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Jester_of_War

What do you mean "good guns" ?

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When people say "good guns", what do you mean?

Is it just a single variable like Shell Velocity or Alpha damage?? Is it a more complex combination of factors all rolled together -- like Turret Traverse, Range, Sigma, Dispersion, Rate of Fire, etc.?

Or is it simply a feelings thing? -- "When I play this ship, shooting her guns is a hoot!"

As a fairly new player, I'd like to hear from folks what are the ships in the game that have 'good guns'? And does that correlate to any particular stat?

[My apologies if this is a question that's already been forummed to death. If so, anyone have a link?]

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Really depends on many factors like what tier it is at, which ship type is it, what armor will it be firing at, range, shell weight, sigma, dispersion, alpha, dot effects, shell normalization etc etc. If you haven't already, check out the wiki as it goes in depth as to how shells work and so on. If that doesnt answer all your questions, throw them out here and i'm sure someone will know. Also if you have a specific ship you are curious about, go ahead and mention it.

http://wiki.wargaming.net/en/Ship:Gunnery_%26_Armor_Penetration

http://wiki.wargaming.net/en/Ship:Ammo

Edited by RipNuN2
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Shell velocity, shell performance, and gun handling all contribute to 'good guns.' RoF seems to be a take it or leave it; Zao has 'great guns' but the lowest RoF at T10 while DM has the 2nd fastest and they are so-so.

Edited by _RC1138

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A gun can have several very good variables and still be a bad gun.

IJN Destroyer 127mm guns for example have excellent ballistic arcs, velocity, fire chance and damage potential but they're not good guns. They're held back by ROF and turret traverse, meaning that you'll usually be out-DPM'd by your targets and will usually struggle keeping them on target under maneuvers.

USN 5" /38 is another example of a gun that's good on paper but is held back by certain variables. It has excellent ROF and turret traverse, so you can lay down a lot of fire in any direction without wasting much time waiting on your turrets to catch up to your aim, but they're held back by very high arcs making accurate long range fire very difficult.

What is a 'good gun'? A gun who's strengths can cover for its weaknesses, a gun that matches the role of the ship it's on. A gun or set of guns that give you an edge you can exploit over the competition.

Take Blyskawica for example. Its guns don't really stand out in any particular variable. They have middling turret traverse, slow ROF, ok arcs, middling damage and fire potential - but there are seven of them, and they don't have pronounced weaknesses. They offer better accuracy at range than the US 5" /38, they out DPM the IJN 127s, they offer an edge you can exploit in many common situations. That is why I consider Blywkawica's guns 'good guns'.

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Simply, for me good guns are guns that have a high ROF but can also hurt my opponent. I like that. Fun. That's why I have played few BBs during my time here.  I get bored with the slow re-load. May sound silly but that's just me. I play some tier 3-4 cruisers that really fire fast like Bogatyr for instance and Svetlana. The only BB I really like thus far is Scharnhorst because she fires as fast as many cruisers.  Been doing great with her. I like Cleveland but I have not done real well in her and am not sure why. I think I just tend to get too aggressive in her and get focus fired too often. But she can pour out the lead.O ya.

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You can always tell if the guns are good when you are on receiving end.

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For me, "good guns" are found on Shchors, Neptune, and Nelson. Each (to me) feels accurate, fast (eh not Neptune) and deals good damage.

"Bad guns" for me are mostly German BB guns. Dispersion sucks.

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My definition would be a high DPM with a good chance of reaching max DPM.  Bad dispersion or shell arcs would prevent you from reaching max potential DPM.  

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For me it is how much I can rely on them to do what they need to do. Good guns have decent turret traverse, good ROF, good accuracy, good range, and decent shell arcs for their type and tier. If the combination of those add up well then the guns are 'good'.

CLs should be able to kill DDs and light BBs on fire. Nurnberg and DeGrasse have guns that do well in all 5 factors so they have good guns. Mogami pushes that math with her slow turret traverse and short range, but the other factors are enough to make her 155s 'good guns', not amazing but good enough.

A BB needs to kill cruisers and BBs. Bismarck has crap accuracy so her guns are not 'good' (I do enjoy the ship) they are 'meh' overall, but 'okay' once you work your way in close enough.

