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warheart1992

A comparison of Premium ship design logic, Asashio and its potential impact on the game.

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The past few weeks the forums seem to be in a general state of uproar.  While a lot of it is about the Midway changes and the tuning done to the Graf Zeppelin, the finalization and the imminent introduction of Asashio seems to be in the spotlight. Before you cry “why do we need one more Asashio thread”, in this topic I won’t whine or complain about the stats of Asashio but rather try to discern the potential influence the ship might have on the game.

Of course until the ship becomes available to the public everything can change so be mindful of that. What I believe and will argue, is that the Asashio is a victim of the totally scientific term “overgimmifickation” (Yes I made that word up) i.e. the overspecialization of the role of a ship to provide something unique to the customers. This I believe will affect the game negatively as well as its owners in time.  In order to get an idea however on the possible impact of the Asashio when it is released to the public I believe we need some other examples of ships considered overpowered and how they influenced the game. I believe finding the impact of their gimmicks or lack thereof will provide us with indicators about the possible impact of the Asashio itself.

The first premium ship whose impact we will examine (and I believe this was expected) is the Belfast. Its ability to slot the Concealment mod, which resulted in an impressive detection range, the existence of both Hydro and Radar in one ship and the addition of smoke led this ship to be considered overpowered and personally with good reason. Its impact was most visible during the Sixth Ranked Season. The Belfast was hands down the best ship, able to abuse its stealth, deny caps because of its Radar as well as deal a lot of damage in smoke with an IFHE captain and use its Hydro avoid any torpedo retribution. This I think is one of the prime examples of how too many gimmicks can create an overpowered premium ship with too many advantages over its tech tree counterparts.  This however is just one side of the coin.

Enter a more recent addition, the Giulio Cesare. Cesare is the complete opposite of the Belfast when it comes to premium ship design but is considered borderline overpowered, if not outright. It has zero gimmicks, focusing instead on impressive hard stats. It is often stealthier than cruisers, has very competitive speed, impressive gun accuracy, some of the best maneuverability seen in BBs and very strong HE ammo.  It’s only real con is the lack of good AA. The biggest indicator of the impact that Giulio has in the game –and I say this from personal experience– is when you are being put into T7 battles. Compared to the rest of the T5 pack, with the exception of the Kamikaze clones Giulio is far ahead. It can use its stealth to disengage from disadvantageous encounters; it can burn down with HE any BB bowtanking and use its accuracy to gut cruisers. I believe it to be a very good example of the perfection of simplicity when it comes to the playstyle of the ship.

Having seen these two extremes in design philosophy it is time to move onto the Asashio. The Asashio itself afaik is placed between the Shiratsuyu and Kagero. I believe you could say in broad terms it is a “proto Kagero”. This means that the differences between it and the Kagero since they are both in the same tier are minimal. Afaik the ship does not have any spectacular historic importance. Therefore in order for the Asashio to attract customers gimmicks were needed.  This in turn lead to the usage of the 20km DWT torps –that can only hit BBs and CVs–, paired with the torpedo reload booster and smoke in order to provide uniqueness to the ship. What does all that mean about the ship? How do all these compare to the premium ships I mentioned above? Did I just write a wall of text for no reason?

In my opinion the usage of too specific gimmicks will possibly make the Asashio BOTH OVERPOWERED AND UNDERPOWERED when it is released.

To better explain this we need to go back to our first examples, the Belfast and Giulio. They represent polar opposites in premium ship design philosophy as we have shown, yet they share something very important. They are both reliant on player performance.  If you are a good player in them you play well regardless.  The Asashio however does not work like that. It is subject to the whims of Matchmaking and RNG. It is directly affected by the number of BBs in a battle, even the location of their bulk to get most of its damage. While at this point there is a large BB population, the meta shifts constantly. There might come a time therefore when BBs are not that used. What will an Asashio player, even a good one is able to do when each team has two or three BBs that split on each flank? You can of course contribute by capping and spotting enemies but the impact of your primary weapon will be severely limited. While possibly a sound choice in the current environment, the power of Asashio could be easily limited.

To conclude, I don’t believe the fact Asashio can be overpowered in the right circumstances is as big of an issue as it is portrayed. The game has seen its share of overpowered ships. To me the biggest issue is how playing this ship relies more on RNG to get the Matchmaking you need rather than having a steady performance as a player in all battles. And this I believe to be a negative philosophy when it comes to premium ships.

And I personally dislike too much Randomness.

 

Thank you for your patience in reading my wall.

