoWS are Battleships, so a Cruiser that solely specializes in Anti-Cruiser work is a waste.  Even then, those unreliable guns are poor in dealing with higher tier Cruisers.

 

Even a DD running around gunboating Graf Spee will do so with impunity.  6 guns is not enough in dealing with DDs.  Lord help Graf when a RU DD wants to work her over.  It's not even a contest.

 

I have no fear of Graf Spee.

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On ‎4‎/‎10‎/‎2018 at 2:55 PM, Benjammn79 said:

So I didn't get the GS when it was available via mission completion.  Was thinking about buying it but saw while the guns are larger than other same tier(ish) premium cruisers, the reload is like three times as long as well as only two turrets.  Is it worth it or should I just get one of the other cruisers?  There are times I wish you could test drive some of these premiums.

I agree that it sure would be nice to be able to test Premium Ships, but understand that might lead to as many "lost" sales as it would to "new" ones.

Although I cannot disagree too strongly with some of the above negative comments I find the Graf Spee a ball to play. To be clear, this is only in Coop, but I find her guns to be quite amazing compared to, say the Scharnhorst, which I love, with the decreased dispersion allowing as many effective hits from 6 guns as the Scharnhorst may get from 9. She is brutal to all cruisers and a great ambush torpedo  boat on BBs. The torpedo tubes have a great field of fire and the 8 kilometer range really aids in attacking BBs. She can really hurt DDs with a single salvo, but ideally at a distance, as she does not have the firepower or speed to fight them up close. 

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7 hours ago, HazeGrayUnderway said:

I have absolutely zero fear of Graf Spees, but then again I no longer play Tier V-VI Cruisers, except for Cleveland, and she's about to head off into Tier VIII.

 

I play Tier VII-VIII and encounter Graf Spees all the time.  They are no threat to me, whether I use a Cruiser, Destroyer, Battleship.  I hold Graf's guns in disrespectful contempt.  Her repair party is inconsequential when BB shells come crashing down or far better Cruisers like Myoko, Mogami, Hipper / P.Eugen, Chapayev, Kutuzov will nail her.

 

The Battleships will crush Spee.

The higher tier Cruisers got the range, power, ACCURACY, DPM to make Spee pay dearly.  Even a Pensacola, New Orleans can outright crush Graf Spee because their guns are far more reliable.

 

The flaw of an "Anti-Cruiser Cruiser" is that by nature, it's obsolete.  The real "Anti-Cruiser" ships in WoWS are Battleships, so a Cruiser that solely specializes in Anti-Cruiser work is a waste.  Even then, those unreliable guns are poor in dealing with higher tier Cruisers.

 

Even a DD running around gunboating Graf Spee will do so with impunity.  6 guns is not enough in dealing with DDs.  Lord help Graf when a RU DD wants to work her over.  It's not even a contest.

 

I have no fear of Graf Spee.

Hey

Really?  There isn't too many T6 of anything that can hold it's own in T7 (somewhat ok) but they all get crushed by T8's, even the BB's so what you say is somewhat questionable   Just because you don't play the Graf Spee very well doesn't mean others can't.  Funny thing is when asked about the best T6 cruiser in the game by the community, the Graf Spee is always mentioned.  I have been able to kill DD's before even though I do prefer to avoid them but not afraid to shoot if needed, even BB's don't like DD's much and many cruisers also fall to them, so again your point is dubious at best.  I hope we get to meet when your in your Pensacola or New Orleans and I'm in my Graf Spee, which I do play fairly often.  I'm glad you have no fear of them, I like target bait.

 

Pete

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Let me just say this.  I hold Tier VI Aoba as a more dangerous Cruiser than Graf Spee.  Aoba's gunnery is reliable, she shoots FAST for a 203mm armed CA.  Her guns are reliable against all target types.  Graf Spee needs to rely on finding a Cruiser and is mediocre against Battleships and worse, TERRIBLE against Destroyers.

 

I do not respect Graf Spee at all.  I hold her in contempt.

 

But do not make my contempt for Graf Spee seem like I will ignore her.  On the contrary.  She is a Cruiser still, and my Battleships always look for Cruisers to crush.  My Cruisers have an easy time with Graf as she struggles to hit them.

 

Anyways.

Get a real Cruiser.  One that can actually reliably hit things.  If you want wonky but strong guns, play a Battleship instead.  You'll actually have the staying power.

 

What do I call a Cruiser that has trouble hitting things?

GARBAGE

You may as well play a Battleship.

 

What better choice of a Cruiser for a Battleship to crush than a Cruiser that has trouble hitting things.