DDs guns need to kill DDs and should be able to set fires on everything else. Most IJN DDs have horrible turret traverse and slow ROF so their guns are horrible.

Edited by MasterDiggs

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I consider a ship to have "good guns", if it can meet several subjective criteria:

  1. How hard is it to learn to hit things with them? 
  2. In the situations where I would like to use the guns, do I find it easy or difficult to do so?
  3. When I use my guns, do they have reliable results?

Here's some examples:

The T8 IJN Akazuki:  a pure gunboat DD if there ever was one.  

  1. Hitting things with it out past 8km gets really dicey, and you're generally in the "throw stuff against the wall and see what sticks" method of firing. And that's with practice, that you'll be lucky to hit half the time even on big BB targets
  2. The ROF is insane, and the turret rotation is great. So using the guns is easy-peasy as pie. And they've got excellent range.
  3. The damage is crap. 100mm HE is practically useless without IFHE. AP will bounce or shatter on everything. So the performance is pretty awful.

Overall, despite me liking the Akizuki, I'm never gonna claim it has "good guns", because really only #2 is good.

 

The T8 Z-23 with 150mm -  a hybrid gunboat/torp DD

  1. They have relatively flat arcs, which makes aiming in close combat easy. But they also have sufficient arc to lob over moderately tall islands if the target is towards your max range.
  2. They have less-than-stellar turret rotation and ROF (for a DD), so it's not anywhere as simple to use them as for other DDs, and they have OK range.
  3. The 150mm HE has great penetration (shading to amazing when IFHE is added), awesome fire chance, and deals a lot of damage.  The AP pen is excellent too. So when I fire at something, I *know* each hit hurts.

On the whole, I think the Z-23 has "good guns".  Maybe not "great guns" due to the lack of turret rotation and somewhat slow ROF, but it passes my "good" threshold.

 

The T8 KM Hipper

  1. Great ballistics on the shells, both HE and AP, it's very easy to hit things with them at all ranges, including extreme range
  2. The AB-XY layout makes it hard here, as in a cruiser, you're very often wiggling and kiting, and this means that (combined with the lackluster turret rotation) half of your guns aren't able to be aimed at a target most of the time. And the ROF is (currently) terrible, especially given the lower number of barrels. 8 guns w/ 13 second reload is WAAAY behind everyone else it sees.
  3. While good on paper, the results in reality are mediocre. German HE (even with the pen bump) doesn't do much damage, especially since the Hipper is ROF-limited. And the AP, while stellar when it hits, is prone to bouncing and other problems.  DPM is bad for the Hipper, and as that's what a upper-tier cruiser really needs, this is a huge problem.

So, despite it looking like it might be a good ship, the Hipper definitely doesn't have "good guns".

 

The T8 IJN Mogami, with 155mm

  1. The 155mm have darned good ballistics - flat close in, making shots under 8km really easy to aim and hit with. At longer ranges, the arcs aren't so bad as to really affect hit rate after a little practice, and their great for lobbing over islands.
  2. Turret rotation is atrocious.  You absolutely will not be making quick-reaction target changes.  That said, the playstyle of the Mogami is such that you should never be putting yourself in that kind of situation to begin with, and even a fast-moving turret probably wouldn't help anyway.  ROF and number of barrels are excellent, however, so overall, I find that if I'm playing the ship to it's strengths, the guns are available when I want them to do what I want them to do.
  3. DPM is one of the best in the game. Massive number of shots/salvo, with decent reload time, and, after mounting IFHE, really good penetration. The results are hard-hitting reliable damage on all targets at all distances.

I consider the 155mm Mogami to have excellent guns, if you're playing the ship properly. That is, the combination of factors in the Mogami means that it enforces a particular playstyle - if you're doing that, the guns are monstrous. If you're not in that mode of play, you're in trouble. 