 

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Who are the people hyping up Asashio? The ship is literal bottom of the bottom feces.

 

Kagero's average damage is barely 25k. Now imagine a Kagero with torps that can only hit 1/4 of the original targets. 

 

There's going to be zero changes in meta with Asashio's release. 

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How about we just give asashio Chung mu's deep waters and take away it's smoke. It'll be good against cruisers and bbs, but can't hit nuke you from 20km away

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No ship is bad, just the CO... unless it is the Emerald. You could cit her by looking at her.

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So how does the gun load out figure it to its design and overperformance/underperformance?  Isn't there a number of ships in the Pan-Asian line that are considered to have good guns that offset the limited performance of their DWT?

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10 minutes ago, NeutralState said:

Who are the people hyping up Asashio? The ship is literal bottom of the bottom feces.

 

Kagero's average damage is barely 25k. Now imagine a Kagero with torps that can only hit 1/4 of the original targets. 

 

There's going to be zero changes in meta with Asashio's release. 

These aren't just Kagero torps, these are ultra deep torpedos that hit BBs for massive damage, have a tiny detection radius and 20km range.

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4 minutes ago, RealNewDeal said:

These aren't just Kagero torps, these are ultra deep torpedos that hit BBs for massive damage, have a tiny detection radius and 20km range.

The ONLY BBs that won't see the torps coming are the ones that camps way back, away from their teammates. Those BBs are worthless in any match.

 

A DD that goes sniping back line BBs is also pretty useless in the match contribution department.

 

so... 

 

Image result for let them fight

 

and who cares.

 

There is a hype movement going on with all the CC's making misleading Asashio contents. Like NoZoup made that misleading Asashio torp DPM chart, and intentionally not including the fact Asashio's torps can only hit 1/4 of the targets of normal DDs (thus effectively puts a ceiling on their dpm, a very low ceiling). Never forget that CCs are contractually linked to WG and functions like WG's marketing wing.

Edited by NeutralState

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I don’t see the problem with the Asashio, I’ll just treat her like any other Destroyer and WASD out of her torps.

 

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37 minutes ago, warheart1992 said:

Thank you for your patience in reading my wall.

Holy cow what a wall & had more stuff packed in there than most videos!!

 

That said, it was a great wall and should be made into a video, get your mic out sir.

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42 minutes ago, warheart1992 said:

The past few weeks the forums seem to be in a general state of uproar.  While a lot of it is about the Midway changes and the tuning done to the Graf Zeppelin, the finalization and the imminent introduction of Asashio seems to be in the spotlight. Before you cry “why do we need one more Asashio thread”, in this topic I won’t whine or complain about the stats of Asashio but rather try to discern the potential influence the ship might have on the game.

Of course until the ship becomes available to the public everything can change so be mindful of that. What I believe and will argue, is that the Asashio is a victim of the totally scientific term “overgimmifickation” (Yes I made that word up) i.e. the overspecialization of the role of a ship to provide something unique to the customers. This I believe will affect the game negatively as well as its owners in time.  In order to get an idea however on the possible impact of the Asashio when it is released to the public I believe we need some other examples of ships considered overpowered and how they influenced the game. I believe finding the impact of their gimmicks or lack thereof will provide us with indicators about the possible impact of the Asashio itself.

 

The first premium ship whose impact we will examine (and I believe this was expected) is the Belfast. Its ability to slot the Concealment mod, which resulted in an impressive detection range, the existence of both Hydro and Radar in one ship and the addition of smoke led this ship to be considered overpowered and personally with good reason. Its impact was most visible during the Sixth Ranked Season. The Belfast was hands down the best ship, able to abuse its stealth, deny caps because of its Radar as well as deal a lot of damage in smoke with an IFHE captain and use its Hydro avoid any torpedo retribution. This I think is one of the prime examples of how too many gimmicks can create an overpowered premium ship with too many advantages over its tech tree counterparts.  This however is just one side of the coin.

 

Enter a more recent addition, the Giulio Cesare. Cesare is the complete opposite of the Belfast when it comes to premium ship design but is considered borderline overpowered, if not outright. It has zero gimmicks, focusing instead on impressive hard stats. It is often stealthier than cruisers, has very competitive speed, impressive gun accuracy, some of the best maneuverability seen in BBs and very strong HE ammo.  It’s only real con is the lack of good AA. The biggest indicator of the impact that Giulio has in the game –and I say this from personal experience– is when you are being put into T7 battles. Compared to the rest of the T5 pack, with the exception of the Kamikaze clones Giulio is far ahead. It can use its stealth to disengage from disadvantageous encounters; it can burn down with HE any BB bowtanking and use its accuracy to gut cruisers. I believe it to be a very good example of the perfection of simplicity when it comes to the playstyle of the ship.