Edited by HazeGrayUnderway
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On 4/12/2018 at 1:36 PM, HazeGrayUnderway said:

Let me just say this.  I hold Tier VI Aoba as a more dangerous Cruiser than Graf Spee.  Aoba's gunnery is reliable, she shoots FAST for a 203mm armed CA.  Her guns are reliable against all target types.  Graf Spee needs to rely on finding a Cruiser and is mediocre against Battleships and worse, TERRIBLE against Destroyers.

But do not make my contempt for Graf Spee seem like I will ignore her.  On the contrary.  She is a Cruiser still, and my Battleships always look for Cruisers to crush.

What better choice of a Cruiser for a Battleship to crush than a Cruiser that has trouble hitting things.


Actually Graf Spee has great guns. Excellent pen and Alpha dmg.
I really do think Graf Spee should get an 18 second reload. That would make the ship alot more practical & playable. But because Graf Spee doesn't have an 18 sec reload, I'm not spending any money on that boat.
As for the rest, Graf Spee has cruiser armor. But a pretty good level of cruiser armor. An decent armored belt with a turtleback.

I'm waiting for the D-class cruiser that had a 220mm belt and a third triple turret with those 28.3cm guns.

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On 4/12/2018 at 3:05 AM, HazeGrayUnderway said:

I have absolutely zero fear of Graf Spees, but then again I no longer play Tier V-VI Cruisers, except for Cleveland, and she's about to head off into Tier VIII.

 

I play Tier VII-VIII and encounter Graf Spees all the time.  They are no threat to me, whether I use a Cruiser, Destroyer, Battleship.  I hold Graf's guns in disrespectful contempt.  Her repair party is inconsequential when BB shells come crashing down or far better Cruisers like Myoko, Mogami, Hipper / P.Eugen, Chapayev, Kutuzov will nail her.

 

The Battleships will crush Spee.

The higher tier Cruisers got the range, power, ACCURACY, DPM to make Spee pay dearly.  Even a Pensacola, New Orleans can outright crush Graf Spee because their guns are far more reliable.

 

The flaw of an "Anti-Cruiser Cruiser" is that by nature, it's obsolete.  The real "Anti-Cruiser" ships in WoWS are Battleships, so a Cruiser that solely specializes in Anti-Cruiser work is a waste.  Even then, those unreliable guns are poor in dealing with higher tier Cruisers.

 

Even a DD running around gunboating Graf Spee will do so with impunity.  6 guns is not enough in dealing with DDs.  Lord help Graf when a RU DD wants to work her over.  It's not even a contest.

 

I have no fear of Graf Spee.

Kinda a pointless comparison, Graf Spee is a 25 dollar/tier 6 ship being compared to 50 dollar/tier 8 ships, I'd expect the 50 dollar/tier 8 ship to be better.

Good things about the Graf Spee, she can't see anything higher than tier 8, she's a weird hybrid ship, she's a good captain trainer and if all else fails, you can take her into operations. She's also only $25.

Prinz Eugen is also a nice ship, problem is, even though you can beat up Graf Spee's, you're gonna get fed to Hindenburg's, you can enjoy the camp fests at tier 10. You can take her into ranked this season, but you paid $50.

 

When I'm in tier 8 games, and there's tier 6 cruisers running around, Graf Spee is second after the Cleveland for cruisers that needs to die first. A Cleveland if it's smart will get behind an island and spam HE till someone kills it, a Graf Spee can get lucky and lolpen a cruiser. Aoba's just tend to get focused and explode because they're easy to kill, being made out of citadel. Most tier 6 cruisers are lower on the list because they will need time to put their guns to work

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Spee is an amazing ship and not to be underestimated. She absolutely wrecks other tier 6 cruisers simply due to not only her having amazing alpha (not dpm), but her AP can lolpen cruisers below tier 8. She's also by far the toughest tier 6 cruiser, with not only the most health, but also the only cruiser her tier with Repair Party. Don't show your sides to battleship guns and you generally will have the durability to survive all game.

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I would recommend her, because i have both versions of the ship (HSF and Event (also worked for her)) because you can get some pretty good games if you learn how to play her well. 

Spoiler

20171111102938_1.thumb.jpg.b82e8442d087c15ecf140dd26d494732.jpg20171111102941_1.thumb.jpg.28afd1016e57c6fb6e112ab887c330c0.jpg

I went down with a brawl than a shootout.

20171111102947_1.jpg

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Graf Spee is a fantastic ship.  Just stay at range and don't get targeted by battleships. . . as you butcher and brutalize cruisers.