 

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Just like with ships, there are no bad ships, just bad COs. There are no bad guns, just bad COs (or gunners). Play the ship, use the gun. You will or you won't like it. I like:

  • IJN 127 mm guns are great, just ignore their turn time
  • IJN 100 mm guns are great, just ignore its smaller rounds
  • IJN 203 mm guns are great, they just are
  • French 380 mm guns are great, just shoot at broadside ships
  • French 340mm guns are great, they are just "small" compared to other ships
  • French 203mm guns are great, they just feel deadly accurate
  • USN 5" guns are decent, you just gotta learn their shell arcs
  • etc.

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1 hour ago, Ramsalot said:

You can always tell if the guns are good when you are on receiving end.

As a Cruiser Main, the BB guns that scare me the most:

Yamato / Musashi 460mm x9

Iowa / Missouri 16"/50 x9

Montana 16"/50 xMother-FockingTWELVE

Amagi 410mm x10

 

IJN 460s are scary because not only do they have range, excessive power, but Yamato's can be pinpoint even at range.

Montana is the next scariest because they got an excellent balance of power, accuracy, range, and most of all:  Volume of Fire per Salvo.

 

Yamato and Montana are the BBs that concern my Cruisers the most.  They are the ones that tend to connect even at range against a Cruiser, for telling effect.  I can dance at range with Hindenburg, Henri IV against Yamato, landing hit after hit after hit after hit, setting 1, then 2, then 3 fires, racking up damage.  Then that 1 Yamato salvo lands and rips a lot of my HP away.  Never an easy fight with a competently sailed Yamato / Montana.

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It will depend in part on what play-style you most enjoy. If you like using cover, allowing your team to spot for you, and firing over islands, U.S. Destroyers, and cruisers like the Cleveland or Atlanta, might really suit you. They mostly share the trait of high arcs, more like lobbing mortar rounds, that can be very effective while keeping you relatively safe from harm snuggled up to an island. If you like flatter arcs, the RU line might be for you. Though they can be out-gunned by U.S. ships at closer ranges, their relatively high velocity and flatter arcs make them very deadly at longer ranges. Kirov and Molotov for example, though very squishy, have 180mm guns, capable of dealing devastating damage against ships in the middle tiers.

German, French and IJN guns each have their own characteristics as well, of course. For many, it is a combination of the guns, the potential damage they can put out, and all the other characteristics of the ship when taken as a whole, that determines whether a ship feels "right" for a given player. I really encourage you to, rather than going deep (picking one line and racing up it as fast as you can), go wide (trying some of everything through tier 6 or 7) in order to determine what best suits your play style and what is most fun for you to play. I believe that is your best chance of finding what works for you and continuing to enjoy the game for a long time.

Whatever you decide, best of luck and I hope you find it very fun!

Respects,

Am

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2 hours ago, Jester_of_War said:

When people say "good guns", what do you mean?

Is it just a single variable like Shell Velocity or Alpha damage?? Is it a more complex combination of factors all rolled together -- like Turret Traverse, Range, Sigma, Dispersion, Rate of Fire, etc.?

Or is it simply a feelings thing? -- "When I play this ship, shooting her guns is a hoot!"

As a fairly new player, I'd like to hear from folks what are the ships in the game that have 'good guns'? And does that correlate to any particular stat?

[My apologies if this is a question that's already been forummed to death. If so, anyone have a link?]

Broadly speaking It's a combination of all the stats of the gun such as, the number of guns, dispersion, sigma, penetration, alpha damage, and high dpm. Bad dispersion/sigma can be compensated for by having lots of guns like the Fuso and Lyon for example.  For my the parameters to emphasize are things that, as a summation, produce reliable, consistent and accurate damage. Typically low dispersion and low sigma are the prime factors. You can work around low alpha, low pen, or low shell velocity, but you can't work around bad RNG rolls; so you want RNG to have the least representation possible.  This is why I actually don't think the Fuso is all that great, and I think that the Yamato, Montana, Missouri, and North Carolina possessing the best guns in the game.

 

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Having no crippling weaknesses (traverse, ROF or shell-arcs are typical) while being above average in a couple of areas is enough.

 

Some guns are also bad in an absolute sense. La Galissonniere has poor guns compared to Budyonny: they have 6.7 instead of 7.5 RPM, fire shells which have longer flight times to target and have less AP penetration while they do the same HE and AP damage with the same fire chance. Although LG has better traverse, Budyonny's traverse is still acceptable and that difference does not offset the shortcomings.