 

Having seen these two extremes in design philosophy it is time to move onto the Asashio. The Asashio itself afaik is placed between the Shiratsuyu and Kagero. I believe you could say in broad terms it is a “proto Kagero”. This means that the differences between it and the Kagero since they are both in the same tier are minimal. Afaik the ship does not have any spectacular historic importance. Therefore in order for the Asashio to attract customers gimmicks were needed.  This in turn lead to the usage of the 20km DWT torps –that can only hit BBs and CVs–, paired with the torpedo reload booster and smoke in order to provide uniqueness to the ship. What does all that mean about the ship? How do all these compare to the premium ships I mentioned above? Did I just write a wall of text for no reason?

 

In my opinion the usage of too specific gimmicks will possibly make the Asashio BOTH OVERPOWERED AND UNDERPOWERED when it is released.

 

To better explain this we need to go back to our first examples, the Belfast and Giulio. They represent polar opposites in premium ship design philosophy as we have shown, yet they share something very important. They are both reliant on player performance.  If you are a good player in them you play well regardless.  The Asashio however does not work like that. It is subject to the whims of Matchmaking and RNG. It is directly affected by the number of BBs in a battle, even the location of their bulk to get most of its damage. While at this point there is a large BB population, the meta shifts constantly. There might come a time therefore when BBs are not that used. What will an Asashio player, even a good one is able to do when each team has two or three BBs that split on each flank? You can of course contribute by capping and spotting enemies but the impact of your primary weapon will be severely limited. While possibly a sound choice in the current environment, the power of Asashio could be easily limited.

 

To conclude, I don’t believe the fact Asashio can be overpowered in the right circumstances is as big of an issue as it is portrayed. The game has seen its share of overpowered ships. To me the biggest issue is how playing this ship relies more on RNG to get the Matchmaking you need rather than having a steady performance as a player in all battles. And this I believe to be a negative philosophy when it comes to premium ships.

 

And I personally dislike too much Randomness.

 

 

 

 

Thank you for your patience in reading my wall.

 

 

Well done in the analysis! +1 I think you balance the strengths & limitations of the Asashio nicely!

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Well said. I think of it as an RNG boat, and much for the same reason "dumb luck" seems to eliminate CV's from the game when you switch to an AA spec captain or consumables/modules (yes armchair admirals...div with a CV I KNOW and I DO thanks...) it would be my luck to see nothing but 2 BB teams every time I take it out. Way too much RNG to utilize a strength for liking. 

It's a ship you REALLY want to win a crate for sh*ts and giggles but can never bring yourself (at least imo...) to spend real money/doubloons on and the people that do, well more power to you I guess. I'll be waiting to F3 the ever living snot out of you the second you're spotted lol

Edited by HeathenForay

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Well said. I for one am tired of Gimmick ships. Especially made up gimmick ships.

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Thanks alot to everyone for their constructive commentary and polite tone. I started this topic as a comment to one of the other threads but I had too much to say:Smile_teethhappy:. That said, I am really curious to see how the playerbase will react to the introduction of the ship. I can already picture battles with all Asashio lineups in the DD slots :cap_haloween:.

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Think Asashio would have been better as more traditional in game  IJN DD with a less gimmicky nature. If they wanted to gimmick the ship why not just hand it Defensive AA Consumable or something like that?  Since some CVs love shadowing DDs with fighters to keep them perma spotted unless the DD proves it is able to start burning down those annoying fighters in which case the CV with leave the DD alone.

20 Km Deep Water Torps is going to be a real turn off to buyers because look how Pan Asian DDs turned out... ( I did not use Pan Asian because of the DWT not being able to clear smoked DDs or deny DDs entry to caps.)

Plus the fact you are annoying the player base so much, Wargaming might want to remember the old saying that there is beauty in simplicity at times. 

I already am placing anti Torp counter measures in some of my BB Captain skill sets and some BBs carry hydro, my Cruisers are very capable DD hunters and are standing by, and my DDs will have fun hunting as well. The few players that buy an Asashio will likely hate it because I am likely not the only one that will go on enemy Asashio killing spree when it is released. Lol a DD with Deep Water Torps can be practically “ unarmed” when attacked.

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