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On 4/12/2018 at 4:35 AM, HazeGrayUnderway said:

The flaw of an "Anti-Cruiser Cruiser" is that by nature, it's obsolete.  The real "Anti-Cruiser" ships in WoWS are Battleships, so a Cruiser that solely specializes in Anti-Cruiser work is a waste.  Even then, those unreliable guns are poor in dealing with higher tier Cruisers.

Her problem is that IRL she was built as a trade-interdiction ship with the power to swat isolated six-inch-gunned trade protection cruisers of the sort the British employed everywhere. As part of a larger fleet, she has no real settled role.

Take off her hydro, take off her plane, take off her light AA, ignore her torpedoes, and what she becomes is something with the main guns and turret layout of a German pre-dreadnought (albeit six barrels instead of four), a light 5.9 inch secondary armament (for firing shots across bows and sinking small merchantmen not worth a main battery shot), and WW1-era cruiser-level armour and speed. In other words, she is what might almost be called a pre-dreadnought battlecruiser. She;s been buffed a hell of a lot, sure, but in main gun terms, in all respects except range, she almost belongs at Tier 2 with the Mikasa.

She's at most a Tier 3 ship with AA and hydro buffs to enable her to survive at Tier 6. I'm considering playing her as such and seeing what happens.

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Personally, I really like the Graf Spee. It's a good brawler, and truly embodies the class that doesn't actually exist in WoWS formally: The Battlecruiser.

It's not the fastest, no, but its guns hit hard at close range where the poor dispersion hardly matters, plus you have a heal to mitigate some of the damage you will take. It has decent enough armor for a cruiser, and faster reloads than a battleship. The torpedo angles are also some of the best in the entire game. The ship's torpedo complement can be fired practically straight behind the ship and the frontal arc is also impressive.

I honestly hated the Graf Spee when I first got it, but then I learned to play to the ship's strengths and I began to really enjoy it. It is great for seal clubbing because cruiser captains disrespect your ship's firepower and then you one-shot them because they go broadside and you proceed to citadel them. It's not going to be everyone's style of gameplay, but it is very strong in Operations and it can surprise players when a "cruiser" starts attempting to brawl in suicide ranges.

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On 4/12/2018 at 1:36 PM, HazeGrayUnderway said:

... is mediocre against Battleships ...

You mean "mediocre against angled battleships".  Battleships that disrespect those 283s and go broadside generally regret doing so.  

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On 5/7/2018 at 7:01 AM, SeaRaptor00 said:

You mean "mediocre against angled battleships".  Battleships that disrespect those 283s and go broadside generally regret doing so.  

Hey

Exactly right; can you imagine if she had the same gun range at Scharnhorst.  Oh Baby!!!!!

 

Pete

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I am stuck without a gaming computer, going on 3 weeks now,  but I did manage to take advantage of a sale and get the Spee for 9.95US $.   So thank you for this well timed thread.  Hopefully,  when my system is back up and running,  I'll remember the advice posted above.

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Hey

Just had a game in the Graf Spee for just over 101.5K damage and 4 ships sunk, even got a cap out of it, top of the leader board.  I just wished I had taken a screen shot of it.   Of course not all games are this good but she has great potential when played correctly and with some luck.  Great T6 cruiser!!

Pete

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Congrats on your game.  Spee is an excellent ship in the hands of someone who understands how to use her.

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On 4/12/2018 at 2:35 AM, Landsraad said:

Graf Spee follows a simple design philosophy that (almost) perfectly sums up its playstyle: Outgun what you can, outrun what you can't. She's most at home hunting other cruisers with those MASSIVE 11" inch guns of hers, just load AP and go to town. Even if she doesn't citadel them she should get good damage. Her next prey should be low health and/or distracted battleships, US standards and slow dreadnoughts are good pickings for her. She needs to avoid destroyers though, her guns fire and turn too slowly to reliably kill them if they get close. Hydro and torpedoes are a decent defense against them if one catches her off guard, but keeping them at arms' length or more is preferred.

Personally, I love her. People seem to underestimate her because of that cruiser icon overhead, but she can tank and good and her torpedoes have longer range and better speed than most German crusiers.

That is one of the best way descriptions of the Spee I have seen in a while.

To the OP, I love my Spee she is the HSF version and is my go to ship for everything from Random to Operations. Is she perfect? NO! But most ships are not, her guns can let you down once in a while when they go silly. And she has to be learned, it is not a pick it up and go ship (IMO).

I have taken out everything from DDs to CVs with her (DDs are a pain with her). I would if I could would buy the non-HSF version just so I could have two of them.

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Thanks for all the great feedback folks!  I love the WoWS community.  I went ahead and picked up the HSF version.  I liked the look of that second camo better.

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