 

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Guilio Cesare!  :cap_haloween:

 

Seriously, it’s somewhat subjective, and can depend on what you’re comfortable with.  Looking at your profile, you’ve rushed the US cruiser line and dabbled in some others.  Not the best choice.  I made that mistake myself.

My suggestion for you would be to step back and try some other lines.  Give yourself time to learn before throwing yourself to the wolves.  I would say my three happiest gunnery lines right now are Russian destroyers, German cruisers and German battleships.  Others will disagree.  You have to find what works for you. 

Of the ships you do have, I’d say give some more time to Orion and Phoenix.  There’s a reason Orion is getting nerfed, it’s so good, and its AP is surprisingly good.  Phoenix is fragile, but the guns hit hard for her tier, have good range and accuracy.

Give them a try, you just might like them.

Oh, and if you feel like spending money, Warspite/Arizona both have great guns.

Good luck!

 

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To me good guns are reliable guns, predictable. So you know when you aim at the right spot and lead correctly you get an expected outcome. I do prefer a reasonable shell velocity, but not mandatory. What I dislike is, for example Izumo guns, some times they go right where you want them and wreck crap, other times they are flying all over the place.

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3 hours ago, Jester_of_War said:

When people say "good guns", what do you mean?

Simple.  It means that when I shoot at something it blows up.

 

From what I've seen the "best guns" are on Russian ships.  Doesn't mean the ships themselves aren't crap, but it's a plus.  Ever seen what a Molotov does to the forts in Aegis? 

 

Edited by iDuckman

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1 hour ago, HazeGrayUnderway said:

Yamato and Montana are the BBs that concern my Cruisers the most.  They are the ones that tend to connect even at range against a Cruiser, for telling effect.

This tells me you have not met a competent Republique and Conqueror players yet.  One day they might earn your respect :cap_haloween:

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3 hours ago, Jester_of_War said:

When people say "good guns", what do you mean?

Is it just a single variable like Shell Velocity or Alpha damage?? Is it a more complex combination of factors all rolled together -- like Turret Traverse, Range, Sigma, Dispersion, Rate of Fire, etc.?

Or is it simply a feelings thing? -- "When I play this ship, shooting her guns is a hoot!"

As a fairly new player, I'd like to hear from folks what are the ships in the game that have 'good guns'? And does that correlate to any particular stat?

[My apologies if this is a question that's already been forummed to death. If so, anyone have a link?]

Good gun = shoot straight, accurate with a spread that is predictable. 

Derp Gun = Alpha Damage 

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Whatever I can hit things with...mostly Soviet 152mm guns and the DP 130mm railguns.

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Good guns fit in their tier and don't make you feel like "goddamnit, I wish I had X ship, because this one blows"

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On 4/9/2018 at 2:48 PM, Korval_BB55 said:

Looking at your profile, you’ve rushed the US cruiser line

Yes indeed: early on I read that the Cleveland was a good ship for it's tier. And then with the USN line split I got even more into USN Cruisers because I think, for the most, part I'm pretty into faster, more nimble ships. Mostly Destroyers. But also Light Cruisers. And with the USN line splitting off a bunch of new Light Cruisers I figured I'd get in on the ground floor. I'm newish to the game and this is a fun chance to be there at the beginning of something.

But learning gunnery with American guns has had it's upside: with long shell flight times I've learned how to lead shots at long range. I'm landing great shots on the other side of islands, I've set fires aiming with just the mini-map and I've even hit the occasional DD at max range by anticipating their evasive maneuvers. So it's been fun and educational learning how to handle USN guns.

In checking out other CLs, I played the Friant quite a bit in the last few days and had fun with different artillery. Since French Cruisers sometimes get the "good guns" description I was simply putting up this post because I was looking to understand a little more about all the factors that go into "good guns."

So thanks to everyone for your responses. I'll continue with the French Cruisers and VMF light cruisers (DDs) and check out the British Cruisers when I have time. And of course the USN CLs when they come out. And I aim to get good with the Pensacola as well.

Any other suggestions on mid-tier ships to sail with "good guns" is appreciated.

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